[Cel] Ban Horroth Actions

The Determinants of this society ain't complete and was that the only 
Actions that has been done with this society shown on the website?
oh, anything else i need to know? i went through the past actions of my 
neighbours, only the Aixal seems to have contacted the Ban Horroth, unless i 
am wrong. and the border dispute, does that ruin relations with them?


Action 1 - Establish a intelligence agency

It was decided to establish some form of Intelligence Agency, runned by the 
Scouts, since Ban Horroth will have a hard time to spy with their physical 
looks. Scouts will be constantly sent at various neighbouring societies like 
the Shinari, Aixelsydan, Razanians and Milakanur to keep an eye on them and 
study them. If any of their militaries or whatever moves towards or near the 
mountains, the Scouts are to warn the council. They are also to avoid 
contact with those societies unless told otherwize by the Council.


Task: Establishing a Intelligence agency
Secrecy: Yes
Actor: Scouts
Primary Determinant: Survival
Mods: +previous scouting
      +various contacts

Action 2 - Improve Magic

Caste of Religion will improve their use of magic among their Shamans, 
especially with rumours about the evil in the Shinari desert.

Task: Improve Magic
Secrecy: Yes
Actor: Caste of Religion
Primary Determinant: Survival
Mods: (it seems the Ban Horroth missing determinants, would like to develope 
this society more)

Action 3 - Improve Military

Caste of War as decided to improve its military, to be adaptable in fighting 
against any of the neighbouring Societies. Also to improve military 
equipment.

Task: Improve Military
Secrecy: Yes (ain't the Ban Horroth good in hiding anyway?)
Actor: Caste of War
Primary Determinant: Survival
Mods: +past knowledge of the neighbouring societies

Action 4 - Establish Trade

Caste of Trade as decided to try establish trade with Razanians. They are 
sure that the Razanians would be interested in various raw resources.

Task: Establish Trade with the razanians
Secrecy: None
Actor: Caste of Trade
Primary Determinant: Trade
Mods: +Resources to trade


Love,
-Melanie


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[Cel] Ban Horroth Actions

>Action 4 - Establish Trade
>
>Caste of Trade as decided to try establish trade with Razanians. They are
>sure that the Razanians would be interested in various raw resources.
>
>Task: Establish Trade with the razanians
>Secrecy: None
>Actor: Caste of Trade
>Primary Determinant: Trade
>Mods: +Resources to trade
>

Funny that i tried to do the same before, but the the horroth close the 
doors to the Citadel on me :P   ...well, the razanians did try to have a 
alliance with them and have them help fight the Aryisa :P so figures...

hey, since the determinants is not complete, than you complete it :)
Also, like the Ban Horroth since no other society, including the Shinari, 
can get to the Razanian Coast by land, since the mountain is in the way and 
need to get through the Ban Horroth. your society have a natural defence 
bonus because your situated in the Mountains and that your society have a 
great knowledge of the Rim and knows how to defend it. thats what protected 
the coast from the Cedonian Empire...also means the razanians has no beef 
against the, either, hmm But of course, the Draconians, ancestors of the Ban 
Horroth, did help Mir inavde the coast, but thats way back :P Razanians 
hates Mir even today, unless they help them remove the asagmari...then 
relations may improve. i love this game :)  unpredictable and you also get 
to control most of the details, base on the determinants and so on.

well its nice that we finally have someone play the ban horroth...just don't 
get any ideas of attacking the coast, blah :P

-LordLMP
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[Cel] Ban Horroth Actions

>
>Funny that i tried to do the same before, but the the horroth close the
>doors to the Citadel on me :P   ...well, the razanians did try to have a
>alliance with them and have them help fight the Aryisa :P so figures...
>

Oh? your razanians must of insulted them, giggles :)

i do think the Ban Horroth should start coming out a bit, but also be ready 
for any societies they attract to the mountains. The Mountains seem to be 
Rich with resources, so the Ban Horroth would want to defend it. And for the 
Shanari, yes, another reason why the Ban Horroth should prep its military 
for any aggression thet may do their way...

>hey, since the determinants is not complete, than you complete it :)

yes, but how do i do that?

>well its nice that we finally have someone play the ban horroth...just 
>don't
>get any ideas of attacking the coast, blah :P
>
>-LordLMP
>

No, unless the razanians show any intentions to invade the Mountains.


Love,
-Melanie
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[Cel] Ban Horroth Actions

> >hey, since the determinants is not complete, than you complete it :)
>
> yes, but how do i do that?

There's some information on point-based society creation at
http://www.hut.fi/~vesanto/ihfudge/pointbased.html

(The main IH fudge page is at http://www.hut.fi/~vesanto/ihfudge/ and there
are sub-pages that discuss the meaning of the determinants, as well as the
meaning of the scale).

Basically, your determinants range from -4 to +4 in most circumstances.  You
can push down one area in order to prop up others.  For instance, the King's
influence has been pushed down somewhat in favor of the Viseur.

Also, it looks like a special "elite" force of troops is intended.  If your
general military determinants end up being (for instance) Size 0 (Mediocre)
Force 1 (Fair), then the Caste of War could end up as Size -1 (Poor) Force 2
(Good), or even Size -2 Force 3.  As long as it evens out to the main
number, it's OK.  (I think.)

For the economic values, it might make sense to have more resources and less
exploitation - the Ban Horroth are not particularly industrial, it seems.

In the case of humanities, given a fairly small insular culture, the Ban
Horroth may have very low Diversity of humanities (only one tradition) -
which in turn gives more points to the other factors such as sophistication.

Finally, don't feel wedded to any of the information on the page - IMHO, if
something doesn't fit (a Trade caste, for instance?  Perhaps a Gatherer
caste?) just work on it till it fits in with your vision of the culture.
Many things are easily explained as the "incorrect ideas of outlanders" for
those of us writing insular societies. ;)

--Sam Gorton
(Player of Milakanur)

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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

.hey, since the determinants is not complete, than you complete it :)
.yes, but how do i do that?

