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Celandra is a game in which the players take the roles of societies, rather than playing individual characters. The players will invent a society with its culture and heritage, and will guide its development and interaction with the world. Emphasis will be be placed on developing a detailed history of Celandra, along with myths and legends.
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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Tue

Jul 15
2003

07:35Z

[Cel] Maintaining Armed Forces: A speculative essay

One of the things that's always niggled me a little about IH was the
abstractness about some of the Determinants involved. Abstraction is
necessary, of course, or the game would be unplayable, but I'm a person
who likes concreteness. In particular, I've often wondered about the
interrelation between a society's scope, its economy, and its armed
forces. The formulas we have seem to work pretty well, but I've never
been able to get clear mental pictures from them.

Well, the other night I was re-reading Sun-Tzu's "Art of War". For a
book that was written two and a half millenia ago, it's aged well. Now,
in Chapter 2, 'Waging War', Sun-Tzu says that to raise an army of
100,000 men, equip them in all respects, provision them for a march of
330 miles, and then support them in the field, will require the
expenditure of 1,000 ounces of silver per day. That works out to a
total of 22,812.5 pounds of silver per year to maintain that same army.
Silver is currently trading at $4.79/oz, so a little math tells us that
in the year 500 BC, a Chinese army of 100,000 men would consume the
rough equivalent of $1.75 million per year to operate as a field force,
or $4,790 per diem. Sun-Tzu's figure of 1,000oz of silver includes
expenditures both at home and in field, plus allowance for unforseen
events, such as emergency repairs.

Now, obviously, drawing straight comparisons like this is slightly
absurd, because the cost of maintaining an army depends on things like
the level of technology and the cost of living. Still, it does give us
some ballpark figures. Going by Sun-Tzu's estimate and assuming a
similar tech level(equal to the Warring States period or to the early
Roman empire), for every 100 men in your army, you can expect to spend
an ounce of silver per day. So, using the tables from the IH Rules
Site:

Scope                        Daily Cost
------------------------------------------------
Vast                >200,000           >2000ozAg
Huge                 200,000            2000ozAg       
Great                100,000            1000ozAg
Big                   30,000             300ozAg
Fair                  10,000             100ozAg
Mediocre               3,000              30ozAg 
Small                  1,000              10ozAg
V. Small                 300               3ozAg
Tiny                      20              .2ozAg

Of course, this completely ignores the possibility that a nation's
standing forces may include or consist solely of naval units.
Maintaining a fleet and its necessary support facilities is far more
expensive than maintaining an army and its facilities. It assumes that
the army is actively campaigning. And it ignores the effect of raising
the reserves. Just as an example, if a society of scope Huge were to
call up reserves to their max of 2 million men, expenditures would jump
to 20,000oz of silver per day. Keeping those two million men in the
field for a year would cost 7.3 million ounces of silver, or roughly
$35 million of today's dollars per year. And that's not counting the
ripple effect to an economy of losing the economic inputs of the
reservists/draftees.

Sun-Tzu also points out that an army on campaign *must* live off the
land as much as possible. A large army draws heavily from the treasury,
which raises taxes to try and compensate, thus pulling money out of the
pockets of the peasants. An army's presence also tends to cause local
increases in prices, further draining the substance of the common
people. And, an army in the field has a much higher rate of
wear-and-tear & supply consumption; for example, the current model of
combat boot used by the US Army is rated for three year's use in
peacetime, but only six months in wartime. In Sun-Tzu's day, these
factors meant that a peasant family could lose 30% of its income to war
taxes and war inflation, while their government finds itself spending
40% or more of its revenues to support the army in the field. Again,
these figures are for China in 500 BC, but I think a rough parallel may
be drawn.

What this little exercise should bring home is the fact that war, in
any era, is *expensive*. Armies are *expensive*. Sun-Tzu was absolutely
right when he said that "There is no instance of a country having
benefitted from prolonged warfare." 

And what may this imply for the nations of Qaiyore? Well, as the rules
already state, prolonged war with full mobilization *will* eventually
hurt your society's economic determinants. No if's about it. The cost
of war, even without that mobilization must be considered. Cedonia,
before 1420, was large enough and secure enough to embark on a program
of conquest using only their standing army. An examination of what
Sun-Tzu has written suggests that even that would not have been
sustainable in the long run. And then, of course, the Sinari went on
crusade. Even given that the Sinari invasion was not quite twenty years
ago, most of the societies directly involved in fighting them should
probably think twice about getting into another conflict so soon. Mir
is probably an exception to this, AFAIK the Sinari never came close to
reaching the Island of Mir--of course, with a society Scope of Fair,
going on a conquista could get expensive.

As for Cedonia and myself, civil wars are a different kettle of fish in
terms of costs. Much more expensive for the common man in some ways,
and far harder to stop.

Andrew Janssen

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JuhaVesanto
juuso

Wed

Jul 16
2003

21:53Z

[Cel] Maintaining Armed Forces: A speculative essay

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Andrew Janssen wrote:
> One of the things that's always niggled me a little about IH was the
> abstractness about some of the Determinants involved. Abstraction is
> necessary, of course, or the game would be unplayable, but I'm a person
> who likes concreteness. In particular, I've often wondered about the
> interrelation between a society's scope, its economy, and its armed
> forces. The formulas we have seem to work pretty well, but I've never
> been able to get clear mental pictures from them.

 <... good stuff from Andrew snipped ...>
 <... lengthy reply from me snipped because it was lost due to a
      network failure ...>

The IH rules work "well" primarily because the GM interprets them.
Does anyone know of some (other) good but simple mass combat system
which takes into account the effect of the war on society resources?

juuso
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JoelElfman
Joel Elfman

Fri

Jul 18
2003

12:06Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

I have made more then one request to the GMs for clarification of the current status areas of the board.  And now I ask further clarification about the current rules themselves.

1)   the extent of the Tal-Wyr basin which impacts teh current spy network that tried to assasinate King Villard.  At it's shortest geographical area it covers a semi-nomadic society which would have little to no need for assassins.  Larger the spy network delves into other societies and could reach as far as Kaeir.

2)   I have requested a GMs perspective of King Agrigax of Taltheran.  Supposedly Agrigax has recently lost Tirmar & his Navy.  Is this accurate?  Is he regarded as a weak king?

3)   The last question above raises an even broader game issue and potential violation of the rules.  In the past, it has been regarded that all borders of societies are pretty much sacrosanct, and that only the society could dictate its own actions.  Recently, it seems that Tirmar in Taltheran has been taken over by Mir.  And again in Taltheran the Navy has been taken over by Kaeir.

In Mirish orders there is a comment that newish province Yora-Tirmar does not border Taltheran and  that maybe true depending on how the border is drawn but under current rules, Tirmar shows as part of the society of Taltheran and however Mir wants to draw a new set of borders Tirmar is still part of Taltheran society.  Of course, if there was a Taltheran player he could play Tirmar under Mirish control, but unless the GMs are actually choosing to alter the society itself or its geographic borders it is their responsibility to protect non-player societies from usurpation by players.  Are the GMs intending to change societies or their geogrpahic borders due to the recent wars?  And what changes are being made?

