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Celandra is a game in which the players take the roles of societies, rather than playing individual characters. The players will invent a society with its culture and heritage, and will guide its development and interaction with the world. Emphasis will be be placed on developing a detailed history of Celandra, along with myths and legends.
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MkeAton
Archangel

Fri

Jan 12
2001

07:16Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

(Since I've already had to resolve part of the Arysian results for this year, in order to maintain continuity, I'll resolve the rest.  This covers all of the Razanian actions and the unresolved Arysian actions.  Now, watch me screw up all those wonderful rules of engagement Jusso designed for this.)

In the interest of clarity, I've placed a synopsis of the results at the top.  Specific details follow below.

Short Version:  The two main forces of Arysia and the Razanians charge forward in an attempt to counter-attack each other and crash together in a bloody savage battle that leaves both forces decimated with no clear winner.  Meanwhile, the Razanians narrowly gain the upper hand in Haran but may be unable to hold it for any length of time.  Advisors suggest that the time has come for meaningful negotiations before both nations are too decimated to withstand third-party aggression.



What has gone before:

In 1421, the Razanian northern and western armies increased their positions with a +1 success.  On the Haran front, the war continued.  Thus far, the net sum of results, by the end of 1421 totaled to +3.


The 1422 actions of Arysia to maintain their own defensive position yielded a result of +4.  However, much of this action was expended holding the native populous in line.  This result is best reflected by increasing the +2 size modifier for defending armies to a +3 for 1422 and allowing the defending forces to be considered better than conscript troop for force considerations, increasing Force for the year by +1.


Proceeding from there:

Due to the close proximity of all forces to their support, all involved units are considered to be adequately supplied.  Base scope of involvement for both sides is assumed to be approximately equal.  Note:  for opposed actions, difficulties are not assigned to the actions, the opposition force is the difficulty.


Engagement One (The Aryisan press encounters the Razanian counter-attack)
Arysian Action 1-3:  Fighting the War

Duke Iyan orders the Aryisan army to engage in a massive offensive on all
fronts.  The goal is to push all Razanian forces off of Aryisan
territory, and, if possible, invade the Razanian kingdoms.  Highly mobile
Raken cavalry are to be used to a great extent, allowing rapid response
forces to be deployed to any front in under a week.

Primary Determent: Military Force (Great +2, feudal structure) (Size Fair 0) 
Difficulty: Routine (0)
Secrecy: None

Mods: + Defending homeland
+ Asagmari good at this type of campaign
- Due to wide front of engagement.  The rapid response of the Raken cavalry prevents this modifier from growing larger than -1
NA--Philosophical  Orientation: Survival, active (No modifier-prime orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions.  This action, launched as an offensive, does not receive said bonus)
+ Recent successes
++ triple action


Opposing Razanian action:
Action I. - Strategy, External
Actor: Northern/Western Kingdoms
Objective: Invade Aryisa from the North
Type: Invasion
Secrecy: None
Difficulty: Very Hard, Aryisa tight Defenses
Prime Determinant: Military force (assuming primary army data--Force Good +1, Size Fair +0, feudal structure)
Secondary Determinant: Survival
Modifiers:
NA-Primary Philosophical Orientation: Survival (No modifier-prime orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions.  This action, launched as an offensive, does not receive said bonus)
NA-Secondary Philosophical Orientation: War  (Modifier for secondary orientation is to be counted as half of the primary equivalent.  In this case, this would be expressed as +1 force and +1 size.  Due to the situation, the half effect is better expressed as +1 force)
(+1) hatred for the Asagmari
(+1) united force
(-1) kingdoms have problems working together
NA great on razanian soil (conflict is not defensive on Razanian soil)
(+1) Razanian Front
(+1) Use of Gurders and Minot Catapults
NA Aryisa tight Defenses (taken into account)
NA Aryisa counter-offensive (taken into account)
(+1) Double Action

1) Battle Force:  Size-Arysian 0, Razanian 0, no adjustments to force values due to size
    Force:  Arysian +2, Razanian +2, off-setting
    Net: Arysia 0, Razanian 0

2) Modifiers:  Arysian +4, Razanian +4, off-setting

3) Conflict (Dang, I'm almost afraid to roll, this is too close):  Arysian (+1-1+0+1)=+1, Razanian (0+1+0+0)=+1.

4) Causalities:  Causality ratio Arysia 1: Razanian 1.  Total army size 0 (Fair).  This value places the casualties for both sides at nearly 15,000 men per side.  Normally, I rule that it is possible to recover 2/3 of casualties as deserters and "walking wounded".  Due to the desperate savagery of this engagement, the recovery rate is lowered to 1/2, resulting and approximately 7,000 dead per size.

I realize that many modifiers and my subjective rulings and applications of some of the military engagement rules can be debated ad museum but I feel that the results, as they stand, very accurately reflect the results of such a significant encounter.  The best and brightest of both sides took to the field and fought each other to a stand-still.  Both armies, from this point, should be considered both severely fatigued and out of supply.  Both players should strongly consider the affect of this tumult on their civilian populations.  Given the length and cost of this war, it is very likely that a growing anti-war sentiment is growing among both societies.


Engagement Two (Haran):

Razanian Assault:
Action IV. - Strategic/Tactical, internal/external (Razanian Front)
Actors: Razanian Front
Objective: Liberating Kingdom of Haran
Type: Espionage/Rebelling/hiding/whatever
Secrecy: Yes
Difficulty: Very Hard
Prime Determinant: Military force (assuming primary army data--Force Good +1, Size Fair +0, feudal structure)
Secondary Determinant: Survival
Modifiers:
NA-Primary Philosophical Orientation: Survival (No modifier-prime orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions.  This offense is not a defensive action.)
NA-Secondary Philosophical Orientation: War  (Modifier for secondary orientation is to be counted as half of the primary equivalent.  In this case, this would be expressed as +1 force and +1 size.  Due to the situation, the half effect is better expressed as +1 force)
(+1)Razanian Front already spread out in Haran
(+1)concentration in one area than all over Aryisa
(+1)Southern Armies really involve
(+1)equipped some celpalar weaponry
(-1)Risk of having the Aryisan stopping the Front for good
+Century Council support
+Double Action

In 1421, the Razanian northern and western armies increased their positions with a +1 success.  On the Haran front, the war continued.  Thus far, the net sum of results, by the end of 1421 totaled to +3.