Sam gave great instructions and references in his post. He is 100% correct
but I'll add my support.  Make your numbers fit the society, not the other
way around.  Play the society as you envision it.  If the numbers don't
match, we'll change them.  If you aren't sure what to change them to, we'll
figure it out.  Whatever you do, play first and juggle numbers later.  If
that means that all the determinants of the scaled-folk are redone, so be
it.  I don't think I've ever made a secret of my love of role-playing and a
good story over game mechanics any day.

I also hope it's obvious that this applies to everyone, not just the Ban.  I
can't speak for Jason (although I'm fairly sure he'll agree) but it's my
opinion that there are some events in the course of a society's development
that just can't be summed up in gameplay.  There are times when you just
have to bend the rules.  After all, if the game was perfect, we could use a
computer instead of a GM.  Our goal is a fun game and a well-defined
continuum of societies, not power gaming.

(evil grin) Yes, I'm telling you that you can cheat if it's done for a good
story.  We'll keep things equitable and settle disputes but the stories and
the individual players' vision for their peoples are what drives the game.
Shoot, look at the yearly events and disasters--need a natural disaster or
your ruler assassinated?  Send me a note "under the wire" and we'll see what
we can do.  I'd much rather have player driven issues push the game forward
rather than have to create a "common enemy" or the like.  Once the
Eerith/Sinari war has ended, what will your society do?  Do they even care
now?  I know that both Jason and I have things which we would like to insert
into the progression of the world so I have to believe that other people do
to.  Ante up and drive the bus (I think that was a mixed metaphor, oh well).

I'm pretty sure this is all redundant but I felt like saying it anyway.
Game progress has felt pretty heavy-handed lately since two of the dominant
societies fell under GM control and the Sanari went NPS.  I just wanted to
remind everyone where the real fires of Qai's future burn.

Oh, and Melanie, welcome to the game.

M. Keaton


"I want to warn you before we get up here that sex sells."
     "Well sure but what does that have to do with the dealer room?"
"She's not that good an artist, you see but..."
     "Holy cow, how does she stand upright with those things?"
"Told you."

--DG explains GenCon art sales and male market demographic to MK, August
2000--


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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

?
>
>Sam gave great instructions and references in his post. He is 100% correct
>but I'll add my support.  Make your numbers fit the society, not the other
>way around.  Play the society as you envision it.  If the numbers don't
>match, we'll change them.  If you aren't sure what to change them to, we'll
>figure it out.  Whatever you do, play first and juggle numbers later.  If
>that means that all the determinants of the scaled-folk are redone, so be
>it.  I don't think I've ever made a secret of my love of role-playing and a
>good story over game mechanics any day.
>

Okay, i played and want to change the razanians population scope :P would 
make things bit more sence, atleast in my mind :P and fit the past actions 
like outnumbering the Asagmari?


>I also hope it's obvious that this applies to everyone, not just the Ban.  
>I
>can't speak for Jason (although I'm fairly sure he'll agree) but it's my
>opinion that there are some events in the course of a society's development
>that just can't be summed up in gameplay.  There are times when you just
>have to bend the rules.  After all, if the game was perfect, we could use a
>computer instead of a GM.  Our goal is a fun game and a well-defined
>continuum of societies, not power gaming.
>

Yep yep, me just waiting to get rid of the Aryisa society off the Razanian 
Coast before developing the society more :P
but thats problem i would think...it is originally Razanian land and if the 
razanians is successful in conquering Aryisa, then the razanians would make 
sure they don't rise up...and will be hard for the asagmari to start a 
resistence where the Razanian Front knows of the good hiding spots and know 
how and where too look to stop it....anyway, the total population of 
asagmari would lower...cassualties of war and of hatred towards them.  Of 
course, the asagmari will be completly gone...but may end up being used as 
slaves...temporally, for a short period of time to rebuild everything.  
Anyway, the Razanians is a interesting society to develop more through 
gameplay, but Aryasa in the way :P

>we can do.  I'd much rather have player driven issues push the game forward
>rather than have to create a "common enemy" or the like.  Once the
>Eerith/Sinari war has ended, what will your society do?  Do they even care
>now?  I know that both Jason and I have things which we would like to 
>insert
>into the progression of the world so I have to believe that other people do
>to.  Ante up and drive the bus (I think that was a mixed metaphor, oh 
>well).
>

Do remember that the razanians don't give a hoot about the Shinari since 
they have their own big war at the moment :P  Way i see, the two major wars 
going on in Qaiyore at the moment is the Shinari War and the 
Razanian/Aryisan War. rest are simple skirmishs/small battles way i see it 
:P



>I'm pretty sure this is all redundant but I felt like saying it anyway.
>Game progress has felt pretty heavy-handed lately since two of the dominant
>societies fell under GM control and the Sanari went NPS.  I just wanted to
>remind everyone where the real fires of Qai's future burn.
>

Dominant societies? I don't see the eerith as dominant and Mir is just the 
most well know, society of crazy sorcerers :P Cendonia is one dominant 
society and the Torphan Empire...the Shinari is just the most Agressive at 
the moment.


-LordLMP
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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

Sorry I have not posted lately.  I was kicked off the list.  I would like to end
the ear be the end of next week.

Louis Pasztor wrote:

> ?
> >
> >Sam gave great instructions and references in his post. He is 100% correct
> >but I'll add my support.  Make your numbers fit the society, not the other
> >way around.  Play the society as you envision it.  If the numbers don't
> >match, we'll change them.  If you aren't sure what to change them to, we'll
> >figure it out.  Whatever you do, play first and juggle numbers later.  If
> >that means that all the determinants of the scaled-folk are redone, so be
> >it.  I don't think I've ever made a secret of my love of role-playing and a
> >good story over game mechanics any day.
> >
>
> Okay, i played and want to change the razanians population scope :P would
> make things bit more sence, atleast in my mind :P and fit the past actions
> like outnumbering the Asagmari?

I would have to study it a little more before I change any populations.