In Taltheran the same question appears in regard to it's Navy.  Kaeir's actions appear to have ripped the Navy from Taltheran.  While Kaeir has that potential right, any orders it generate must be carefully written to respect the rights of the non-player society.  Again, if there was a Taltheran player he could write actions for a rebel navy but Kaier can not.  Kaeir can only write actions for itself.  Kaeir can write actions for its leaders or its men aboard the rebel Taltheran navy but not for the navy itself unless the GMs are going to change the definitions of Taltheran society.

  At least, these were the old rules as I understood them.  If I am incorrect, I ask that the GMs please provide clarification.

Joel

 



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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Fri

Jul 18
2003

23:36Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

Hi,

here's my two cents.  Scroll down for more than a few comments.

At the end of the day, I'm sure everything can be resolved to everybody's satisfaction.

Cheers,

Ibrahim Underwood

----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Elfman 
Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

> 1)   the extent of the Tal-Wyr basin which impacts teh current spy 
> network that tried to assasinate King Villard.  At it's shortest 
> geographical area it covers a semi-nomadic society which would 
> have little to no need for assassins.  Larger the spy network 
> delves into other societies and could reach as far as Kaeir.

The Order of Assassins in medieval Palestine-Syria operated amongst very similiar conditions, based on a religious-messianic ideology.  Yet it still had a highly effective spy-cum-assassin network that terrorised Crusader and Muslim rulers alike.

> 2)   I have requested a GMs perspective of King Agrigax of 
> Taltheran.  Supposedly Agrigax has recently lost Tirmar & his 
> Navy.  Is this accurate?  Is he regarded as a weak king?

Though I'm not the GM, in my opinion he's not weak, just failing miserably at centralising royal power in attempt to move away from a feudal model of government (and thus a aristocratic reaction).

 
> 3)   The last question above raises an even broader game issue and 
> potential violation of the rules.  In the past, it has been 
> regarded that all borders of societies are pretty much sacrosanct, 
> and that only the society could dictate its own actions.  
> Recently, it seems that Tirmar in Taltheran has been taken over by 
> Mir.  And again in Taltheran the Navy has been taken over by Kaeir.

A political division in Taltheran wrested control of a major portion (not all) of the Taltherani Navy from government forces, into the hands of a republican government established in the Kaeir islands.

> 
> In Taltheran the same question appears in regard to it's Navy.  
> Kaeir's actions appear to have ripped the Navy from Taltheran.  
> While Kaeir has that potential right, any orders it generate must 
> be carefully written to respect the rights of the non-player 
> society.  Again, if there was a Taltheran player he could write 
> actions for a rebel navy but Kaier can not.  Kaeir can only write 
> actions for itself.  Kaeir can write actions for its leaders or 
> its men aboard the rebel Taltheran navy but not for the navy 
> itself unless the GMs are going to change the definitions of 
> Taltheran society.

I think I should clarify some matters regarding Kaeir.  In the last active period of the game, Kaeir was conquered by Taltheran.

The current form that Kaeir takes is a Taltheran-Kaeir hybrid that has revolted agains the Taltherani King, and seeks to change Taltheran itself.  The Kaeirean Republican Revolution was not a reaction against Taltherani rule (having been successfully colonised), but part of a broader Taltherani reaction against Aggrigax's centralisation of power in Taltheran.  This reaction may not be explicit in the earlier game moves, but it is very realistic.  Military power lay largely in the hands of the Taltherani Houses, not the King, in previous turns, and this inbalance of power was on of the things Aggrigax was trying to address (as well as increase royal control through greater trade and a better navy).

The participants in the revolution were political, commercial and military elements of Taltheran that had played key roles in colonising the old piratical Kaeir.  Particularly the merchant and nobles houses, almost all of whom come from mainland Taltheran, but whose Kaeirean branches have taken on more importance in recent years.

The Kaeirean Republic is Kaeirean only because the Revolution started in the newly formed Taltherani Principality of Kaeir.  It is a proto-revolutionary movement intended not to sever Kaeir from Taltheran (it's not even a concept), but to sever all aspects of the Talherani monarchy from Taltheran.

At the end of the day, it's a civil war.  If the republicans are defeated by the forces of the monarchy, I can also envisage "Kaeireanism" going underground as a secret political philosophy/organisation.

I have based all my developments of the society (remembering that the game is allows PS's on multiple levels) on the fact that Kaeir had been forcefully, but highly successfully, integrated into Taltheran.  It was this new status, and its distance from the capital, that made it the rallying point for the original Taltherani anti-monarchist forces that then developed into "Kaeirean" republicanism.

Just to repeat, Kaeirean Republic is not a Talherani separatism but revolution.

>  At least, these were the old rules as I understood them.  If I 
> am incorrect, I ask that the GMs please provide clarification.

So i feel that I am more than within the bounds of the game rules.




NOTICE: This communication is meant only for the addressee(s) named above and may contain information which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the named addressee(s), or the agent responsible for receiving and delivering this communication to the named addressee(s), this communication has been sent to you in error. If so, kindly contact us immediately for retrieval purposes. Unauthorised dissemination,distribution, copying or reliance on this communication is prohibited and may attract criminal penalties. Thank you.


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JoelElfman
Joel Elfman

Sat

Jul 19
2003

00:22Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

Ibrahim,
 
     I love the stuff you have written, your ideas are extremely well-written and well thoughtout.
 
     I will reiterate two of the points that I think are in  question and  I at least would like clarification from the GM.
 
First, spy networks take time to develop, a long time in many cases.  It has been my experience from playing previously,  that if you don't usually get a spy network unless you build it.
 
Second, you can not write orders for another society, unless the GM gives permission.  For example, you can write actions for your commanders giving the rebel Taltheran navy orders but you can not write orders directly for the navy.  It might just be a distinction in how orders are written but it does make a difference in the game and has made a difference in the past.
 
Joel.

Ibrahim Dughlas-gani  wrote:
Hi,

here's my two cents. Scroll down for more than a few comments.

At the end of the day, I'm sure everything can be resolved to everybody's satisfaction.

Cheers,

Ibrahim Underwood

----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Elfman 
Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

> 1) the extent of the Tal-Wyr basin which impacts teh current spy 
> network that tried to assasinate King Villard. At it's shortest 
> geographical area it covers a semi-nomadic society which would 
> have little to no need for assassins. Larger the spy network 
> delves into other societies and could reach as far as Kaeir.

The Order of Assassins in medieval Palestine-Syria operated amongst very similiar conditions, based on a religious-messianic ideology. Yet it still had a highly effective spy-cum-assassin network that terrorised Crusader and Muslim rulers alike.