Defensive Forces:
Primary Determent: Military Force (Great +2, feudal structure) (Size Fair 0, +2 for defensive stance) 
Difficulty: Routine (0)
Secrecy: None

Mods: + Defending homeland
+ Asagmari good at this type of campaign
NA--Philosophical  Orientation: Survival, active (No modifier-prime orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions)

The 1422 actions of Arysia to maintain their own defensive position yielded a result of +4.  This result was issued "baring unforeseen intrusions".  This attack does indeed comprise an unforeseen intrusion (which is why I left that clause in there, I knew other players were involved).  These values from which generated the original result were +2 for military force (still used), two +1 modifiers (still used) and the following four die rolls (-1+1+1-1).  These values remain unchanged.  However, since this is now a military conflict (i.e. an opposed action) the set difficulty level previously employed is no longer valid and the results in question may change (depending on the remainder of this resolution).  My apologies for the confusion.

1) Battle Force:  Size-Arysian +2, Razanian 0.  -2 adjustment to Razanian force
    Force:  Arysian +2, Razanian +1 (modified by the size adjustment of -2).  Net: +3 effective force for       Arysia

2) Modifiers:  Arysian +2, Razanian +5+3 for the previous ongoing strategic subversion activities.  Net: +6 Razanian

3) Conflict: Arysia (-1+1+1-1, previously determined), Razanian (+0+0+0-1)  (What the heck?  The dice gods hate Razanians?)  Net: Arysia +3, Razanian +5, conclusion--Razanian +2.

4) Casualties:  Razanian1: Arysia 3.  Unlike the previous battle, the savagery level was not extreme, allowing 2/3 recovery as well as the -3 category reduction in army size rating for determining casualties.  This places the Razanian casualties around 1,500 and Arysian losses at 4,500.  

The most likely conclusion I can reach from these results is that, after almost a decade of subversion and warfare, the Razanians finally have theoretical control of Haran.  Theoretical because they effectively have no force of consequence to defend it against counter-attack.  Political advisors on both sides are inclined to recommend using Haran as a bargaining chip in a suite for peace (surrendering Haran, an poor defensive position, for bordering territory under contention or visa-versa).  Advisors also indicate to both sides involved that the continued conflict has left both nations unprepared to defend themselves from outside invasion (heaven forbid that Videssia emerges from its inner turmoil with an efficient government...)

Final note:  as far as Mir promising to intervene on the part of Arysia, it may not be exactly fair but they need something that Arysia has (ugly politics) and it should be noted that it will be several years before Mir can extract itself from its present problems with the Sinari.  Also, I agree that a focus on the Razanian coast is long overdue.  It is one of the best developed areas of the continent and is rich in history and context.  I also can't help but notice that with Videssia to the south, Celepar and the Ban Horroth to the north and east, and the Mountians of the Moon Warrior to the west, Arysia and the Razanian Kingdoms may find they need each other more than they think (random idea there, do what you want with it).



M. Keaton


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GuillaumeIso8859
Guillaume =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E9nager?=

Fri

Jan 12
2001

12:03Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

Greetings,

I'm sorry but I have to step in the Arysia/Razanian results. Razanians stated they had some Celpalar weaponry. This is excluded. Absolutely.
We agreed to some trade, excluding any military or magic stuff.
I'm so obliged to react and ask for a modification. It's not that I've been unwatchful but it all hapened while I was sleeping this night. I know that it is contrary to the game ethics to change an already rolled for result.
Hope you can find an honorable way out of it, but I won't sell weapon to the Razanians.

Have a nice day.

For the State of Celapalar
Guillaume.

Archangel a écrit :