> >I also hope it's obvious that this applies to everyone, not just the Ban.
> >I
> >can't speak for Jason (although I'm fairly sure he'll agree) but it's my
> >opinion that there are some events in the course of a society's development
> >that just can't be summed up in gameplay.  There are times when you just
> >have to bend the rules.  After all, if the game was perfect, we could use a
> >computer instead of a GM.  Our goal is a fun game and a well-defined
> >continuum of societies, not power gaming.
> >
>
> Yep yep, me just waiting to get rid of the Aryisa society off the Razanian
> Coast before developing the society more :P
> but thats problem i would think...it is originally Razanian land and if the
> razanians is successful in conquering Aryisa, then the razanians would make
> sure they don't rise up...and will be hard for the asagmari to start a
> resistence where the Razanian Front knows of the good hiding spots and know
> how and where too look to stop it....anyway, the total population of
> asagmari would lower...cassualties of war and of hatred towards them.  Of
> course, the asagmari will be completly gone...but may end up being used as
> slaves...temporally, for a short period of time to rebuild everything.
> Anyway, the Razanians is a interesting society to develop more through
> gameplay, but Aryasa in the way :P

The Socitey will not didaper they may become wandering nomads again but it will
still be their.

> >we can do.  I'd much rather have player driven issues push the game forward
> >rather than have to create a "common enemy" or the like.  Once the
> >Eerith/Sinari war has ended, what will your society do?  Do they even care
> >now?  I know that both Jason and I have things which we would like to
> >insert
> >into the progression of the world so I have to believe that other people do
> >to.  Ante up and drive the bus (I think that was a mixed metaphor, oh
> >well).
> >
>
> Do remember that the razanians don't give a hoot about the Shinari since
> they have their own big war at the moment :P  Way i see, the two major wars
> going on in Qaiyore at the moment is the Shinari War and the
> Razanian/Aryisan War. rest are simple skirmishs/small battles way i see it
> :P
>
> >I'm pretty sure this is all redundant but I felt like saying it anyway.
> >Game progress has felt pretty heavy-handed lately since two of the dominant
> >societies fell under GM control and the Sanari went NPS.  I just wanted to
> >remind everyone where the real fires of Qai's future burn.
> >
>
> Dominant societies? I don't see the eerith as dominant and Mir is just the
> most well know, society of crazy sorcerers :P Cendonia is one dominant
> society and the Torphan Empire...the Shinari is just the most Agressive at
> the moment.

Mir not dominant.  Ha.  That is were we disagree.  Trust me Mir is one that
list.  So far the list at the moment is.  Torphan, Cedonia, Mir, Sinari, and the
Eerith.

Jason

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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

To stick my 2 cents in here for a moment.  I am surprised that anyone
would call Mir a non dominant society.  Even run by the GM it sticks its
nose in everywhere.  If it was run by a PC who was not a GM there is a
good chance that this society would throw game balance out of whack.
Their mages are way too powerful compared to the rest of the world and
they have the ability to meddle far too much.

Joel (King Villard - Burcancy)

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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

>
>I would have to study it a little more before I change any populations.
>

What kind of study? not like will be giving me great advantages, just would 
make more sence.

>
>The Socitey will not didaper they may become wandering nomads again but it 
>will
>still be their.
>

Ok, but even then, may still have some Asagmari on the coast afterwards too. 
Hey, why can't they go sail to that Island west of the coast to start up 
their society again? Not like the Razanians will go after them by ships :P  
only want them off the coast.

>Mir not dominant.  Ha.  That is were we disagree.  Trust me Mir is one that
>list.  So far the list at the moment is.  Torphan, Cedonia, Mir, Sinari, 
>and the
>Eerith.
>

Sure sure, the Razanians kick their but and they can again :P any society 
that tries conquering the coast will have a hard time doing and keeping it 
after :P  magic or not. Also, Mir had the Draconians to help them conquer 
the coast way back too. Sinari ain't dominants, their nomads!  Razanians 
would kick their butt too if they came to the coast...anyway, teh desert 
people will have trouble getting through the mountains and they have no 
ships. Only damage they can do is capture and destroy the Razanian Port on 
the Kel'Shire Coast...and their main military dudes at other side of the 
dessert.

-LordLMP

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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

Louis Pasztor wrote:


> >Mir not dominant.  Ha.  That is were we disagree.  Trust me Mir is one that
> >list.  So far the list at the moment is.  Torphan, Cedonia, Mir, Sinari,
> >and the
> >Eerith.
> >
>
> Sure sure, the Razanians kick their but and they can again :P any society
> that tries conquering the coast will have a hard time doing and keeping it
> after :P  magic or not. Also, Mir had the Draconians to help them conquer
> the coast way back too. Sinari ain't dominants, their nomads!  Razanians
> would kick their butt too if they came to the coast...anyway, teh desert
> people will have trouble getting through the mountains and they have no
> ships. Only damage they can do is capture and destroy the Razanian Port on
> the Kel'Shire Coast...and their main military dudes at other side of the
> dessert.

Ha.  The only but your people have ever kicked was Aryisa.  If it was not for
the mass rebellion at that time, and the internal problems you would not have
won against Mir.    Trust me if I desided to your Society would be hard presed
to stop me. :)  Remember I can be the Invisible enemy.  Esbesilally against a
society that has just a few more people then I have Sorcerers. *evil grin*

Sincerly
Jason


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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

Sure sure, the Razanians kick their but and they can again :P any
society
that tries conquering the coast will have a hard time doing and keeping
it
after :P  magic or not. Also, Mir had the Draconians to help them
conquer
the coast way back too. Sinari ain't dominants, their nomads!  Razanians

would kick their butt too if they came to the coast...anyway, teh desert

people will have trouble getting through the mountains and they have no
ships. Only damage they can do is capture and destroy the Razanian Port
on
the Kel'Shire Coast...and their main military dudes at other side of the

dessert.