> 2) I have requested a GMs perspective of King Agrigax of 
> Taltheran. Supposedly Agrigax has recently lost Tirmar & his 
> Navy. Is this accurate? Is he regarded as a weak king?

Though I'm not the GM, in my opinion he's not weak, just failing miserably at centralising royal power in attempt to move away from a feudal model of government (and thus a aristocratic reaction).


> 3) The last question above raises an even broader game issue and 
> potential violation of the rules. In the past, it has been 
> regarded that all borders of societies are pretty much sacrosanct, 
> and that only the society could dictate its own actions. 
> Recently, it seems that Tirmar in Taltheran has been taken over by 
> Mir. And again in Taltheran the Navy has been taken over by Kaeir.

A political division in Taltheran wrested control of a major portion (not all) of the Taltherani Navy from government forces, into the hands of a republican government established in the Kaeir islands.

> 
> In Taltheran the same question appears in regard to it's Navy. 
> Kaeir's actions appear to have ripped the Navy from Taltheran. 
> While Kaeir has that potential right, any orders it generate must 
> be carefully written to respect the rights of the non-player 
> society. Again, if there was a Taltheran player he could write 
> actions for a rebel navy but Kaier can not. Kaeir can only write 
> actions for itself. Kaeir can write actions for its leaders or 
> its men aboard the rebel Taltheran navy but not for the navy 
> itself unless the GMs are going to change the definitions of 
> Taltheran society.

I think I should clarify some matters regarding Kaeir. In the last active period of the game, Kaeir was conquered by Taltheran.

The current form that Kaeir takes is a Taltheran-Kaeir hybrid that has revolted agains the Taltherani King, and seeks to change Taltheran itself. The Kaeirean Republican Revolution was not a reaction against Taltherani rule (having been successfully colonised), but part of a broader Taltherani reaction against Aggrigax's centralisation of power in Taltheran. This reaction may not be explicit in the earlier game moves, but it is very realistic. Military power lay largely in the hands of the Taltherani Houses, not the King, in previous turns, and this inbalance of power was on of the things Aggrigax was trying to address (as well as increase royal control through greater trade and a better navy).

The participants in the revolution were political, commercial and military elements of Taltheran that had played key roles in colonising the old piratical Kaeir. Particularly the merchant and nobles houses, almost all of whom come from mainland Taltheran, but whose Kaeirean branches have taken on more importance in recent years.

The Kaeirean Republic is Kaeirean only because the Revolution started in the newly formed Taltherani Principality of Kaeir. It is a proto-revolutionary movement intended not to sever Kaeir from Taltheran (it's not even a concept), but to sever all aspects of the Talherani monarchy from Taltheran.

At the end of the day, it's a civil war. If the republicans are defeated by the forces of the monarchy, I can also envisage "Kaeireanism" going underground as a secret political philosophy/organisation.

I have based all my developments of the society (remembering that the game is allows PS's on multiple levels) on the fact that Kaeir had been forcefully, but highly successfully, integrated into Taltheran. It was this new status, and its distance from the capital, that made it the rallying point for the original Taltherani anti-monarchist forces that then developed into "Kaeirean" republicanism.

Just to repeat, Kaeirean Republic is not a Talherani separatism but revolution.

> At least, these were the old rules as I understood them. If I 
> am incorrect, I ask that the GMs please provide clarification.

So i feel that I am more than within the bounds of the game rules.




NOTICE: This communication is meant only for the addressee(s) named above and may contain information which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the named addressee(s), or the agent responsible for receiving and delivering this communication to the named addressee(s), this communication has been sent to you in error. If so, kindly contact us immediately for retrieval purposes. Unauthorised dissemination,distribution, copying or reliance on this communication is prohibited and may attract criminal penalties. Thank you.


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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sat

Jul 19
2003

04:02Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

Well, here's my two cents thrown into the pot . . .

--- Joel Elfman  wrote:
> Ibrahim,
>  
>      I love the stuff you have written, your ideas are extremely
> well-written and well thoughtout.
>  
>      I will reiterate two of the points that I think are in  question
> and  I at least would like clarification from the GM.
>  
> First, spy networks take time to develop, a long time in many cases. 
> It has been my experience from playing previously,  that if you don't
> usually get a spy network unless you build it.

Generally true, but I don't know enough about the background of this
particular incident to say more.
  
> Second, you can not write orders for another society, unless the GM
> gives permission.  For example, you can write actions for your
> commanders giving the rebel Taltheran navy orders but you can not
> write orders directly for the navy.  It might just be a distinction
> in how orders are written but it does make a difference in the game
> and has made a difference in the past.

Agreed, but I don't think there's an issue at all here. Like Ibrahim
said himself, it wasn't the entire Taltherani navy that rebelled, only
a portion. It's possible that perhaps unclear writing may have caused
your concern here, Joel. So, I agree that you can't write orders for
another society, but I don't agree that that rule is applicable to
Kaeir and its naval forces, as the situation now stands.

More comments below . . .
  
> Joel.
> 
> Ibrahim Dughlas-gani  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> here's my two cents. Scroll down for more than a few comments.
> 
> At the end of the day, I'm sure everything can be resolved to
> everybody's satisfaction.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ibrahim Underwood
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joel Elfman 
> Date: Friday, July 18, 2003 8:06 pm
> Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering
> the Rules?
> 
> > 1) the extent of the Tal-Wyr basin which impacts teh current spy 
> > network that tried to assasinate King Villard. At it's shortest 
> > geographical area it covers a semi-nomadic society which would 
> > have little to no need for assassins. Larger the spy network 
> > delves into other societies and could reach as far as Kaeir.
> 
> The Order of Assassins in medieval Palestine-Syria operated amongst
> very similiar conditions, based on a religious-messianic ideology.
> Yet it still had a highly effective spy-cum-assassin network that
> terrorised Crusader and Muslim rulers alike.

I could buy that there's a quasi-religious order of assassins hanging
around out there in the ruins of Wyr, Sarunor or Hadrair, but if they
do exist, I think I'd be more comfortable if they were a NPC society, a
tool that the GMs could use, for example.

> > 2) I have requested a GMs perspective of King Agrigax of 
> > Taltheran. Supposedly Agrigax has recently lost Tirmar & his 
> > Navy. Is this accurate? Is he regarded as a weak king?
> 
> Though I'm not the GM, in my opinion he's not weak, just failing
> miserably at centralising royal power in attempt to move away from a
> feudal model of government (and thus a aristocratic reaction).

I agree with Ibrahim here. Taltheran has been going through a typical
power struggle between King and Aristos. It's a motif we can see in our
own history. In France, the Bourbon kings succeeded in establishing
their power over the nobles, a power that reached its peak with Louis
XIV; the Russian Tsars did the same thing, first with Ivan IV the
Terrible, and then with Peter the Great. Both formed absolute
monarchies under the divine right of kings theory. In England, King
John was forced to compromise with his barons, eventually creating the
constitutional monarchy. Finally, the Holy Roman Empire and the
medieval Kingdom of Poland are both classic examples of states where
the aristocracy dominated the nominal monarch.