> (Since I've already had to resolve part of the Arysian results for this year, in order to maintain continuity, I'll resolve the rest.  This covers all of the Razanian actions and the unresolved Arysian actions.  Now, watch me screw up all those wonderful rules of engagement Jusso designed for this.)
>
> In the interest of clarity, I've placed a synopsis of the results at the top.  Specific details follow below.
>
> Short Version:  The two main forces of Arysia and the Razanians charge forward in an attempt to counter-attack each other and crash together in a bloody savage battle that leaves both forces decimated with no clear winner.  Meanwhile, the Razanians narrowly gain the upper hand in Haran but may be unable to hold it for any length of time.  Advisors suggest that the time has come for meaningful negotiations before both nations are too decimated to withstand third-party aggression.
>
> What has gone before:
>
> In 1421, the Razanian northern and western armies increased their positions with a +1 success.  On the Haran front, the war continued.  Thus far, the net sum of results, by the end of 1421 totaled to +3.
>
> The 1422 actions of Arysia to maintain their own defensive position yielded a result of +4.  However, much of this action was expended holding the native populous in line.  This result is best reflected by increasing the +2 size modifier for defending armies to a +3 for 1422 and allowing the defending forces to be considered better than conscript troop for force considerations, increasing Force for the year by +1.
>
> Proceeding from there:
>
> Due to the close proximity of all forces to their support, all involved units are considered to be adequately supplied.  Base scope of involvement for both sides is assumed to be approximately equal.  Note:  for opposed actions, difficulties are not assigned to the actions, the opposition force is the difficulty.
>
> Engagement One (The Aryisan press encounters the Razanian counter-attack)
> Arysian Action 1-3:  Fighting the War
>
> Duke Iyan orders the Aryisan army to engage in a massive offensive on all
> fronts.  The goal is to push all Razanian forces off of Aryisan
> territory, and, if possible, invade the Razanian kingdoms.  Highly mobile
> Raken cavalry are to be used to a great extent, allowing rapid response
> forces to be deployed to any front in under a week.
>
> Primary Determent: Military Force (Great +2, feudal structure) (Size Fair 0)
> Difficulty: Routine (0)
> Secrecy: None
>
> Mods: + Defending homeland
> + Asagmari good at this type of campaign
> - Due to wide front of engagement.  The rapid response of the Raken cavalry prevents this modifier from growing larger than -1
> NA--Philosophical  Orientation: Survival, active (No modifier-prime orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions.  This action, launched as an offensive, does not receive said bonus)
> + Recent successes
> ++ triple action
>
> Opposing Razanian action:
> Action I. - Strategy, External
> Actor: Northern/Western Kingdoms
> Objective: Invade Aryisa from the North
> Type: Invasion
> Secrecy: None
> Difficulty: Very Hard, Aryisa tight Defenses
> Prime Determinant: Military force (assuming primary army data--Force Good +1, Size Fair +0, feudal structure)
> Secondary Determinant: Survival
> Modifiers:
> NA-Primary Philosophical Orientation: Survival (No modifier-prime orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions.  This action, launched as an offensive, does not receive said bonus)
> NA-Secondary Philosophical Orientation: War  (Modifier for secondary orientation is to be counted as half of the primary equivalent.  In this case, this would be expressed as +1 force and +1 size.  Due to the situation, the half effect is better expressed as +1 force)
> (+1) hatred for the Asagmari
> (+1) united force
> (-1) kingdoms have problems working together
> NA great on razanian soil (conflict is not defensive on Razanian soil)
> (+1) Razanian Front
> (+1) Use of Gurders and Minot Catapults
> NA Aryisa tight Defenses (taken into account)
> NA Aryisa counter-offensive (taken into account)
> (+1) Double Action
>
> 1) Battle Force:  Size-Arysian 0, Razanian 0, no adjustments to force values due to size
>     Force:  Arysian +2, Razanian +2, off-setting
>     Net: Arysia 0, Razanian 0
>
> 2) Modifiers:  Arysian +4, Razanian +4, off-setting
>
> 3) Conflict (Dang, I'm almost afraid to roll, this is too close):  Arysian (+1-1+0+1)=+1, Razanian (0+1+0+0)=+1.
>
> 4) Causalities:  Causality ratio Arysia 1: Razanian 1.  Total army size 0 (Fair).  This value places the casualties for both sides at nearly 15,000 men per side.  Normally, I rule that it is possible to recover 2/3 of casualties as deserters and "walking wounded".  Due to the desperate savagery of this engagement, the recovery rate is lowered to 1/2, resulting and approximately 7,000 dead per size.
>
> I realize that many modifiers and my subjective rulings and applications of some of the military engagement rules can be debated ad museum but I feel that the results, as they stand, very accurately reflect the results of such a significant encounter.  The best and brightest of both sides took to the field and fought each other to a stand-still.  Both armies, from this point, should be considered both severely fatigued and out of supply.  Both players should strongly consider the affect of this tumult on their civilian populations.  Given the length and cost of this war, it is very likely that a growing anti-war sentiment is growing among both societies.
>
> Engagement Two (Haran):
>
> Razanian Assault:
> Action IV. - Strategic/Tactical, internal/external (Razanian Front)
> Actors: Razanian Front
> Objective: Liberating Kingdom of Haran
> Type: Espionage/Rebelling/hiding/whatever
> Secrecy: Yes
> Difficulty: Very Hard
> Prime Determinant: Military force (assuming primary army data--Force Good +1, Size Fair +0, feudal structure)
> Secondary Determinant: Survival
> Modifiers:
> NA-Primary Philosophical Orientation: Survival (No modifier-prime orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions.  This offense is not a defensive action.)
> NA-Secondary Philosophical Orientation: War  (Modifier for secondary orientation is to be counted as half of the primary equivalent.  In this case, this would be expressed as +1 force and +1 size.  Due to the situation, the half effect is better expressed as +1 force)
> (+1)Razanian Front already spread out in Haran
> (+1)concentration in one area than all over Aryisa
> (+1)Southern Armies really involve
> (+1)equipped some celpalar weaponry
> (-1)Risk of having the Aryisan stopping the Front for good
> +Century Council support
> +Double Action
>
> In 1421, the Razanian northern and western armies increased their positions with a +1 success.  On the Haran front, the war continued.  Thus far, the net sum of results, by the end of 1421 totaled to +3.
>
> Defensive Forces:
> Primary Determent: Military Force (Great +2, feudal structure) (Size Fair 0, +2 for defensive stance)
> Difficulty: Routine (0)
> Secrecy: None
>
> Mods: + Defending homeland
> + Asagmari good at this type of campaign
> NA--Philosophical  Orientation: Survival, active (No modifier-prime orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions)
>
> The 1422 actions of Arysia to maintain their own defensive position yielded a result of +4.  This result was issued "baring unforeseen intrusions".  This attack does indeed comprise an unforeseen intrusion (which is why I left that clause in there, I knew other players were involved).  These values from which generated the original result were +2 for military force (still used), two +1 modifiers (still used) and the following four die rolls (-1+1+1-1).  These values remain unchanged.  However, since this is now a military conflict (i.e. an opposed action) the set difficulty level previously employed is no longer valid and the results in question may change (depending on the remainder of this resolution).  My apologies for the confusion.
>
> 1) Battle Force:  Size-Arysian +2, Razanian 0.  -2 adjustment to Razanian force
>     Force:  Arysian +2, Razanian +1 (modified by the size adjustment of -2).  Net: +3 effective force for       Arysia
>
> 2) Modifiers:  Arysian +2, Razanian +5+3 for the previous ongoing strategic subversion activities.  Net: +6 Razanian
>
> 3) Conflict: Arysia (-1+1+1-1, previously determined), Razanian (+0+0+0-1)  (What the heck?  The dice gods hate Razanians?)  Net: Arysia +3, Razanian +5, conclusion--Razanian +2.
>
> 4) Casualties:  Razanian1: Arysia 3.  Unlike the previous battle, the savagery level was not extreme, allowing 2/3 recovery as well as the -3 category reduction in army size rating for determining casualties.  This places the Razanian casualties around 1,500 and Arysian losses at 4,500.
>
> The most likely conclusion I can reach from these results is that, after almost a decade of subversion and warfare, the Razanians finally have theoretical control of Haran.  Theoretical because they effectively have no force of consequence to defend it against counter-attack.  Political advisors on both sides are inclined to recommend using Haran as a bargaining chip in a suite for peace (surrendering Haran, an poor defensive position, for bordering territory under contention or visa-versa).  Advisors also indicate to both sides involved that the continued conflict has left both nations unprepared to defend themselves from outside invasion (heaven forbid that Videssia emerges from its inner turmoil with an efficient government...)
>
> Final note:  as far as Mir promising to intervene on the part of Arysia, it may not be exactly fair but they need something that Arysia has (ugly politics) and it should be noted that it will be several years before Mir can extract itself from its present problems with the Sinari.  Also, I agree that a focus on the Razanian coast is long overdue.  It is one of the best developed areas of the continent and is rich in history and context.  I also can't help but notice that with Videssia to the south, Celepar and the Ban Horroth to the north and east, and the Mountians of the Moon Warrior to the west, Arysia and the Razanian Kingdoms may find they need each other more than they think (random idea there, do what you want with it).
>
> M. Keaton
>
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JtSl
jtsl