Dude, you write some really good stuff and if you harp at a GM or other
people about stuff like population levels you might sometimes gets
different results then you want.
    Your boasting about kicking peoples' butts is great writing and I
only hope people realize that you must be kidding.  Challenging people
in a game with so much latitude might encourage someone to see how
inventive they can get just for the hell of it.  Anyone who wants could
spend a secret action or two for a year (or more) can send assassins or
anything else they want to affect your country and you could do little
to stop it.
    And you are inviting someone to do it?  All they need is an excuse
for game purposes and those are not hard to figure out.


Joel (King Villard - Burcancy)


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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

--- Louis Pasztor  wrote:


> the coast way back too. Sinari ain't dominants, their nomads!  > 
> -LordLMP
> 

Sure, the Sinari/Shanari are nomads . . . the Arabs in Mohammed's day were
nomads, too. Think on that.


=====
"Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration, don't fail me now!"
                             --Elwood Blues


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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

>Dude, you write some really good stuff and if you harp at a GM or other
>people about stuff like population levels you might sometimes gets
>different results then you want.
>     Your boasting about kicking peoples' butts is great writing and I
>only hope people realize that you must be kidding.  Challenging people
>in a game with so much latitude might encourage someone to see how
>inventive they can get just for the hell of it.  Anyone who wants could
>spend a secret action or two for a year (or more) can send assassins or
>anything else they want to affect your country and you could do little
>to stop it.
>     And you are inviting someone to do it?  All they need is an excuse
>for game purposes and those are not hard to figure out.
>
>

Says who i am challenging? I am sure others can do that, but doing it over 
personal matters will ruin the tone of the game. We are like gods playing 
out our societies. We control their fate. To find an excuse would be hard, 
Razanians have done nothing to other societies, except ones that invade the 
Coast, their homes and lands. They pretty much keep to themselves. I don't 
plan to go around conquering :P  except Aryisa, which belongs to the 
razanians.
I am also saying Mir ain't as powerful as before. They conquered most of 
Qaiyore because they had help from the Dark Elves, Dragons and so on from 
the Dreaming. They had that floating City. They had more Sorcerers to play 
with, aswell a military. Sorcerers are not gods, they can't just go 
somewhere and wipe out a entire society, or else, they wouldn't go about 
asking for help to fight the Sinari. On the coast, its pretty to 
pertend/disguise your a razanian, magic or not... and they still don't trust 
magic. After that Warlock visiting the coast the other turn, their eyes are 
in a look out. They need the help of the Eerith. Another thing, Mir ain't as 
evil as before, so blah :P
What prevented from other societies to conquer Mir over the years is that 
they situated at a island, easy position to defend. would need mass fleet of 
transports to bring troops to the island and doubt they will even reach it. 
Mir Sorcerers would be able to destroy the ships before they land.

-LordLMP
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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

Its true that it all out of game talk so it does not matter.  On the
other hand, the game is long term and if someone determined that you
were a threat down the road then appropriate actions could be started.
    Mir plays long term and I would always advise concern about what
they are planning.  They may not have the troops to  conquer but they
could give any country they wanted a lot of difficulties, enough to
change governments or determinants if they choose.
    I am not saying Mir is evil or as powerful as before, but they still
remain one of the most powerful forces on the board.  It is too bad
their location is so easy to defend, it would be interesting to see
someone challenge them.

Joel

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[Cel] Ban Horroth determinants

Let me clear up a few things.

Louis Pasztor wrote:

> >Dude, you write some really good stuff and if you harp at a GM or other
> >people about stuff like population levels you might sometimes gets
> >different results then you want.
> >     Your boasting about kicking peoples' butts is great writing and I
> >only hope people realize that you must be kidding.  Challenging people
> >in a game with so much latitude might encourage someone to see how
> >inventive they can get just for the hell of it.  Anyone who wants could
> >spend a secret action or two for a year (or more) can send assassins or
> >anything else they want to affect your country and you could do little
> >to stop it.
> >     And you are inviting someone to do it?  All they need is an excuse
> >for game purposes and those are not hard to figure out.
> >
> >
>
> Says who i am challenging? I am sure others can do that, but doing it over
> personal matters will ruin the tone of the game. We are like gods playing
> out our societies. We control their fate. To find an excuse would be hard,
> Razanians have done nothing to other societies, except ones that invade the
> Coast, their homes and lands. They pretty much keep to themselves. I don't
> plan to go around conquering :P  except Aryisa, which belongs to the
> razanians.

Trust me.  I could think up several reason to invaide if I wanted to.

> I am also saying Mir ain't as powerful as before. They conquered most of
> Qaiyore because they had help from the Dark Elves, Dragons and so on from
> the Dreaming. They had that floating City.

Okay lets clear this up here.  Yes I had the dragons.  I conquered over half the
content alone with the dragons nothing elses.  I only used the Dark elves, The
flaoting city and the Eerith (Keaton) to take Razianan Coast and Celpalar.  And
I only bothered with the Razianan coast becouse its a staging ground to take
Celpalar, but once I had Celpalar Razianan was not worth anthing more.  Also
remember that at this time I had the best nave on the oceans I could have
invaded you by ship and still have won. May have taken longer but Mir still
would have won.  Okay.  Much of my conquest was done by MY magic not other
people.

> They had more Sorcerers to play
> with, aswell a military.

That as well is not true.  My Sorecer population never went down it grew with my
the rest of population.  So techniqule their are more also not to mention that
about two hundred years ago they start leting women join which really increased
their population.

> Sorcerers are not gods, they can't just go
> somewhere and wipe out a entire society, or else, they wouldn't go about
> asking for help to fight the Sinari.

The Sorcerers could have handled the Sinari it was help against their god we
asking.  Remember that.  He is their and he does get involved in the afairs of
his people.  The Sinari we can handel the god gives us some problem.

> On the coast, its pretty to
> pertend/disguise your a razanian, magic or not... and they still don't trust
> magic. After that Warlock visiting the coast the other turn, their eyes are
> in a look out. They need the help of the Eerith. Another thing, Mir ain't as
> evil as before, so blah :P

You don't know me.  Besides Mir was never evil. so I return the blah.