Agrigax isn't a weak king in the sense that, say, Edward the II of
England was weak. He's simply not as strong as some of his nobles.

> > 3) The last question above raises an even broader game issue and 
> > potential violation of the rules. In the past, it has been 
> > regarded that all borders of societies are pretty much sacrosanct, 
> > and that only the society could dictate its own actions. 
> > Recently, it seems that Tirmar in Taltheran has been taken over by 
> > Mir. And again in Taltheran the Navy has been taken over by Kaeir.

I would have to say here, Joel, that Tirmar is a special case
situation. Tirmar was not originally part of Taltheran. In 1407-1408,
Cedonia invaded Tirmar to reintegrate it as an Imperial province. King
Agrigax complained to the then-Empress, Yzara, about the flood of
refugees this was causing. The result was that Tirmar was partitioned
along the border shown in the Qaiyore map for 1412 on the website.

While I ended up having to drop out of the game before the final battle
against the Sinari, I suspect that the reason Tirmar was repartitioned
along the lines shown in the 1428 map was simply that Cedonia and Mir
had the two largest military forces left in the area, and they filled a
power vacuum.

I do think, though, that we should get a ruling from the GM on whether
or not Mir's action is OK. I'm slightly in favor of it, because I think
it could give rise to future "plot points". And, as I said in a
different post, Tirmar is the Poland of Qaiyore, always being
partitioned by greater powers.

> A political division in Taltheran wrested control of a major portion
> (not all) of the Taltherani Navy from government forces, into the
> hands of a republican government established in the Kaeir islands.
> 
> > 
> > In Taltheran the same question appears in regard to it's Navy. 
> > Kaeir's actions appear to have ripped the Navy from Taltheran. 
> > While Kaeir has that potential right, any orders it generate must 
> > be carefully written to respect the rights of the non-player 
> > society. Again, if there was a Taltheran player he could write 
> > actions for a rebel navy but Kaier can not. Kaeir can only write 
> > actions for itself. Kaeir can write actions for its leaders or 
> > its men aboard the rebel Taltheran navy but not for the navy 
> > itself unless the GMs are going to change the definitions of 
> > Taltheran society.
> 

(Ibrahim's explantion of Kaeir snipped for space)

> > At least, these were the old rules as I understood them. If I 
> > am incorrect, I ask that the GMs please provide clarification.
> 
> So i feel that I am more than within the bounds of the game rules.
> 

Clarification is always good.

Andrew Janssen


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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Sat

Jul 19
2003

04:48Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

Joel,

I understand the points you are making, but think the problem is simply confusion between the two of us.

----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Elfman 
Date: Saturday, July 19, 2003 8:22 am
Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

> Ibrahim,
> 
>     I love the stuff you have written, your ideas are extremely 
> well-written and well thoughtout.
> 
>     I will reiterate two of the points that I think are in  
> question and  I at least would like clarification from the GM.
> 
> First, spy networks take time to develop, a long time in many 
> cases.  It has been my experience from playing previously,  that 
> if you don't usually get a spy network unless you build it.
An organised republican intelligence network ("Information Secretariat") is very new.  In fact, little more than a year old.  

As for the assassin business, that has nothing to do with Kaeireanism.

> 
> Second, you can not write orders for another society, unless the 
> GM gives permission.  For example, you can write actions for your 
> commanders giving the rebel Taltheran navy orders but you can not 
> write orders directly for the navy.  It might just be a 
> distinction in how orders are written but it does make a 
> difference in the game and has made a difference in the past.

I'm not proposing to write orders for another society.  Merely the one i'm operating from within.  

During the Kaeirean revolution that overthrow Agrigax's son in the new Principality of Kaeir (piratical Kaeir having been conquered 10+ years earlier), a portion of the Taltherani fleet joined the republican cause (largely, the squadrons stationed in Port Kaeir).  The Kaeirean Guard, formerly the personal troops of the Taltherani Crown Prince, were also under the republican banner, being the prime conspirators in initiating the revolution.  Completion of the revolution would require bringing the rest of Taltheran under the Republican Green, either through popular revolt or conquest.

All of these actions are within the polity of Taltheran, and constitute a civil war.  The factor that would determine success or failure would be support of the merchant and noble Houses on the _mainland_, for either the Royalist or Republican banner.

Kaeir/Kaeirean is used here in the same sense as the "Paris Commune", that shortlived socialist revolt last century in France.  Now that was not a separate society, but an attempt at a separate form of government.  The Commune was thoroughly French, but called the _Paris_ Commune because it began in _Paris_.

Having said that, a final say by the GM would allow everyone to get on with the game, adjusting where necessary to any new limitations.

Hope you're all having a dandy weekend.

Ibrahim Underwood




NOTICE: This communication is meant only for the addressee(s) named above and may contain information which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the named addressee(s), or the agent responsible for receiving and delivering this communication to the named addressee(s), this communication has been sent to you in error. If so, kindly contact us immediately for retrieval purposes. Unauthorised dissemination,distribution, copying or reliance on this communication is prohibited and may attract criminal penalties. Thank you.


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JoelElfman
Joel Elfman

Sat

Jul 19
2003

17:56Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

Ibrahim,
 
    You might be absolutely right!
 
As I mentioned these are questions/hiccups that the GMs can easily clear-up.
 
You and Andrew have cleared up the misunderstanding over Agrigax and I am starting to factor his situation in further actions.
 
As the Burcancy, I was forced to take a 20-30 yr action to develop a spy network from scratch, and I was told that was typical.  All soceties are different.  If the GM wants to change the length of time for other societies or in general that is fine.  I am happy to take less time myself.  As much as we would like to do everything we are trying for realism and some of this stuff does take time.

This game has gone on for so long and some of the details get lost in the fog of time, so perhaps I lost track of the changing of Tirmar.  The geographic map of the world appears to have Tirmar in Taltheran hands and that was what I was using.  I will explore the other maps and see what is being shown.  Still a ruling on what society is governing Tirmar would be useful if someone ever takes over.
 
Since it was perhaps my mistaken impression that a good percentage of the Taltheran navy had rebeled and joined the Kaier, it is my personal opinion if you wrote orders for that portion of the navy you are in technical violation of the rules.  On the other hand as I have stated if you change your orders slightly and write them as if the Kaieran Naval officers on rebel ships are giving commands to the rebel portion of the Taltheran navy you are entirely w/in the rules.  You are only writing orders for your people and the Taltherans make a die roll to respond.  It creates some interesting twists and turns, and can have some effect on actions.
 
It would be nice if some day the GMs or Juuso came along and issued some clarificatons.
 