Fri

Jan 12
2001

14:28Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

> Final note:  as far as Mir promising to intervene on the part of Arysia, it may not be exactly fair but they need something that Arysia has (ugly politics) and it should be noted that it will be several years before Mir can extract itself from its present problems with the Sinari.  Also, I agree that a focus on the Razanian coast is long overdue.  It is one of the best developed areas of the continent and is rich in history and context.  I also can't help but notice that with Videssia to the south, Celepar and the Ban Horroth to the north and east, and the Mountians of the Moon Warrior to the west, Arysia and the Razanian Kingdoms may find they need each other more than they think (random idea there, do what you want with it).

Okay Keaton next time talk with me first.  Mir is not actolly as it may apear complete ocupided with the Sinari war.  In this cause Mir has done what it can for that war an is siting back.  Mir would contribute some mages to the battle so Aryisa would have a magic bonus, and i was planing n using my fifth action to try to due somethng magical to the Razanian army, and if works it could have thrown the balance.  So I think these battle action may be redone.

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AaronENowack
Aaron E Nowack

Fri

Jan 12
2001

20:35Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

Amidst the third-party objections to the results, as Aryisan player I
will say that I am willing to accept these results.

Which leads to following letter from the Grand Council of Aryisa to the
Century Council of the Razanian Kingdoms in early 1423:

	Recently, our two peoples have been engaged in a bloody war that seems
to lead only to mutual extinction.  The most recent battles have only
worsened both our casulties to no effect.  The time has come for us to
come together as nations and work out a lasting peace.  The Grand Council
has convened and resolved to offer the following terms of peace:

	* That the Asagmari Nation of Aryisa will extend diplomatic recognition
to the nations of  Sout, Saragor, Non, Sayn,  Minot, Karan, Narton,
Taran, Taranta, Tesh, Canor, Farnor, and Bernar.

	* That the aforementioned Razanian nations shall likewise extend
diplomatic recognition to the Asagmari Nation of Aryisa.

	*That the borders of Aryisa shall include the former nations of Razan,
Nostan, and Haran, excluding those territories both north of the Karan
River and west of the Razan River.

	*That the Razanaian nations shall cut off all support and relations with
the rebel organization called the Razanian Front.

	*That Aryisa will open free trade with the Razanian nations, including
usage of the rivers and ports of Aryisa.

	*That the Razanian nations will likewise open their borders to Aryisan
merchants.

 	*That all signatories shall unite to punish any nation that violates
the terms of this treaty.

	We believe that these terms will allow both our peoples to live in peace
once more.

					Signed,
					Regent Alvar III
					Duke Iyan, Chancellor of Aryisa
					[other Council members]


           Aaron Nowack
"Never let reality get in the way of a good hypothesis."
http://www.geocities.com/anowack/

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LouisPasztor
Louis Pasztor

Sat

Jan 13
2001

00:34Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

>
>Opposing Razanian action:
>Action I. - Strategy, External
>Actor: Northern/Western Kingdoms
>Objective: Invade Aryisa from the North
>Type: Invasion
>Secrecy: None
>Difficulty: Very Hard, Aryisa tight Defenses
>Prime Determinant: Military force (assuming primary army data--Force Good 
>+1, Size Fair +0, feudal structure)
>Secondary Determinant: Survival
>Modifiers:
>NA-Primary Philosophical Orientation: Survival (No modifier-prime 
>orientation of Survival during a military engagement provides +0 force 
>modifier but an effective +2 gain to Size for defensive actions.  This 
>action, launched as an offensive, does not receive said bonus)
>NA-Secondary Philosophical Orientation: War  (Modifier for secondary 
>orientation is to be counted as half of the primary equivalent.  In this 
>case, this would be expressed as +1 force and +1 size.  Due to the 
>situation, the half effect is better expressed as +1 force)
>(+1) hatred for the Asagmari
>(+1) united force
>(-1) kingdoms have problems working together

>NA great on razanian soil (conflict is not defensive on Razanian soil)

If you bother to check the Determinants, the Razanians have a bonus in 
military anywhere on the Razanian Coast, including within the territory 
controlled by Aryisa, which originally belonged to the Razanians a century 
ago. I have pointed this out numerous times. This bonus doesn't apply beyond 
the Razanian Coast. Remember, Razanians fought among themselves for 
centuries and countless raids on Aryisa and now the War. Razanians have 
obsolute knowledge of everywhere on the Razanian Coast and know how to fight 
on their Homeland, which is the whole Coast. So they have a bonus and the 
determinants shows that, one of the few advantages they against Aryisa Train 
Military and more advance weaponry, its how they survive.

>
>3) Conflict: Arysia (-1+1+1-1, previously determined), Razanian (+0+0+0-1)  
>(What the heck?  The dice gods hate Razanians?)  Net: Arysia +3, Razanian 
>+5, conclusion--Razanian +2.

As i was saying, Razanians not very religious it seems.