> What prevented from other societies to conquer Mir over the years is that
> they situated at a island, easy position to defend. would need mass fleet of
> transports to bring troops to the island and doubt they will even reach it.
> Mir Sorcerers would be able to destroy the ships before they land.

Yea your write their but you  also forgot the Crown of Mir.  It makes Mir almost
impentribale.  Even if they get past the crown they would not stadn a chance
agains the waiting Sorcerers.  : P

Sincerly
Jason

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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

Good evening to all of you. Since our dear GM mentioned my country I join the
fray...


> > Says who i am challenging? I am sure others can do that, but doing it over
> > personal matters will ruin the tone of the game. We are like gods playing
> > out our societies. We control their fate. To find an excuse would be hard,
> > Razanians have done nothing to other societies, except ones that invade the
> > Coast, their homes and lands. They pretty much keep to themselves. I don't
> > plan to go around conquering :P  except Aryisa, which belongs to the
> > razanians.

It is a political posturing. Arysia has a legal governement which is recognized by
nearly the whole of Quaiyore, it's not a pirate state. The obliteration of Arysia
would set a very dangerous precedent. Just saying that to warn...

> Trust me.  I could think up several reason to invaide if I wanted to.

Like: I'm stronger than you... You smell like a razanian... And I have a lot of
sorcerers to spend... And I am a GM !

> > I am also saying Mir ain't as powerful as before. They conquered most of
> > Qaiyore because they had help from the Dark Elves, Dragons and so on from
> > the Dreaming. They had that floating City.
>
> Okay lets clear this up here.  Yes I had the dragons.  I conquered over half the
> content alone with the dragons nothing elses.

I wonder why use "I", the game wasn't started then ?? It's history. Like what the
Mirs did thousand years ago was of your determinant Jason ?

> I only used the Dark elves, The
> flaoting city and the Eerith (Keaton) to take Razianan Coast and Celpalar.  And
> I only bothered with the Razianan coast becouse its a staging ground to take
> Celpalar, but once I had Celpalar Razianan was not worth anthing more.

You see, dear Razanian, that's how much he loves you: a staging ground. But I feel
flatered to be the center of so much attention: and tell us, Jason, what did the
Mirs found on Celpalar that our avarean ancestors left ?  It may have something to
do with our modern problem

>  My Sorecer population never went down it grew with my the rest of population.  So
> techniqule their are more also not to mention that about two hundred years ago
> they start leting women join which really increased
> their population.

If that is so, why your power is still confined to a single island (however nice the
weather is there...) ?

> > Sorcerers are not gods, they can't just go
> > somewhere and wipe out a entire society, or else, they wouldn't go about
> > asking for help to fight the Sinari.
>
> The Sorcerers could have handled the Sinari it was help against their god we
> asking.  Remember that.  He is their and he does get involved in the afairs of
> his people.  The Sinari we can handel the god gives us some problem.

That's were I don't get it: we sent armies to fight the sinaris. But this won't help
against a god. You, Jason, with your magic, your Dreaming and all your artifact seem
much better equipped to fight a mystical fight than our spearmen, however brave and
skilled they may be.

>  Another thing, Mir ain't as
> > evil as before, so blah :P
>
> You don't know me.  Besides Mir was never evil. so I return the blah.

Exactly. How do you know how much evil is warming up there ? Admitedly the Ancients
Avareans who fought the Mirs with demons were quite evil... but dragons are so
nice...



Yea your write their but you  also forgot the Crown of Mir.  It makes Mir almost

> impentribale.  Even if they get past the crown they would not stadn a chance
> agains the waiting Sorcerers.

Tell us more, for as newbies we don't know about this crown, and artifact coming up
the sleeve tend to have a bad effect on the game.


On a larger scale, you seem very deeply implicated in Mir adventures which is spooky
for us mere players. It's difficult to be a judge and a player at the same time.
Still, you have no choice but to follow on with both jobs.

Good luck...

G. (acting for the State of Celpalar)
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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

I uses I when refuring to Mir becouse I am that attached to it.

Jason

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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

Guillaume Ménager wrote:

> Good evening to all of you. Since our dear GM mentioned my country I join the
> fray...
>
> > > Says who i am challenging? I am sure others can do that, but doing it over
> > > personal matters will ruin the tone of the game. We are like gods playing
> > > out our societies. We control their fate. To find an excuse would be hard,
> > > Razanians have done nothing to other societies, except ones that invade the
> > > Coast, their homes and lands. They pretty much keep to themselves. I don't
> > > plan to go around conquering :P  except Aryisa, which belongs to the
> > > razanians.
>
> It is a political posturing. Arysia has a legal governement which is recognized by
> nearly the whole of Quaiyore, it's not a pirate state. The obliteration of Arysia
> would set a very dangerous precedent. Just saying that to warn...
>
> > Trust me.  I could think up several reason to invaide if I wanted to.
>
> Like: I'm stronger than you... You smell like a razanian... And I have a lot of
> sorcerers to spend... And I am a GM !

No actolly none of them are on that list.

> > > I am also saying Mir ain't as powerful as before. They conquered most of
> > > Qaiyore because they had help from the Dark Elves, Dragons and so on from
> > > the Dreaming. They had that floating City.
> >
> > Okay lets clear this up here.  Yes I had the dragons.  I conquered over half the
> > content alone with the dragons nothing elses.
>
> I wonder why use "I", the game wasn't started then ?? It's history. Like what the
> Mirs did thousand years ago was of your determinant Jason ?
>
> > I only used the Dark elves, The
> > flaoting city and the Eerith (Keaton) to take Razianan Coast and Celpalar.  And
> > I only bothered with the Razianan coast becouse its a staging ground to take
> > Celpalar, but once I had Celpalar Razianan was not worth anthing more.
>
> You see, dear Razanian, that's how much he loves you: a staging ground. But I feel
> flatered to be the center of so much attention: and tell us, Jason, what did the
> Mirs found on Celpalar that our avarean ancestors left ?  It may have something to
> do with our modern problem

They were a chalenge to Mirs magical power.