Joel

Ibrahim Dughlas-gani  wrote:
Joel,

I understand the points you are making, but think the problem is simply confusion between the two of us.

----- Original Message -----
From: Joel Elfman 
Date: Saturday, July 19, 2003 8:22 am
Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

> Ibrahim,
> 
> I love the stuff you have written, your ideas are extremely 
> well-written and well thoughtout.
> 
> I will reiterate two of the points that I think are in 
> question and I at least would like clarification from the GM.
> 
> First, spy networks take time to develop, a long time in many 
> cases. It has been my experience from playing previously, that 
> if you don't usually get a spy network unless you build it.
An organised republican intelligence network ("Information Secretariat") is very new. In fact, little more than a year old. 

As for the assassin business, that has nothing to do with Kaeireanism.

> 
> Second, you can not write orders for another society, unless the 
> GM gives permission. For example, you can write actions for your 
> commanders giving the rebel Taltheran navy orders but you can not 
> write orders directly for the navy. It might just be a 
> distinction in how orders are written but it does make a 
> difference in the game and has made a difference in the past.

I'm not proposing to write orders for another society. Merely the one i'm operating from within. 

During the Kaeirean revolution that overthrow Agrigax's son in the new Principality of Kaeir (piratical Kaeir having been conquered 10+ years earlier), a portion of the Taltherani fleet joined the republican cause (largely, the squadrons stationed in Port Kaeir). The Kaeirean Guard, formerly the personal troops of the Taltherani Crown Prince, were also under the republican banner, being the prime conspirators in initiating the revolution. Completion of the revolution would require bringing the rest of Taltheran under the Republican Green, either through popular revolt or conquest.

All of these actions are within the polity of Taltheran, and constitute a civil war. The factor that would determine success or failure would be support of the merchant and noble Houses on the _mainland_, for either the Royalist or Republican banner.

Kaeir/Kaeirean is used here in the same sense as the "Paris Commune", that shortlived socialist revolt last century in France. Now that was not a separate society, but an attempt at a separate form of government. The Commune was thoroughly French, but called the _Paris_ Commune because it began in _Paris_.

Having said that, a final say by the GM would allow everyone to get on with the game, adjusting where necessary to any new limitations.

Hope you're all having a dandy weekend.

Ibrahim Underwood




NOTICE: This communication is meant only for the addressee(s) named above and may contain information which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the named addressee(s), or the agent responsible for receiving and delivering this communication to the named addressee(s), this communication has been sent to you in error. If so, kindly contact us immediately for retrieval purposes. Unauthorised dissemination,distribution, copying or reliance on this communication is prohibited and may attract criminal penalties. Thank you.


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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sun

Jul 20
2003

03:15Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

--- Joel Elfman  wrote:
> Ibrahim,
>  
>     You might be absolutely right!



> Since it was perhaps my mistaken impression that a good percentage of
> the Taltheran navy had rebeled and joined the Kaier, it is my
> personal opinion if you wrote orders for that portion of the navy you
> are in technical violation of the rules.  On the other hand as I have
> stated if you change your orders slightly and write them as if the
> Kaieran Naval officers on rebel ships are giving commands to the
> rebel portion of the Taltheran navy you are entirely w/in the rules. 
> You are only writing orders for your people and the Taltherans make a
> die roll to respond.  It creates some interesting twists and turns,
> and can have some effect on actions.

I think we may be making a mountain out of this particular molehill.

No, I don't think you're mistaking about the proportion of Taltheran's
navy that rebelled. But I do think that you may be mistaken about how
it should be handled in game. I see no difference between "writing
orders for that portion of the Navy" and "writing orders for the Naval
officers commanding the ships". Both amount to exactly the same
situation. Given what Ibrahim's shown us about the backstory for the
Kaeiran revolution, there's no justification for Taltheran being able
to have influence on that portion of its Navy that chose to rebel and
leave the parent society. Any officers or seamen assigned the Kaeir
naval sqaudrons who was loyal to Agrigax would have been either fled to
the mainland, or more likely were "purged" in the coup. Given the
Kaeiran tradition of Piracy before Taltheran took them over, I'm sure
they have no shortage of sailors.

I guess I don't see the problem here. I mean, I assume that when
Ibrahim wanted to play Kaeir, he talked to one of the GMs about his
concept for the society, and one of them OK'd it. If that's not true,
then I agree, we need a ruling, although I'm inclined to let stand
what's already been written. Perhaps every turn that passes before
Kaeir uses an action to specifically tighten control on their new navy,
the GM should check to see if a major portion counterrebels & returns
to Taltheran, but any such check should happen at the beginning of the
game year, *before* actions are sent in, as part of the usual check for
any "special" events. 

Andrew Janssen

> It would be nice if some day the GMs or Juuso came along and issued
> some clarificatons.
>  
> Joel
> 
> Ibrahim Dughlas-gani  wrote:
> Joel,
> 
> I understand the points you are making, but think the problem is
> simply confusion between the two of us.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joel Elfman 
> Date: Saturday, July 19, 2003 8:22 am
> Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering
> the Rules?
> 
> > Ibrahim,
> > 
> > I love the stuff you have written, your ideas are extremely 
> > well-written and well thoughtout.
> > 
> > I will reiterate two of the points that I think are in 
> > question and I at least would like clarification from the GM.
> > 
> > First, spy networks take time to develop, a long time in many 
> > cases. It has been my experience from playing previously, that 
> > if you don't usually get a spy network unless you build it.
> An organised republican intelligence network ("Information
> Secretariat") is very new. In fact, little more than a year old. 
> 
> As for the assassin business, that has nothing to do with
> Kaeireanism.
> 
> > 
> > Second, you can not write orders for another society, unless the 
> > GM gives permission. For example, you can write actions for your 
> > commanders giving the rebel Taltheran navy orders but you can not 
> > write orders directly for the navy. It might just be a 
> > distinction in how orders are written but it does make a 
> > difference in the game and has made a difference in the past.
> 
> I'm not proposing to write orders for another society. Merely the one
> i'm operating from within. 
> 
> During the Kaeirean revolution that overthrow Agrigax's son in the
> new Principality of Kaeir (piratical Kaeir having been conquered 10+
> years earlier), a portion of the Taltherani fleet joined the
> republican cause (largely, the squadrons stationed in Port Kaeir).
> The Kaeirean Guard, formerly the personal troops of the Taltherani
> Crown Prince, were also under the republican banner, being the prime
> conspirators in initiating the revolution. Completion of the
> revolution would require bringing the rest of Taltheran under the
> Republican Green, either through popular revolt or conquest.
> 
> All of these actions are within the polity of Taltheran, and
> constitute a civil war. The factor that would determine success or
> failure would be support of the merchant and noble Houses on the
> _mainland_, for either the Royalist or Republican banner.
> 
> Kaeir/Kaeirean is used here in the same sense as the "Paris Commune",
> that shortlived socialist revolt last century in France. Now that was
> not a separate society, but an attempt at a separate form of
> government. The Commune was thoroughly French, but called the _Paris_
> Commune because it began in _Paris_.
> 
> Having said that, a final say by the GM would allow everyone to get
> on with the game, adjusting where necessary to any new limitations.
> 
> Hope you're all having a dandy weekend.
> 
> Ibrahim Underwood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOTICE: This communication is meant only for the addressee(s) named
> above and may contain information which is confidential and/or
> legally privileged. If you are not the named addressee(s), or the
> agent responsible for receiving and delivering this communication to
> the named addressee(s), this communication has been sent to you in
> error. If so, kindly contact us immediately for retrieval purposes.
> Unauthorised dissemination,distribution, copying or reliance on this
> communication is prohibited and may attract criminal penalties. Thank
> you.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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JoelElfman
Joel Elfman