>
>4) Casualties:  Razanian1: Arysia 3.  Unlike the previous battle, the 
>savagery level was not extreme, allowing 2/3 recovery as well as the -3 
>category reduction in army size rating for determining casualties.  This 
>places the Razanian casualties around 1,500 and Arysian losses at 4,500.
>
>The most likely conclusion I can reach from these results is that, after 
>almost a decade of subversion and warfare, the Razanians finally have 
>theoretical control of Haran.  Theoretical because they effectively have no 
>force of consequence to defend it against counter-attack.  Political 
>advisors on both sides are inclined to recommend using Haran as a 
>bargaining chip in a suite for peace (surrendering Haran, an poor defensive 
>position, for bordering territory under contention or visa-versa).  
>Advisors also indicate to both sides involved that the continued conflict 
>has left both nations unprepared to defend themselves from outside invasion 
>(heaven forbid that Videssia emerges from its inner turmoil with an 
>efficient government...)

Haran will end up being a contested territory, barely controlled by Aryisa 
or the Razanian Kingdoms. But Razanian Front does operate there, but they 
are not strong enough to prevent a counter-attack...even then, Aryisa 
military badly hurt as the Razanian Kingdoms militaries, so could they 
afford trying to take Haran back? if they do, in their weak state and all, 
will leave their northern positions weak.  Anyway, don't expect Haran to 
become a Kingdom/Monarchy again, but will be runned by the Razanian Front, 
like i always planned. Razanian Front of Haran.

>
>Final note:  as far as Mir promising to intervene on the part of Arysia, it 
>may not be exactly fair but they need something that Arysia has (ugly 
>politics) and it should be noted that it will be several years before Mir 
>can extract itself from its present problems with the Sinari.  Also, I 
>agree that a focus on the Razanian coast is long overdue.  It is one of the 
>best developed areas of the continent and is rich in history and context.  
>I also can't help but notice that with Videssia to the south, Celepar and 
>the Ban Horroth to the north and east, and the Mountians of the Moon 
>Warrior to the west, Arysia and the Razanian Kingdoms may find they need 
>each other more than they think (random idea there, do what you want with 
>it).

If Razanian Coast gets invaded by an outside force, then sure it will 
happen. Oh, and don't forget the Aixela whatever society past the mountain 
west from here. Razanians have trsde relations with Ban Horroth and 
Celpalar, and relations are Good, not strong, but Good. Aryisa wouldn't know 
much of the Ban Horroth.
For now, rather resolve this bloody war and start recovering anf improving 
relations. Razanian Kingdoms finally united, yet not as one nation, but 
Century Council thinks better leave it that way... council is like a UN 
Council, but only for the Razanian KIngdoms...maybe Aryisa too in future, 
depending out much relations improves. Razanians still wants to liberate the 
coast of Aryisa, but they do see that they are weak and not best of shape. 
Also, the Crusaders in Aryisa would loose more and more support of populace, 
so a chance for the Guardians.


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LouisPasztor
Louis Pasztor

Sat

Jan 13
2001

00:40Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

> > Final note:  as far as Mir promising to intervene on the part of Arysia, 
>it may not be exactly fair but they need something that Arysia has (ugly 
>politics) and it should be noted that it will be several years before Mir 
>can extract itself from its present problems with the Sinari.  Also, I 
>agree that a focus on the Razanian coast is long overdue.  It is one of the 
>best developed areas of the continent and is rich in history and context.  
>I also can't help but notice that with Videssia to the south, Celepar and 
>the Ban Horroth to the north and east, and the Mountians of the Moon 
>Warrior to the west, Arysia and the Razanian Kingdoms may find they need 
>each other more than they think (random idea there, do what you want with 
>it).
>
>Okay Keaton next time talk with me first.  Mir is not actolly as it may 
>apear complete ocupided with the Sinari war.  In this cause Mir has done 
>what it can for that war an is siting back.  Mir would contribute some 
>mages to the battle so Aryisa would have a magic bonus, and i was planing n 
>using my fifth action to try to due somethng magical to the Razanian army, 
>and if works it could have thrown the balance.  So I think these battle 
>action may be redone.
>

That would be supporting Aryisa and Razanian have no chance if Mir helps 
Aryisa. Thats no fair. Like i said before. the odds between the two are 
pretty much close and even, so don't go give Aryisa a bonus, a magic bonus 
at that with Mir Mages helping. Thats no way. I will not play a society 
running and being conquered, no hope of gaining the advantage they had in 
beginning of war.

Melanie!!! where are you? be nice if Ban Horroth can help against magic if 
Mir gets involve :P

-LordLMP
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LouisPasztor
Louis Pasztor

Sat

Jan 13
2001

01:05Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

>Amidst the third-party objections to the results, as Aryisan player I
>will say that I am willing to accept these results.
>

So do I and rather see Mir as peacekeepers than helping Aryisa military 
wise.

>Which leads to following letter from the Grand Council of Aryisa to the
>Century Council of the Razanian Kingdoms in early 1423:
>
>	Recently, our two peoples have been engaged in a bloody war that seems
>to lead only to mutual extinction.  The most recent battles have only
>worsened both our casulties to no effect.  The time has come for us to
>come together as nations and work out a lasting peace.  The Grand Council
>has convened and resolved to offer the following terms of peace:
>
>	* That the Asagmari Nation of Aryisa will extend diplomatic recognition
>to the nations of  Sout, Saragor, Non, Sayn,  Minot, Karan, Narton,
>Taran, Taranta, Tesh, Canor, Farnor, and Bernar.
>
>	* That the aforementioned Razanian nations shall likewise extend
>diplomatic recognition to the Asagmari Nation of Aryisa.
>
>	*That the borders of Aryisa shall include the former nations of Razan,
>Nostan, and Haran, excluding those territories both north of the Karan
>River and west of the Razan River.
>
>	*That the Razanaian nations shall cut off all support and relations with
>the rebel organization called the Razanian Front.
>
>	*That Aryisa will open free trade with the Razanian nations, including
>usage of the rivers and ports of Aryisa.
>
>	*That the Razanian nations will likewise open their borders to Aryisan
>merchants.
>
>  	*That all signatories shall unite to punish any nation that violates
>the terms of this treaty.
>
>	We believe that these terms will allow both our peoples to live in peace
>once more.
>
>					Signed,
>					Regent Alvar III
>					Duke Iyan, Chancellor of Aryisa
>					[other Council members]
>

reply to Grand Council of Aryisa from the Century Council of the Razanian 
Kingdoms:

The Century Council agrees to all except parts of third and all of fourth 
propositions. The Century Council supports the Razanian Front and now 
recognizes the Razanian Front of Haran. Also, Century Council rather keep 
control of all Aryisa territory which the Razanian Kingdoms as liberated.