> >  My Sorecer population never went down it grew with my the rest of population.  So
> > techniqule their are more also not to mention that about two hundred years ago
> > they start leting women join which really increased
> > their population.
>
> If that is so, why your power is still confined to a single island (however nice the
> weather is there...) ?

Becouse Cedonia came after Mir and Mir had a slit change of philosiphy.

> > > Sorcerers are not gods, they can't just go
> > > somewhere and wipe out a entire society, or else, they wouldn't go about
> > > asking for help to fight the Sinari.
> >
> > The Sorcerers could have handled the Sinari it was help against their god we
> > asking.  Remember that.  He is their and he does get involved in the afairs of
> > his people.  The Sinari we can handel the god gives us some problem.
>
> That's were I don't get it: we sent armies to fight the sinaris. But this won't help
> against a god. You, Jason, with your magic, your Dreaming and all your artifact seem
> much better equipped to fight a mystical fight than our spearmen, however brave and
> skilled they may be.

:) until its over,  your not getting a peeping at upcomeing attractions.

> >  Another thing, Mir ain't as
> > > evil as before, so blah :P
> >
> > You don't know me.  Besides Mir was never evil. so I return the blah.
>
> Exactly. How do you know how much evil is warming up there ? Admitedly the Ancients
> Avareans who fought the Mirs with demons were quite evil... but dragons are so nice...

I always though so.

> Yea your write their but you  also forgot the Crown of Mir.  It makes Mir almost
> > impentribale.  Even if they get past the crown they would not stadn a chance
> > agains the waiting Sorcerers.
>
> Tell us more, for as newbies we don't know about this crown, and artifact coming up
> the sleeve tend to have a bad effect on the game.

Its was an artifact I brought into play under the old GM.  Its purpose is the defence of
the Isle of Celamyr.  It creates a huge storm around the island which almost no ship can
get through.  Thats a over veiw of it but you get the point.

> On a larger scale, you seem very deeply implicated in Mir adventures which is spooky
> for us mere players. It's difficult to be a judge and a player at the same time.
> Still, you have no choice but to follow on with both jobs.

You have no idea how hard.  Trust me I play fair.  Which is why Mir really stiks to the
things that consen it.  (I have come up with some really nice skims but don't uses
them.)  So you can you can sleep peacefull at night.

Okay.  If this argument goes any farther people might end up at each others throats.  So
you can contiune you it if you want, but no name calling, and no cat fighting.  I have
put in my say so I am done.  Bye.

Jason

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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

>It is a political posturing. Arysia has a legal governement which is 
>recognized by
>nearly the whole of Quaiyore, it's not a pirate state. The obliteration of 
>Arysia
>would set a very dangerous precedent. Just saying that to warn...
>

Legal maybe, but over Razanian Grounds. The Razanian Kingdoms are heck of 
lot older than Aryisa. The Razanians have the rights to havetheir lands 
back, which the Asagmari took. Anyway, why would i want to obliterate? just 
want to liberate the lands from the Asagmari and kick them off the coast, 
after force laboring them to repair all the damages :P Anyway, Aryisa is the 
one that first started invading the Razanian Kingdoms, nothing wrong to kick 
their butt because of it. Like the Germans started invading neighbouring 
countries and in response, those countries united, liberated the conquered 
territory and go into their country to kick their butt. Nothing illegal, no 
evil being done :)


> > I only used the Dark elves, The
> > flaoting city and the Eerith (Keaton) to take Razianan Coast and 
>Celpalar.  And
> > I only bothered with the Razianan coast becouse its a staging ground to 
>take
> > Celpalar, but once I had Celpalar Razianan was not worth anthing more.
>

Why did Mir Require the floating city, the Eerith, Dark Elves, Dragons and 
the help of the Draconians? Ain't that overkill or simple hard to conquer :) 
Also, Mir committed many attrocities on the RAzanian Coast and you say Mir 
never was evil?


>That's were I don't get it: we sent armies to fight the sinaris. But this 
>won't help
>against a god. You, Jason, with your magic, your Dreaming and all your 
>artifact seem
>much better equipped to fight a mystical fight than our spearmen, however 
>brave and
>skilled they may be.
>

Mir ain't so dominant as they think they are.


> > You don't know me.  Besides Mir was never evil. so I return the blah.
>
>Exactly. How do you know how much evil is warming up there ? Admitedly the 
>Ancients
>Avareans who fought the Mirs with demons were quite evil... but dragons are 
>so
>nice...
>

And has use those dragons to burn down farmlands in the RAzanian Coast, 
starving thousands of people. attrocity and evil.

>Tell us more, for as newbies we don't know about this crown, and artifact 
>coming up
>the sleeve tend to have a bad effect on the game.
>
>
>On a larger scale, you seem very deeply implicated in Mir adventures which 
>is spooky
>for us mere players. It's difficult to be a judge and a player at the same 
>time.
>Still, you have no choice but to follow on with both jobs.
>

Also, making hard to trust a person who controls such powerful society and 
being a GM. Bit unfair? unbalanced?

-LordLMP

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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Louis Pasztor" 
>
> Legal maybe, but over Razanian Grounds. The Razanian Kingdoms are heck of
> lot older than Aryisa. The Razanians have the rights to havetheir lands
> back, which the Asagmari took.

I just wanted to point out, as an American and as the player of Milakanur,
that there is enormous historical precedent for "It's mine, I stole it fair
and square!"

Louis, I think your feelings on the subject of who "deserves" to control
Razania are shared by every right-thinking Razanian, but as a player you
might want to realize that the concept of "right" is extraordinarily fluid
in international relations.

--Sam


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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

>
>I just wanted to point out, as an American and as the player of Milakanur,
>that there is enormous historical precedent for "It's mine, I stole it fair
>and square!"
>

fair and square? doubt it. The colonial people suck and the early americans 
and canadians and so on suck too for taking the lands of the native, even 
break treaties.