Sun

Jul 20
2003

03:38Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

Andrew,
 
    Would you feel the same way if you were the Taltheran player and this w as happening to your society?
Joel

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
--- Joel Elfman wrote:
> Ibrahim,
> 
> You might be absolutely right!



> Since it was perhaps my mistaken impression that a good percentage of
> the Taltheran navy had rebeled and joined the Kaier, it is my
> personal opinion if you wrote orders for that portion of the navy you
> are in technical violation of the rules. On the other hand as I have
> stated if you change your orders slightly and write them as if the
> Kaieran Naval officers on rebel ships are giving commands to the
> rebel portion of the Taltheran navy you are entirely w/in the rules. 
> You are only writing orders for your people and the Taltherans make a
> die roll to respond. It creates some interesting twists and turns,
> and can have some effect on actions.

I think we may be making a mountain out of this particular molehill.

No, I don't think you're mistaking about the proportion of Taltheran's
navy that rebelled. But I do think that you may be mistaken about how
it should be handled in game. I see no difference between "writing
orders for that portion of the Navy" and "writing orders for the Naval
officers commanding the ships". Both amount to exactly the same
situation. Given what Ibrahim's shown us about the backstory for the
Kaeiran revolution, there's no justification for Taltheran being able
to have influence on that portion of its Navy that chose to rebel and
leave the parent society. Any officers or seamen assigned the Kaeir
naval sqaudrons who was loyal to Agrigax would have been either fled to
the mainland, or more likely were "purged" in the coup. Given the
Kaeiran tradition of Piracy before Taltheran took them over, I'm sure
they have no shortage of sailors.

I guess I don't see the problem here. I mean, I assume that when
Ibrahim wanted to play Kaeir, he talked to one of the GMs about his
concept for the society, and one of them OK'd it. If that's not true,
then I agree, we need a ruling, although I'm inclined to let stand
what's already been written. Perhaps every turn that passes before
Kaeir uses an action to specifically tighten control on their new navy,
the GM should check to see if a major portion counterrebels & returns
to Taltheran, but any such check should happen at the beginning of the
game year, *before* actions are sent in, as part of the usual check for
any "special" events. 

Andrew Janssen

> It would be nice if some day the GMs or Juuso came along and issued
> some clarificatons.
> 
> Joel
> 
> Ibrahim Dughlas-gani wrote:
> Joel,
> 
> I understand the points you are making, but think the problem is
> simply confusion between the two of us.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joel Elfman 
> Date: Saturday, July 19, 2003 8:22 am
> Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering
> the Rules?
> 
> > Ibrahim,
> > 
> > I love the stuff you have written, your ideas are extremely 
> > well-written and well thoughtout.
> > 
> > I will reiterate two of the points that I think are in 
> > question and I at least would like clarification from the GM.
> > 
> > First, spy networks take time to develop, a long time in many 
> > cases. It has been my experience from playing previously, that 
> > if you don't usually get a spy network unless you build it.
> An organised republican intelligence network ("Information
> Secretariat") is very new. In fact, little more than a year old. 
> 
> As for the assassin business, that has nothing to do with
> Kaeireanism.
> 
> > 
> > Second, you can not write orders for another society, unless the 
> > GM gives permission. For example, you can write actions for your 
> > commanders giving the rebel Taltheran navy orders but you can not 
> > write orders directly for the navy. It might just be a 
> > distinction in how orders are written but it does make a 
> > difference in the game and has made a difference in the past.
> 
> I'm not proposing to write orders for another society. Merely the one
> i'm operating from within. 
> 
> During the Kaeirean revolution that overthrow Agrigax's son in the
> new Principality of Kaeir (piratical Kaeir having been conquered 10+
> years earlier), a portion of the Taltherani fleet joined the
> republican cause (largely, the squadrons stationed in Port Kaeir).
> The Kaeirean Guard, formerly the personal troops of the Taltherani
> Crown Prince, were also under the republican banner, being the prime
> conspirators in initiating the revolution. Completion of the
> revolution would require bringing the rest of Taltheran under the
> Republican Green, either through popular revolt or conquest.
> 
> All of these actions are within the polity of Taltheran, and
> constitute a civil war. The factor that would determine success or
> failure would be support of the merchant and noble Houses on the
> _mainland_, for either the Royalist or Republican banner.
> 
> Kaeir/Kaeirean is used here in the same sense as the "Paris Commune",
> that shortlived socialist revolt last century in France. Now that was
> not a separate society, but an attempt at a separate form of
> government. The Commune was thoroughly French, but called the _Paris_
> Commune because it began in _Paris_.
> 
> Having said that, a final say by the GM would allow everyone to get
> on with the game, adjusting where necessary to any new limitations.
> 
> Hope you're all having a dandy weekend.
> 
> Ibrahim Underwood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOTICE: This communication is meant only for the addressee(s) named
> above and may contain information which is confidential and/or
> legally privileged. If you are not the named addressee(s), or the
> agent responsible for receiving and delivering this communication to
> the named addressee(s), this communication has been sent to you in
> error. If so, kindly contact us immediately for retrieval purposes.
> Unauthorised dissemination,distribution, copying or reliance on this
> communication is prohibited and may attract criminal penalties. Thank
> you.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per
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JoelElfman
Joel Elfman

Sun

Jul 20
2003

03:46Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

Andrew,
 
    You are right you have gone to the heart of the issue.  if this was originally approved by one of the GMs then it is a non-issue.  If not then we definitely need a ruling.  I guess I assumed this was not approved and were just actions taken by Kaeir and then if it was pre-approved I probably should be embracing the taste of shoe leather. :-)
 
Joel

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
--- Joel Elfman wrote:
> Ibrahim,
> 
> You might be absolutely right!



> Since it was perhaps my mistaken impression that a good percentage of
> the Taltheran navy had rebeled and joined the Kaier, it is my
> personal opinion if you wrote orders for that portion of the navy you
> are in technical violation of the rules. On the other hand as I have
> stated if you change your orders slightly and write them as if the
> Kaieran Naval officers on rebel ships are giving commands to the
> rebel portion of the Taltheran navy you are entirely w/in the rules. 
> You are only writing orders for your people and the Taltherans make a
> die roll to respond. It creates some interesting twists and turns,
> and can have some effect on actions.