Century Council proposes the following propositions:

*ALL Razanian serfs within Aryisa are to be freed and given the option to go 
wherever they wish. If all or some of the Razanian there choose to stay 
there should have complete Aryisa citizenship. They are not to be harm in 
anyway or used as slaves or discriminated against.

*Aryisa should have more respect of Razanian Coast. (like stop destroying 
the forest so much, killing off some animals, no to over fish, lay waste all 
over the place and so on :) )


                                              The Century Council


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AaronENowack
Aaron E Nowack

Sat

Jan 13
2001

01:36Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:05:39 cst "Louis Pasztor" 
writes:
> >Amidst the third-party objections to the results, as Aryisan player 
> I
> >will say that I am willing to accept these results.
> >
> 
> So do I and rather see Mir as peacekeepers than helping Aryisa 
> military 
> wise.
> 
> >Which leads to following letter from the Grand Council of Aryisa to 
> the
> >Century Council of the Razanian Kingdoms in early 1423:
[all but the relevant points snipped] 
> >	*That the borders of Aryisa shall include the former 
> nations of Razan,
> >Nostan, and Haran, excluding those territories both north of the 
> Karan
> >River and west of the Razan River.
> >
> >	*That the Razanaian nations shall cut off all support and 
> relations with
> >the rebel organization called the Razanian Front.
> reply to Grand Council of Aryisa from the Century Council of the 
> Razanian 
> Kingdoms:
> 
> The Century Council agrees to all except parts of third and all of 
> fourth 
> propositions. The Century Council supports the Razanian Front and 
> now 
> recognizes the Razanian Front of Haran. Also, Century Council rather 
> keep 
> control of all Aryisa territory which the Razanian Kingdoms as 
> liberated.
> 
> Century Council proposes the following propositions:
> 
> *ALL Razanian serfs within Aryisa are to be freed and given the 
> option to go 
> wherever they wish. If all or some of the Razanian there choose to 
> stay 
> there should have complete Aryisa citizenship. They are not to be 
> harm in 
> anyway or used as slaves or discriminated against.
> 
> *Aryisa should have more respect of Razanian Coast. (like stop 
> destroying 
> the forest so much, killing off some animals, no to over fish, lay 
> waste all 
> over the place and so on :) )
> 
> 
>                                               The Century Council


To the Century Council from the Grand Council of Aryisa:

	We continue to believe that neither of our nations is in a position to
fight much longer, however do not take this to mean that we are unwilling
to fight for our nation if necessary.  Aryisa has been the homeland of
our people for a hundred years.  We have lost one nation, and will never
surrender another.
	As regards to your comments on our third and fourth proposals:  we find
such a solution unacceptable.  The port of Haran is the second largest
city of Aryisa and a major strategic resource.  At the beginning of this
war, at least half its population was Asagmari, and many of these people
are now refugees due to the insurrection of the so-called Razanian Front.
 To give up Haran would be an unjustifiable injustice to our people, and
will not be done.
	The fourth point is absolutely unnegotiable.  We cannot make peace with
nations that support an organization devoted to the destabilization and
destruction of our homeland. 
	As regards to your own two points.   Your first point is not acceptable.
 For one matter, there is no such thing as a "citizen" of Aryisa.  One is
either a noble, a townsman, or a serf.  That has been the way of our
people since the founding of Asagmar.  To allow the serfs to go free
would cause massive starvation in Aryisa, as fields that already lie
fallow from this long war will be unable to be planted.  And could your
own nations feed the massive influx of people that would result from such
a move?
	As to your second point, Aryisa is the homeland of our people.  We care
for it as deeply as you care for your  own nations.  We have never sought
to do harm to our land, but if you wish a written guarantee can be
included. 
	Hoping that your Council will see the reason in our words,

					Signed,
					Regent Alvar III
					Duke Iyan, Chancellor of Aryisa
					[other Council members]
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LouisPasztor
Louis Pasztor

Sat

Jan 13
2001

16:34Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

> > >Which leads to following letter from the Grand Council of Aryisa to
> > the
> > >Century Council of the Razanian Kingdoms in early 1423:
>[all but the relevant points snipped]
> > >	*That the borders of Aryisa shall include the former
> > nations of Razan,
> > >Nostan, and Haran, excluding those territories both north of the
> > Karan
> > >River and west of the Razan River.
> > >
> > >	*That the Razanaian nations shall cut off all support and
> > relations with
> > >the rebel organization called the Razanian Front.
> > reply to Grand Council of Aryisa from the Century Council of the
> > Razanian
> > Kingdoms:
> >
> > The Century Council agrees to all except parts of third and all of
> > fourth
> > propositions. The Century Council supports the Razanian Front and
> > now
> > recognizes the Razanian Front of Haran. Also, Century Council rather
> > keep
> > control of all Aryisa territory which the Razanian Kingdoms as
> > liberated.
> >
> > Century Council proposes the following propositions:
> >
> > *ALL Razanian serfs within Aryisa are to be freed and given the
> > option to go
> > wherever they wish. If all or some of the Razanian there choose to
> > stay
> > there should have complete Aryisa citizenship. They are not to be
> > harm in
> > anyway or used as slaves or discriminated against.
> >
> > *Aryisa should have more respect of Razanian Coast. (like stop
> > destroying
> > the forest so much, killing off some animals, no to over fish, lay
> > waste all
> > over the place and so on :) )
> >
> >
> >                                               The Century Council
>
>
>To the Century Council from the Grand Council of Aryisa:
>
>	We continue to believe that neither of our nations is in a position to
>fight much longer, however do not take this to mean that we are unwilling
>to fight for our nation if necessary.  Aryisa has been the homeland of
>our people for a hundred years.  We have lost one nation, and will never
>surrender another.
>	As regards to your comments on our third and fourth proposals:  we find
>such a solution unacceptable.  The port of Haran is the second largest
>city of Aryisa and a major strategic resource.  At the beginning of this
>war, at least half its population was Asagmari, and many of these people
>are now refugees due to the insurrection of the so-called Razanian Front.
>  To give up Haran would be an unjustifiable injustice to our people, and
>will not be done.
>	The fourth point is absolutely unnegotiable.  We cannot make peace with
>nations that support an organization devoted to the destabilization and
>destruction of our homeland.
>	As regards to your own two points.   Your first point is not acceptable.
>  For one matter, there is no such thing as a "citizen" of Aryisa.  One is
>either a noble, a townsman, or a serf.  That has been the way of our
>people since the founding of Asagmar.  To allow the serfs to go free
>would cause massive starvation in Aryisa, as fields that already lie
>fallow from this long war will be unable to be planted.  And could your
>own nations feed the massive influx of people that would result from such
>a move?
>	As to your second point, Aryisa is the homeland of our people.  We care
>for it as deeply as you care for your  own nations.  We have never sought
>to do harm to our land, but if you wish a written guarantee can be
>included.
>	Hoping that your Council will see the reason in our words,
>
>					Signed,
>					Regent Alvar III
>					Duke Iyan, Chancellor of Aryisa
>					[other Council members]