>Louis, I think your feelings on the subject of who "deserves" to control
>Razania are shared by every right-thinking Razanian, but as a player you
>might want to realize that the concept of "right" is extraordinarily fluid
>in international relations.
>

Screw what they say, unlike the native people in the past, the razanians 
haves a chance to retake the lands that was taken from them. Who cares what 
the other societies think, its their lands. If the other societies wants to 
do something about it, go ahead. in force, the razanians will defend.

-LordLMP
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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

Melanie _ wrote:

> >
> >I just wanted to point out, as an American and as the player of Milakanur,
> >that there is enormous historical precedent for "It's mine, I stole it fair
> >and square!"
> >
>
> fair and square? doubt it. The colonial people suck and the early americans
> and canadians and so on suck too for taking the lands of the native, even
> break treaties.

Actolly it is.  That is the way the world grows.  Unfortiantly.  Someone has to
loses.  And the past people don't suck cause they did what they though was
right.  I don't accus a baby of not knowing that stealing is wrong and in many
ways the people in the past were babys in many ways.  (And I am not just talking
about Americas and Canadians.)  Also if you really wanted to get in a good
debate with me I also beleive that several other things but on that subject. :)

> >Louis, I think your feelings on the subject of who "deserves" to control
> >Razania are shared by every right-thinking Razanian, but as a player you
> >might want to realize that the concept of "right" is extraordinarily fluid
> >in international relations.
> >
>
> Screw what they say, unlike the native people in the past, the razanians
> haves a chance to retake the lands that was taken from them. Who cares what
> the other societies think, its their lands. If the other societies wants to
> do something about it, go ahead. in force, the razanians will defend.

Okay remember its just a game. Always keep that in mind people.  Weather or not
Razainan wins or loses one dends on the dies and two the game goes one, and
their is always the futer.  So please don't get emmotional involved.

Jason

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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

This whole arguement is a waste of time because what happens to a society all 
depends on a player and the dice. 

High Lord 
Akunosh
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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

>Actolly it is.  That is the way the world grows.  Unfortiantly.  Someone 
>has to
>loses.  And the past people don't suck cause they did what they though was
>right.  I don't accus a baby of not knowing that stealing is wrong and in 
>many
>ways the people in the past were babys in many ways.  (And I am not just 
>talking
>about Americas and Canadians.)  Also if you really wanted to get in a good
>debate with me I also beleive that several other things but on that 
>subject. :)
>

Bring it on ;)  Like to debate/argue :)



>
>Okay remember its just a game. Always keep that in mind people.  Weather or 
>not
>Razainan wins or loses one dends on the dies and two the game goes one, and
>their is always the futer.  So please don't get emmotional involved.
>

Yes i know, but damn slow going :/ and no speach on why its slow. Me 
emotional? na. Just want to kick the Aryisans off the coast so i have the 
room to develope my society more :P

-LordLMP
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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

Louis Pasztor wrote:

> >Actolly it is.  That is the way the world grows.  Unfortiantly.  Someone
> >has to
> >loses.  And the past people don't suck cause they did what they though was
> >right.  I don't accus a baby of not knowing that stealing is wrong and in
> >many
> >ways the people in the past were babys in many ways.  (And I am not just
> >talking
> >about Americas and Canadians.)  Also if you really wanted to get in a good
> >debate with me I also beleive that several other things but on that
> >subject. :)
> >
>
> Bring it on ;)  Like to debate/argue :)

I am talking about a private debate and its about Americans taking over Native
Americans Lands.  so if you wish to talk then okay.

> >Okay remember its just a game. Always keep that in mind people.  Weather or
> >not
> >Razainan wins or loses one dends on the dies and two the game goes one, and
> >their is always the futer.  So please don't get emmotional involved.
> >
>
> Yes i know, but damn slow going :/ and no speach on why its slow. Me
> emotional? na. Just want to kick the Aryisans off the coast so i have the
> room to develope my society more :P

Louis trust me you do not need a lot of room to devolpe a Society.  Trust me I
played a Society on Elyria that was really small.  And Louis I am not going to
defend my self on the game speed I really don't need to.

Jason

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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

>This whole arguement is a waste of time because what happens to a society 
>all
>depends on a player and the dice.
>
>High Lord
>Akunosh

Depends mostly on fate. Hey, i rather the razanians and Aryisa are left 
alone until their war is resolved and 20 turns after that, time to develop 
the society. but what if they GM or another player wants to intefere? The 
razanians is pretty much to busy to deal with other societies outside of the 
coast....except the bordering neighbours.
By the time the razanian war ends, would be next summer way the turns passes 
by :P

-LordLMP
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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

>
>Louis trust me you do not need a lot of room to devolpe a Society.  Trust 
>me I
>played a Society on Elyria that was really small.  And Louis I am not going 
>to
>defend my self on the game speed I really don't need to.
>

I know that, but Aryisa has control of the best farm lands and two of the 
biggest cities on the coast which has ports. Also, busy with the war, hard 
to develop society with the war going on...if i haven't bothere, Aryisa 
would take the offensive...which they have at the beginning. Anyway, having 
the war helps unite the kingdoms :P
what i have planned for the razanians requires on liberating the captured 
lands and passify the Aryisan threat.

-LordLMP



>Jason
>
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[Cel] Is there something rotten in the kingdom of Mir ?

>Louis, I think your feelings on the subject of who "deserves" to control
>Razania are shared by every right-thinking Razanian, but as a player you
>might want to realize that the concept of "right" is extraordinarily fluid
>in international relations.
>


Anyway, if the Razanians didn't unite and take the offensive, Aryisa would. 
They already started invading the rest of the kingdoms when the war started. 
Would the other societies do anything about Aryisa taking the rest of the 
coast over? doubt it.
-LordLMP
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[Cel] [general admin)

Yikes, chill guys.  I mentioned dominant societies in terms of historical
events and plot archs.  I don't even care who can conquer who.  Anyhow, as
designated wrangler of plot and history, a few notes (not my societies so I
don't promise 100% accuracy but provide the information to help those who
don't want to pour over the pages of history on the website):

.If that is so, why your power is still confined to a single island (however
nice the
weather is there...) ?