I think we may be making a mountain out of this particular molehill.

No, I don't think you're mistaking about the proportion of Taltheran's
navy that rebelled. But I do think that you may be mistaken about how
it should be handled in game. I see no difference between "writing
orders for that portion of the Navy" and "writing orders for the Naval
officers commanding the ships". Both amount to exactly the same
situation. Given what Ibrahim's shown us about the backstory for the
Kaeiran revolution, there's no justification for Taltheran being able
to have influence on that portion of its Navy that chose to rebel and
leave the parent society. Any officers or seamen assigned the Kaeir
naval sqaudrons who was loyal to Agrigax would have been either fled to
the mainland, or more likely were "purged" in the coup. Given the
Kaeiran tradition of Piracy before Taltheran took them over, I'm sure
they have no shortage of sailors.

I guess I don't see the problem here. I mean, I assume that when
Ibrahim wanted to play Kaeir, he talked to one of the GMs about his
concept for the society, and one of them OK'd it. If that's not true,
then I agree, we need a ruling, although I'm inclined to let stand
what's already been written. Perhaps every turn that passes before
Kaeir uses an action to specifically tighten control on their new navy,
the GM should check to see if a major portion counterrebels & returns
to Taltheran, but any such check should happen at the beginning of the
game year, *before* actions are sent in, as part of the usual check for
any "special" events. 

Andrew Janssen

> It would be nice if some day the GMs or Juuso came along and issued
> some clarificatons.
> 
> Joel
> 
> Ibrahim Dughlas-gani wrote:
> Joel,
> 
> I understand the points you are making, but think the problem is
> simply confusion between the two of us.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joel Elfman 
> Date: Saturday, July 19, 2003 8:22 am
> Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering
> the Rules?
> 
> > Ibrahim,
> > 
> > I love the stuff you have written, your ideas are extremely 
> > well-written and well thoughtout.
> > 
> > I will reiterate two of the points that I think are in 
> > question and I at least would like clarification from the GM.
> > 
> > First, spy networks take time to develop, a long time in many 
> > cases. It has been my experience from playing previously, that 
> > if you don't usually get a spy network unless you build it.
> An organised republican intelligence network ("Information
> Secretariat") is very new. In fact, little more than a year old. 
> 
> As for the assassin business, that has nothing to do with
> Kaeireanism.
> 
> > 
> > Second, you can not write orders for another society, unless the 
> > GM gives permission. For example, you can write actions for your 
> > commanders giving the rebel Taltheran navy orders but you can not 
> > write orders directly for the navy. It might just be a 
> > distinction in how orders are written but it does make a 
> > difference in the game and has made a difference in the past.
> 
> I'm not proposing to write orders for another society. Merely the one
> i'm operating from within. 
> 
> During the Kaeirean revolution that overthrow Agrigax's son in the
> new Principality of Kaeir (piratical Kaeir having been conquered 10+
> years earlier), a portion of the Taltherani fleet joined the
> republican cause (largely, the squadrons stationed in Port Kaeir).
> The Kaeirean Guard, formerly the personal troops of the Taltherani
> Crown Prince, were also under the republican banner, being the prime
> conspirators in initiating the revolution. Completion of the
> revolution would require bringing the rest of Taltheran under the
> Republican Green, either through popular revolt or conquest.
> 
> All of these actions are within the polity of Taltheran, and
> constitute a civil war. The factor that would determine success or
> failure would be support of the merchant and noble Houses on the
> _mainland_, for either the Royalist or Republican banner.
> 
> Kaeir/Kaeirean is used here in the same sense as the "Paris Commune",
> that shortlived socialist revolt last century in France. Now that was
> not a separate society, but an attempt at a separate form of
> government. The Commune was thoroughly French, but called the _Paris_
> Commune because it began in _Paris_.
> 
> Having said that, a final say by the GM would allow everyone to get
> on with the game, adjusting where necessary to any new limitations.
> 
> Hope you're all having a dandy weekend.
> 
> Ibrahim Underwood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOTICE: This communication is meant only for the addressee(s) named
> above and may contain information which is confidential and/or
> legally privileged. If you are not the named addressee(s), or the
> agent responsible for receiving and delivering this communication to
> the named addressee(s), this communication has been sent to you in
> error. If so, kindly contact us immediately for retrieval purposes.
> Unauthorised dissemination,distribution, copying or reliance on this
> communication is prohibited and may attract criminal penalties. Thank
> you.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per
>
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JuhaVesanto
juuso

Sun

Jul 20
2003

20:39Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Joel Elfman wrote:
>  Since it was perhaps my mistaken impression that a good percentage of
> the Taltheran navy had rebeled and joined the Kaier, it is my personal
> opinion if you wrote orders for that portion of the navy you are in
> technical violation of the rules.  On the other hand as I have stated if
> you change your orders slightly and write them as if the Kaieran Naval
> officers on rebel ships are giving commands to the rebel portion of the
> Taltheran navy you are entirely w/in the rules.  You are only writing
> orders for your people and the Taltherans make a die roll to respond.
> It creates some interesting twists and turns, and can have some effect
> on actions.
>
>  It would be nice if some day the GMs or Juuso came along and issued
> some clarificatons.

Fundamentally, it is the GM who decides, not the rules, so everything
below is Subject TO GM Approval (STOGMA), but since I have been invoked:

Technically I feel that Joel is right. Just to keep matters
straightforward, all actions should be performed, and written, from
the viewpoint of the player's own society - even if they effect or even
happen within some other society. Societies within other societies
are of course very sensitive in this sense. Note that although the players
in question may very well know what *actually* happens, using the correct
wording helps in keeping the actions clear for everybody else, too.

juuso

PS. The below is slightly off-track, so you can ignore it.

On the other hand (I'm an engineer, so for me there's always also the
other hand in every issue :-), it would be entirely possible to
change/bend the rules so that writing (or *suggesting*) actions for other
societies would be a valid approach. I myself have stepped over this line
once or twice. Or tried to: I think it was actually Joel who denied me the
priviledge to do so in Elyria game a year or two back...
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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Mon

Jul 21
2003

04:00Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Juha Vesanto (Juuso)" 
Date: Monday, July 21, 2003 4:39 am
Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003, Joel Elfman wrote:
> >  Since it was perhaps my mistaken impression that a good 
> percentage of
> > the Taltheran navy had rebeled and joined the Kaier, it is my 
> personal> opinion if you wrote orders for that portion of the navy 
> you are in
> > technical violation of the rules.  On the other hand as I have 
> stated if
> > you change your orders slightly and write them as if the Kaieran 
> Naval> officers on rebel ships are giving commands to the rebel 
> portion of the
> > Taltheran navy you are entirely w/in the rules.  You are only 
> writing> orders for your people and the Taltherans make a die roll 
> to respond.
> > It creates some interesting twists and turns, and can have some 
> effect> on actions.
> >
> >  It would be nice if some day the GMs or Juuso came along and issued
> > some clarificatons.
> 
> Fundamentally, it is the GM who decides, not the rules, so everything
> below is Subject TO GM Approval (STOGMA), but since I have been 
> invoked:
> Technically I feel that Joel is right. Just to keep matters
> straightforward, all actions should be performed, and written, from
> the viewpoint of the player's own society - even if they effect or 
> evenhappen within some other society. Societies within other societies
> are of course very sensitive in this sense. Note that although the 
> playersin question may very well know what *actually* happens, 
> using the correct
> wording helps in keeping the actions clear for everybody else, too.

