In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes: >--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote: >> >>There is little sense of community or common cause among the gods of >>Celandra. In their own little sections of the Dreaming each is supreme >>and independent, and that carries over into their dealings with each >>other in the world. Each cult is highly independent, and, while >>temporary alliances and distinct boundaries do exist, each cult >>competes with all others trying to make itself supreme and the only >>cult. This creates the situation where we have cults dedicated to >>single deities in an area dominant over many small cults. Thus, we >>cannot speak of the "pantheons" in the sense of related gods. The >>"gods of Parglug" are NOT a related set of gods, but simply those gods >>worshipped individually by he people who call themselves Parglug. > >I would disagree here. The cults of the various gods are, in general, >not out to become the One True Church, and the reason lies in one of >the basic Laws of the Universe. The gods and their priests use >Authority magic, not Material Essence. The Mages of Mir use both >Authority and Essence magic, but rarely if ever draw on Authority >directly from a god; they see the necessary sacrifices and requirements >for dealing with a god to be too difficult. When the Mir draw on >Authority magic, they usually do their bargaining with what we would >call spirits, angels, daemons(in the classical Greek sense), devils, or >oni, beings which are several steps down the pyramid from the gods. > >In any event, a god cannot give its priests and/or worshippers the >power to affect things that the god has no authority over. Using Lucia >as an example, her priests and priestesses may create light(which may >be used to temporarily blind enemies), detect intentional falsehoods, >compel a person to speak truthfully, recall any information after a >mere glance, heal mental illnesses, and punish wrongdoers in a just >manner (often by forcing the wrongdoer to confront his or her >long-buried conscience). However, Lucians can not use their light to >burn (Lucia has no Authority over heat or fire); can not heal the body; >and possess no power over plants, animals, water, earth, air, or >anything else, for that matter. A cult of a single god cannot >convincingly claim to be the One True Church when its patron has no >Authority over large areas of the Universe. It has been established that the gods have more control over their cults than the cults have ability to operate independently. Thus, it cannot be argued that a cult's portrayal of a particular god is contrary to the wishes of the god. I believe you also underestimate the, "if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail" factor. Indeed, exclusive authority is _more_ likely to increase competition because the gods involved don't see the utility of the other authority. >Why, then, one may ask, do the gods not try to take one another's >Authority, leading to consolidation, and a single religion. The answer >lies in the history of the Eerith and the Abomination Alatta. For a >priest to use his god's Authority to perform magic requires the god's >consent, which is usually contingent on the priest's adherence to >certain rules. The taking of Authority without consent, the stealing or >usurpation of Authority, never ends well for the thief. The gods are >jealous of their Authority; while each god tends to be very focused on >their areas of Authority, they will always unite against a Being who >tries to take Authority from one of their number. > >How does this affect the relations between cults on Celandra? >Ironically, some of the worst strife is between cults who worship the >same Being, but under different names or with different doctrine, but >this sort of behavior is purely human. Cults whose patrons cover areas >that are in opposition to each other tend not to get along. Demerhaze >and Lucia are a classic example. Some cults are close in relationship; >the farmers who worship Arrumanthus also worship Marmdal, who can send >drought or flood if ignored, but can also send good weather if asked >nicely. Worship of one deity does not exclude the worship of all other >deities, only certain others. Unfortunately this simply doesn't work with the background. If this were true there would be sects devoted to multiple gods. Such sects don't exist. Gods should set up alliances, accepting temporary ebb and flow in their cults. This also doesn't happen. What needs to be explained is why so many cults are devoted to only a single god, and why those cults do not seem subject to change. I think you're also overlooking that there needs to be some contact in order for there to be conflict. In the cases of Lucia and Demerhaze, they simply don't have any points of contact for them to come in conflict over. (This would change if either was a significant cult, but this isn't the case.) >Many cultures have religions with pantheons of gods, such as the >Kasovians and the Cedonians. However, the relationships between the >gods in those pantheons are not necessarily reflective of the true >state of affairs in the Dreaming. > >Most of the gods recognize the fact that they need each other and that >involuntary consolidation is Not A Good Thing For Anyone. Consolidation, no, but there are many indications that gods can be destroyed. >>HOWEVER, (and a big however it is), there are two factors currently in >>operation to reverse this attitude. First, upon the continent of >>Qaiyore, there is a strong current towards monotheism. Historically, >>every god would like to have itself seen as "the one true god." >>However the end of this tendency can be seen in a belief which ends up >>cutting out _all_ of the gods of the Dreaming in favor of a >>philosophical or impersonal unity. (And eventually identifying all the >>gods as demonic, though _that_ trend has barely started.) > >I disagree. Monotheism is not a natural belief system or mode of >thought for settled agricultural societies such as those found in the >MidSea. It is, however, almost universal that pastoral nomads in tribal >societies (like the Sinari) are monotheist, calling all other gods than >their tribal god as "demons". To someone from Cedonia or Torphan or >Tanimbar, the notion of a single god is bizarre. A mage from Mir who >has worked with the Dreaming would go one step farther, and call the >notion of Monotheism illogical. And the Vra'al and Eerith, who are from >the Dreaming, would probably not understand the concept, or at least >not to any depth. This doesn't match the facts. Videssia has stumbled along with a monotheistic religion for some time. A monotheistic religion is being accepted in Cedonia. The Eerith are naturally monotheistically oriented. THOSE are facts. >Also, there's no need for a god who is a purely philosophic concept >when the real gods provide proof of their existence. Unfortunately monotheistic religions do exist. Those Monotheistic religions don't seem to have the support of "real" gods. Thus the above statement is either false to fact or irrelevant. >>Second is the fact that powers from _outside_ Celandra's dreaming have >>begun to appear. (Juuso identified Feroze as being such an entity.) >>Many of these outsiders are both organized and hostile, and must be >>met with organization if the entities are to maintain their dominance. > >No argument with that. ------ Note that I have no particular interest in the scenario I presented. It was made in the interest of explaining the following: 1) Monotheistic cults can survive and even thrive. 2) Almost all cults are devoted to individual gods. (The Ka'Shari are the only known exception, and we know so little about their religion that they may not be an exception after all). 3) In areas predominantly devoted to a particular religion there are numerous small and secretive cults EXCEPT where the main religion is monotheistic. 4) Even within a culture, the cults of the individual gods are in competition with each other. 5) There are no signs of lesser power gods cooperating to match the power of greater gods. (Again, with the possible exception of the Ka'Shari.) 6) The gods have more control over their cults than the cults have ability to operate independently. If anyone can provide another scenario to explain the above facts I'd like to see it. Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