The collapse of the Mirrish empire and it's causes two fold.  The inevitable
spread and overextension of an empire lead to the typical
"non-centralization" of the society which, given a catalyst, historically
lead to fragmentation and collapse (such as historical Babalon,
Media-Persia, Rome, Carpathia, the British, the more modern Soviet Union,
etc.)  That catalyst was the defeat and horrific losses resulting from the
fall of the floating city and the death of the archmage Lorgrenes.  After
this (and leading into actual game play), Mir endured a prolounged period of
internal recovery and resturcture.  In effect, Mir withdrew rather than
fell.  They suffered great losses but also concentrated a significant amount
of power in a single location.

.That's were I don't get it: we sent armies to fight the sinaris. But this
won't help against a god. You, Jason (refering to the society of Mir), with
your magic, your Dreaming and all your artifact(s) seem much better equipped
to fight a mystical fight than our spearmen, however brave and skilled they
may be.

Actually, the Mir don't control the dreaming but I know what you mean in
context.  The key to the Sanari war is knowledge.  It has not, actually,
been established for a certianly in game that Sin-alb, if it exists,
actually is in the floating city.  Mir has asked for aid because 1) if there
is an arcane threat (irrespective of whether it is a god or not), they can't
find on both arcane and physical fronts and 2) they percieve that there is a
danger here, not just to Mir, but to all of Qaiyore and, therefore, all help
is welcome and necessary.  There is no reason not to solicit help against so
great a potential threat.

In addition, the Mir are not convinced (and rightly so) that all of their
"allies" are committed to the best interest of Mir.  The Eerith in specific
are Mir's best aid against the power of a god but have made no secret of the
fact that they are helping Mir for there own reasons (with a little
extortion of their old enemy thrown in for spice) and there are known to be
Eerith on both sides of the conflict (odd considering that the society
itself doesn't seem to be in conflict, the Eerith seem perfectly content to
support both sides of the war).

>  Another thing, Mir ain't as evil as before, so blah :P
> You don't know me.  Besides Mir was never evil. so I return the blah.
.Exactly. How do you know how much evil is warming up there ? Admitedly the
Ancients
Avareans who fought the Mirs with demons were quite evil... but dragons are
so
nice...

Calling historical Mir not evil really depends on your definition of evil, I
guess.  Let's just agree that they don't seem to be as carelessly ruthless
as they were when they enslaved entire races to aid in their conquests.  Mir
does not know the extent of the "evil" they face.  Currently, they have no
reason to beleive that they face anything less than either Sin-alb or a
reincarnate Alatta.  As I have said, this is also a war of knowledge and
working presumptions are not certianties.  Intersesting that you should
mention dragons, however, because large winged creatures have been sighted
flying above the Sinari forces on previous turns and, when the Mir sought
dragons in the dreaming, they were told the dragons had already left.

>Yea your write their but you  also forgot the Crown of Mir.  It makes Mir
almost
> impentribale.  Even if they get past the crown they would not stadn a
chance
> agains the waiting Sorcerers.

Ok, indulge me for a moment. Everyone else has been strutting around full of
testosterone so now it's my turn:  If Mir is almost impentiribale, why do
the Eerith waltz in and out as if it were their private summer house?
(Sorry, I felt left out and wanted to taunt someone.  Forgive my hubris.)
Actually, I know why and the Crown is a purely defensive weapon which takes
an incredible toll on the user, not to mention that this all presumes a
forwarned and prepared enemy.  Personally, I think Mir's greatest enemies
are within but that's just an opinion.

.Tell us more, for as newbies we don't know about this crown, and artifact
coming up
the sleeve tend to have a bad effect on the game.

Hmmm. I can't remember what of this information is public and what isn't
but, I know what the Eerith will freely share with those who ask and that's
usually a good barometer of public knowledge.  The crown is Mir-specific and
mentioned above.  The two artifacts are the Golden Mirror and the Scepter.
Both of these date to the Mirish defeat and Lorgrines' death and are not,
expressly Mirrish artifacts.  Both are linked to the Eerith and the floating
city and are pivitol elements in the arcane conflict with the supposed
Sin-alb.  The Scepter is, as yet, unrecovered.  The Mirror was obtained by
the Mirrish traitor beneath the ruins of Myr-Kun and may have been the
entire reason for the invasion of the city by the Sinari.  Following this,
the Mirror was stolen by a combined effort of the Mir and the Eerith and, as
a safe-gaurd, duplicated.  Currently, both the Mir and the Eerith posess a
copy of the Mirror and neither knows which is the actual artifact and which
is the copy.  This all took place between 1414 and now.

.On a larger scale, you seem very deeply implicated in Mir adventures which
is spooky for us mere players. It's difficult to be a judge and a player at
the same time.  Still, you have no choice but to follow on with both jobs.

Darned right.  That's why, technically, we have two GMs (more specifically,
we have one GM and one plot wrangler).  This is also why I, inadvertantly,
touched off this discussion (I was trying to explain that, with "dominant"
societies becoming, effectively NPS, i.e. GM controlled, that several
related plot archs would be drawing to a climax and the players were
encouraged to press their own agendas and let me know where we wanted to
go).

That being said, I have no problem saying that I am deeply invested in the
Eerith activities, but for different reasons.  The Eerith were never
intended to be a PS as much as they were ment to be a plot catalyst (in
fact, if events remain on course, which they never do, in another 20 to 30
turns, there may not be an Eerith at all or not recognizable in it's current
form anyhow).  Quite frankly, Kenny designed a race with too much depth to
leave unattended and too much power to be played, so, I took them.

If we are missing information, post and I'll answer with what is commonly
know.  I would caution everyone that things which have been presumed and
stated as fact are not the same as things which have happened and which are
facts.  Very little is clearly known about the threat to Qai's northern
coast and headed inland.  The Sanari are the part which is easy to see but
the specific details of the nature of the city and it's entity are VERY
sketchy at best.

Well, now that I've made everyone involved upset at me, I'll step back into
the shadows again and go back to work on Sand.

M. Keaton


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>
>Yikes, chill guys.  I mentioned domi