Juuso,

I heartily agree, but it appears i am at a loss here.  As far as I can see, everything I have written for the Kaeirean Republic has been in the context of a society within a society (that is, the Republican revolution within the broader Taltherani society).

At no point in time have I described the Republic as encompassing Taltheran (not yet, anyway...).  I've been pretty straight forward about that from the start, i feel.  

At the heart of all of this I suspect, as you mentioned, clarity (or lack thereof).  Having said that, and knowing that I can be wordy on occasions, apologies for any confusion that may have originated with me.

To reiterate - the original reason i chose to develop the idea of the Kaeirean Republic is this:
1) Kaeir the piratical haunt had been conquered a decade before by Taltheran.
2) Kaeir then became a Taltherani Principality under the Crown Prince.
3) Taltheran as a whole began going through a massive upheaval as a result of the Sinari wars, and,
4) Agrigax's attempts to the consolidation of royal power.
5) As with any feudal society, attempts to change the status quo always brought about a reaction (successful or otherwise).  And the reaction to Agrigax in Taltheran is the Kaeirean Revolution and the resulting Republican government.

So the whole thing is still _inside_ Taltheran, not outside, or apart.  Should a foreign force threaten Taltheran's survival (hypothetically.. its not an invitation), the primitive civil patriotism of the Republic might force a temporary peace with Agrigax and the Royalists.

Lastly, the Republicans are still only a recent phenomena.  They've only recently consolidated their control of the old Kaeirean Principality (hence its only called the _Kaeirean_ Principality so far), and are now beginning to extend their feelers to the mainland.  It is not like Taltheran was shorn in two (though in the coming years...).

Lastly, if i'm off base here Juuso, i'm happy to modify.

cheers all, and apologies to those not involved in the NW Midsea!

Ibrahim Underwood



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JuhaVesanto
juuso

Mon

Jul 21
2003

13:18Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Ibrahim Dughlas-gani wrote:
> I heartily agree, but it appears i am at a loss here.

Well, truth to tell, so am I since I did *not* go back to the original
posts and read them. Therefore I'm not passing judgement here, I'm only
making observations based on recent posts. And the observation here is
that player societies within player societies are very delicate things.
Fortunately there are no disagreements (that I can see) of the state of
affairs, just a wish that the actors and targets in the actions would be
stated even more clearly.

So, in the *future*, perhaps an alternate wording to any action could be
suggested by anyone who feels their toes have been stepped upon?

> At no point in time have I described the Republic as encompassing
> Taltheran (not yet, anyway...).  I've been pretty straight forward about
> that from the start, i feel.

At least I have never had that kind of impression.

> lack thereof).  Having said that, and knowing that I can be wordy on
> occasions, apologies for any confusion that may have originated with me.

Wordy is good, IMHO :)

juuso
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JoelElfman
Joel Elfman

Mon

Jul 21
2003

15:57Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

Ibrahim,
 
    I am going to attempt to clarify my position one more time, and perhaps you could send Juuso a copy of your original actions so that he can review them more thoroughly just to be sure of what was first written.
 
    I love your writing and your ideas.  I am concerned that you are writing for what was part of Taltherean.  If your take-over of part of the Taltheran navy was not GM approved.  You just assumed the navy is coming over to your side.  I don't believe there was a die roll, you just wrote actions that advanced your ideas for Kaier.  By that token I could write actions taking over Vizinia, Parglur, Taltheran and any other non-player society I want as long as I come up w/ some semi-plausible rationale.
 
Until such time as a GM approves your takeover of the rebel section of the Taltherean navy my suggestion is that you consider changing the wording of some of your orders to direct your society and to influence the societies that you wish to.  You can probably do just about everything you want, you just may have do to slightly differently.  You can keep your plotline entirely intact and only reword your actions.  In the case of the fleet, again you have Kaier commanders aboard the rebel vessels who can give orders, you have Kaier naval personnel aboard the ships who can obey orders and the Taltherean navy who have rebeled have the choice of obeying or not depending on the dice.  Maybe all this is just a technicality but one that seems to help guard people from stepping over the boundaries of writing for other societies.  Another example, supposed I start writing actions for a Loyalist in Kaeir, would that be appropriate if I start assuming there are Loyalist forces in Kaier and
 suddenly start commanding a strong Loyalist counter-rebellion in your capital.  Where do you draw the boundaries?
 
Joel
 


"Juha Vesanto (Juuso)"  wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Ibrahim Dughlas-gani wrote:
> I heartily agree, but it appears i am at a loss here.

Well, truth to tell, so am I since I did *not* go back to the original
posts and read them. Therefore I'm not passing judgement here, I'm only
making observations based on recent posts. And the observation here is
that player societies within player societies are very delicate things.
Fortunately there are no disagreements (that I can see) of the state of
affairs, just a wish that the actors and targets in the actions would be
stated even more clearly.

So, in the *future*, perhaps an alternate wording to any action could be
suggested by anyone who feels their toes have been stepped upon?

> At no point in time have I described the Republic as encompassing
> Taltheran (not yet, anyway...). I've been pretty straight forward about
> that from the start, i feel.

At least I have never had that kind of impression.

> lack thereof). Having said that, and knowing that I can be wordy on
> occasions, apologies for any confusion that may have originated with me.

Wordy is good, IMHO :)

juuso
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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Sat

Jul 19
2003

04:34Z

[Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Janssen 
Date: Saturday, July 19, 2003 12:02 pm
Subject: Re: [Cel] GMs Please Respond - Are We Bending or Altering the Rules?

> Well, here's my two cents thrown into the pot . . .
[...]
> > > At least, these were the old rules as I understood them. If I 
> > > am incorrect, I ask that the GMs please provide clarification.
> > 
> > So i feel that I am more than within the bounds of the game rules.
> > 
> 
> Clarification is always good.

Andrew's essentially covered everything I was going to say, so I won't repeat it.

At the end of day, clarification by the GM would finalise the matter, and allow us to move on to the next turn.

These hiccups are not surprising, given the disruptions to game continuity that have occurred.

Ibrahim Underwood



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