--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, > andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes: > > >--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote: > I think you're also overlooking that there needs to be some contact > in > order for there to be conflict. In the cases of Lucia and Demerhaze, > they simply don't have any points of contact for them to come in > conflict over. (This would change if either was a significant cult, > but > this isn't the case.) No, there is a point of contact, and calling them insignificant isn't very accurate. Both Lucia and Demerhaze have, as part of their "portfolios", an interest in punishing wrongdoers. They come into conflict on methods and means. As far as significance goes, the Order of Lucia has always been a major force in Cedonia since the end of the old empire, but persecution by Cedonia's ruling class has driven the Order to take a low profile on more than one occasion. > >Many cultures have religions with pantheons of gods, such as the > >Kasovians and the Cedonians. However, the relationships between the > >gods in those pantheons are not necessarily reflective of the true > >state of affairs in the Dreaming. > > > >Most of the gods recognize the fact that they need each other and > that > >involuntary consolidation is Not A Good Thing For Anyone. > > Consolidation, no, but there are many indications that gods can be > destroyed. > > >>HOWEVER, (and a big however it is), there are two factors currently > in > >>operation to reverse this attitude. First, upon the continent of > >>Qaiyore, there is a strong current towards monotheism. > Historically, > >>every god would like to have itself seen as "the one true god." > >>However the end of this tendency can be seen in a belief which ends > up > >>cutting out _all_ of the gods of the Dreaming in favor of a > >>philosophical or impersonal unity. (And eventually identifying all > the > >>gods as demonic, though _that_ trend has barely started.) > > > >I disagree. Monotheism is not a natural belief system or mode of > >thought for settled agricultural societies such as those found in > the > >MidSea. It is, however, almost universal that pastoral nomads in > tribal > >societies (like the Sinari) are monotheist, calling all other gods > than > >their tribal god as "demons". To someone from Cedonia or Torphan or > >Tanimbar, the notion of a single god is bizarre. A mage from Mir who > >has worked with the Dreaming would go one step farther, and call the > >notion of Monotheism illogical. And the Vra'al and Eerith, who are > from > >the Dreaming, would probably not understand the concept, or at least > >not to any depth. > > This doesn't match the facts. Videssia has stumbled along with a > monotheistic religion for some time. A monotheistic religion is being > accepted in Cedonia. The Eerith are naturally monotheistically > oriented. > THOSE are facts. Not all of them. You're confusing Cedonia with Kaeir. IIRC, one of Kaeir's recent actions had them coming into contact with a monotheistic culture in the far north of the continent, and bringing the religion back with them. Cedonia has always been polytheist; when the Empress Yzara was persecuting the Order of Lucia, she did so not because she did not believe in Lucia's divinity, but because she saw the Order's secular agenda as a threat to her power. As far as Videssia goes, based on their past history, "stumbled" is the operative word in that sentence. Eerithian monotheism may be a matter of perspective--coming from the Dreaming originally as they do, labelling anything other than the Creator or Shaper as God would probably seem silly. > >Also, there's no need for a god who is a purely philosophic concept > >when the real gods provide proof of their existence. > > Unfortunately monotheistic religions do exist. Those Monotheistic > religions don't seem to have the support of "real" gods. Thus the > above > statement is either false to fact or irrelevant. > > >>Second is the fact that powers from _outside_ Celandra's dreaming > have > >>begun to appear. (Juuso identified Feroze as being such an entity.) > >>Many of these outsiders are both organized and hostile, and must be > >>met with organization if the entities are to maintain their > dominance. > > > >No argument with that. > > ------ > > Note that I have no particular interest in the scenario I presented. > It > was made in the interest of explaining the following: > > 1) Monotheistic cults can survive and even thrive. Do they? Videssia is, IIRC, in chaos(could be wrong), and the Sinari got clobbered. When empirical evidence of multiple gods is obtainable, how can monotheism be defensible? > 2) Almost all cults are devoted to individual gods. (The Ka'Shari are > the only known exception, and we know so little about their religion > that they may not be an exception after all). > > 3) In areas predominantly devoted to a particular religion there are > numerous small and secretive cults EXCEPT where the main religion is > monotheistic. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you expand on this point? > 4) Even within a culture, the cults of the individual gods are in > competition with each other. I don't think this is true. > 5) There are no signs of lesser power gods cooperating to match the > power of greater gods. (Again, with the possible exception of the > Ka'Shari.) You mean "matching" as in "ganging up on"? > 6) The gods have more control over their cults than the cults have > ability to operate independently. Again, I don't think this is necessarily true. It may depend on how "hands on" the god is. > If anyone can provide another scenario to explain the above facts I'd > like to see it. > > Jefferson (Exquaestio) > http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! 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