Century Council of Razanian Kingdoms to the Grand Council of Aryisa:

        We do see reason to your words, but you also have to see reason to 
ours. The Razanian Kingdoms fought hard to liberate the lands from your 
Nation, many lives lost doing so. The Kingdoms will not be happy to simply 
give those lands back.
        We also have all intentions of protecting our people, aswell as the 
ones within Aryisa. We don't expect them to come all rushing among the 
KIngdoms, but I am sure they would rather leave Aryisa than continue slaving 
for your Nation, which is why the Razanian Front was created. So by letting 
the Razanian serfs free and to not treat as your nation have in last 
century, they'll confident enough to stay we are sure, especially with a 
treaty protecting them.
        By leaving our people free and unmolested, the Razanian Front will 
stop rebelling. By giving them control of Haran, they'll agree leave your 
people unmolested and to be considered citizens of the Razanian Front of 
Haran. To have a Joint nation of both our people would sure improve 
relations. We do have representives of the Razanian Front at our council to 
confirm this proposition.
        If your people are so worried about your people as we do with ours 
at Haran, we can also place Aryisa military and Razanian Kingdoms militaries 
as "peacekeepers" there, or ask a third party to do so.
        If Aryisa agree to give up Haran to the Razanian Front, the Razanian 
Kingdoms will agree to giving back the territory they liberated from your 
nation up to where the borders of Tesh and Canor originally was, all lands 
east of Razan River from Karan and lands taken at Nostan. Also, Razanian 
Front will cease all actions against Aryisa.
        We suggest we should negociate somewhere in more of personal manner, 
we have many issues to negociate so we may all live in peace. Do remember, 
your nation was created by stealing the nations of others.


                                                   Century Council

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AaronENowack
Aaron E Nowack

Sat

Jan 13
2001

18:24Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian war results

On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:34:52 cst "Louis Pasztor" 
writes:
> Century Council of Razanian Kingdoms to the Grand Council of Aryisa:
> 
>         We do see reason to your words, but you also have to see 
> reason to 
> ours. The Razanian Kingdoms fought hard to liberate the lands from 
> your 
> Nation, many lives lost doing so. The Kingdoms will not be happy to 
> simply 
> give those lands back.
>         We also have all intentions of protecting our people, aswell 
> as the 
> ones within Aryisa. We don't expect them to come all rushing among 
> the 
> KIngdoms, but I am sure they would rather leave Aryisa than continue 
> slaving 
> for your Nation, which is why the Razanian Front was created. So by 
> letting 
> the Razanian serfs free and to not treat as your nation have in last 
> 
> century, they'll confident enough to stay we are sure, especially 
> with a 
> treaty protecting them.
>         By leaving our people free and unmolested, the Razanian 
> Front will 
> stop rebelling. By giving them control of Haran, they'll agree leave 
> your 
> people unmolested and to be considered citizens of the Razanian 
> Front of 
> Haran. To have a Joint nation of both our people would sure improve 
> relations. We do have representives of the Razanian Front at our 
> council to 
> confirm this proposition.
>         If your people are so worried about your people as we do 
> with ours 
> at Haran, we can also place Aryisa military and Razanian Kingdoms 
> militaries 
> as "peacekeepers" there, or ask a third party to do so.
>         If Aryisa agree to give up Haran to the Razanian Front, the 
> Razanian 
> Kingdoms will agree to giving back the territory they liberated from 
> your 
> nation up to where the borders of Tesh and Canor originally was, all 
> lands 
> east of Razan River from Karan and lands taken at Nostan. Also, 
> Razanian 
> Front will cease all actions against Aryisa.
>         We suggest we should negociate somewhere in more of personal 
> manner, 
> we have many issues to negociate so we may all live in peace. Do 
> remember, 
> your nation was created by stealing the nations of others.
> 
> 
>                                                    Century Council


To the Century Council:

	It is obvious to us that the major sticking points remaining before us
are the status of Haran and the issue of serfdom.  If these two issues
could be settled, a lasting peace could be made.
	First, let us address the issue of Haran.  We once again state our
belief that the port of Haran is absolutely vital to the continued safety
and health of the Nation of Aryisa.  However, we feel we must compromise
on this issue to some degree.  Thus, we will be willing to accept an
sovergein city-state in Haran.  This city-state would include the city
itself and all territory south of the Haran River.  The remainder of the
Duchy of Haran will remain under Aryisan sovergeinity. The city-state
will remain a non-militarized state, though a small militia will be
allowed for non-offensive purposes.  Equal forces of the Aryisan and
Razanian militaries shall also be posted in the City-State of Haran to
oversee the establishment of the city-state for a period of no less than
ten years.  If in return you will accept the 1406 borders for Aryisa in
all other respects, that will be acceptable. 
	On the issue of serfdom, we resent the implication that slavery exists
in Aryisa.  It is one of our most ancient laws, set down in the Warrior's
Codex, that no man may own another.  Such is the way of our people. 
Serfdom is also the way of our people, where those who cannot defend
themselves serve those who can defend them.  There are Asagmari serfs as
well as Razanian ones in Aryisa, and the Razanian serfs have the same
rights as those of Asagmari descent.   We cannot see any way to allow the
serfs to leave their lands without causing massive starvation in Aryisa. 
However, we will be willing to establish laws against cruelty to serfs.
	If these two compromises are acceptable to you, we can meet to finalize
the details and sign this treaty.  We could have peace once more.

					Signed,
					Regent Alvar III
					Duke Iyan, Chancellor of Aryisa
					[other Council members]
  
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GuillaumeIso8859
Guillaume =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=E9nager?=

Mon

Jan 15
2001

08:41Z

[Cel] [qai] Razanian/Arysian Peace.

A letter to the Grand Council of Arysia and to the Century Council of the Razanian
kingdoms, later published through Quaiyore.

"From the Meltolyn, Council of the State of Celpalar to:
The Grand Council of Arysia and namely to His Highness the regent Alvar III and to
His Grace the Duke Iyan, Chancellor of Arysia,
The Century Council of the Razanian Kingdoms and namely to Their Majesties the
sovereigns of  Bernar, Farnor, Taran, Taranta, Canor, Tesh, Narton, Karan, Minot,
Sayn, Sargor, Non and Sout, and those acting on their behalf in the Century
Council,

After long deliberation, it is the will of the people of Celpalar reunited into its
Appela to issue the following statement of friendship:
The State of Celpalar considers the unending war on the so-called Razanian Coast a
tragedy for its inhabitants and a shame for a continent facing the rise of a dark
god. We have always considered with a particuliar attention the long errand of the
valiant Asagmari people, and we will not renounce our long friendship in such a
dire hour. We also came to appreciate the many fine qualities of our new Razanian
friends. Thus our hearts were grieving by each new death.
It is in this spirit of shared friendship that we refused to sell weapons to either
of you, in order to lessen the harm happening. It was not a defiance act in any
case.

Due to the recent progress of peace in your negotiations, we, State of Celpalar,
propose our help to the nations of the Razanian/Arysian coast. We are not in any
way going to help either of you to implement a "peace" which would be a covert
military action, but if your hearts find enough wisdom to enact a real peace, we
shall help both of you in keeping this peace.
Therefore, we invit any other major power who feels concerned by the tragedy of our
neighbours to come to their help by providing forces and support for this peace
process. We namely invit the most glorious empire of the Laria'rathi and its most
wise and munificient leader, Prince Selpa'a, to express their views.
We would be delighted if the very ancient and respectable civilization of Mir was
to endorse this peace and commit itself in it, far from any mean interest.

Provided a lasting peace agreement is reached, a nucleus of Celpalar forces,
reinforced by all those willing to help, is ready to help monitoring the peace.
We propose to institute a peace force, which should include a naval component to
patrol the rivers and coasts. This force will be empowered by both side of limited
police attribution to enforce the peace; obviously it will have a commandment
structure independant from both side. The commander of this force will only be
responsible in front of the political assemblies delegating powers, namely the
Great Council of Arysia and the Century Council of the Razanians.

Regarding the peace process itself, the State of Celpalar refuses any implication
in your negotiations and specially in the determination of your future borders.
Nevertheless, considering the embarassment of the Haran case, we propose to make it
a free-city state, under the nominal sovereignty of Arysia but ruled on a daily
basis by international forces, a council of wise men chosen by both side may be
appointed to help the international forces in the governement of Haran. In any
case, personnal status would be conserved. Due to the Razanian concern over the
status of their people in this area, it appears acceptable to offer their Majesties
the Sovereigns of the Razanian kingdoms the opportunity to repay the freedom of the
serfs they deem worth it. This should insure that the legitimate social order will
be maintened and compensate the local land lords for their loss of manpower. The
prices shall be the normal fees of manumission (freeing a slave) under Arysian law,
no more, no less. We obviously won't take any part in political police operations,
especially against the so-called Razanian Front.

Provided you both agree to swear the peace in front of the gods and men, we will
endanger the lives of our people and the prosperity of our situation and come to
your help. We pray the gods that wisdom prevails in your councils and that peace
shall reign over your lands. In sign of devotion, next week will be a sacrificial
week and a great procession will happen in Areneth on Nasir 4th to pray the Maker
to help your decisions.

It is the will of the people of the State of Celpalar that this text becomes a law
of the State. It has been approved by the Appela on Nasir 1st and confirmed by the
Ephors the same day.

In Areneth, on Nasir 1st, for the Meltolyn, Chrysocheiros, secretary."

Special copies are made for the chancelleries of all the nations with whom Celpalar
has diplomatical relations. This doesn't include Sinari.
______________________________________________________________


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MkeAton
Archangel

Fri

Jan 12
2001

23:58Z

[Cel] [qai] Haran correction

Haran:
With the removal of the modifier for the Celepar arms from the Haran result,
this reduces the Razanian victory to +1.  While possession of the Haran area
is not affected by this change, the Arysian casualties are reduced from
4,500 to 3,000.  My apologies for the confusion and a heartfelt thanks for
catching that for me.

Main Conflict:
Discussed the matter with Jason.  Results stand without Mirrish intrusion
militarily.


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LouisPasztor
Louis Pasztor

Sat

Jan 13
2001

01:09Z

[Cel] [qai] Haran correction

>Haran:
>With the removal of the modifier for the Celepar arms from the Haran 
>result,
>this reduces the Razanian victory to +1.  While possession of the Haran 
>area
>is not affected by this change, the Arysian casualties are reduced from
>4,500 to 3,000.  My apologies for the confusion and a heartfelt thanks for
>catching that for me.
>

Then why did Celpelar offer to trade weapons and other manufactured goods 
for razanian resources in 1420? which has succeeded.

They may not be selling them, but sure are trading them off to the Razanians 
as far as i see it, base on past actions Celpalar as done.


-LordLMP
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