[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

> 
> From: 
> Date: 29/11/2003 22:59:32
> To: celandra@phoenyx.net
> Subject: Re: [Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio
> 
Well, our 'religion' is based around our interactions with the ladies (a group of 4(?) deities in the Dreaming). There's not a lot of faith involved, more a suite of mutual agreements and interactions that have been going on for a thousand years or more. The human need for ritual comes more from interpersonal relationships and a very detailed 'science' of drama akin to Japanese Noh plays.

As for details of how the deities interact, you'll have to ask Juuso. My first reaction (based on last turn's visions) would be that they are somewhat powerful entities of the Dreaming who would be more likely to want to 'use' (in the political sense) a newcomer in the region of Qaiyore than to make friends. (Boss-man? You had some specific ideas for them, I suspect).

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

In a message dated 11/29/03 4:38:56 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
rafry@ozemail.com.au writes:

>  Well, our 'religion' is based around our interactions with the ladies (a 
> group of 4(?) deities in the Dreaming). There's not a lot of faith 
involved, 
> more a suite of mutual agreements and interactions that have been going on 
> for a thousand years or more. The human need for ritual comes more from 
> interpersonal relationships and a very detailed 'science' of drama akin to 
> Japanese Noh plays.

So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the 
interactions performed?

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

RulingNations@aol.com wrote:

>>more a suite of mutual agreements and interactions that have been going on 
>>for a thousand years or more. The human need for ritual comes more from 
>>interpersonal relationships and a very detailed 'science' of drama akin to 
>>Japanese Noh plays.
>>    
>>
>
>So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the 
>interactions performed?
>  
>
You know, those are interesting questions, and ones that have not been 
explored so
far on this list. At least, not that I remember it.

Here's my view/ideas on it; Keaton (or Bob) might see things differently:

Gods and other highly magical entities live in the Dreaming. They can 
visit Celandra
(the "hard place") but they will not stay there long, because "magic" is 
harder there than
in the Dreaming. It's kind of like diving with full equipment on: you 
can do it, but living
your whole life underseas is not something you would care to do. In 
Dreaming (and
especially on their own territory) the "reality conforms to their 
wishes" (TM / Neil Gaiman),
whereas on Celandra, the reality fights back.

Some gods gather worshippers from Celandra. Why? For various reasons. 
There's nothing
in particular on Celandra which the entities in Dreaming would need. The 
only unique resource
on Celandra is its relative stability; which makes it safer for 
less-powerful entities and which is
why there are occational migrations from Dreaming to Celandra. So, some 
do it for love,
some for the sake of tradition, some out of duty, some because it gives 
them status, and some
because people on Celandra can do them services.

Entities in Dreaming (can) provide their worshippers with
(1) a sense of direction: it's always so nice to have someone telling 
you what to do.
(2) various miracles/magic. The kind of miracles performed varies
quite a lot. Each (kind of) entity from the Dreaming seems to have a 
personal set of
limitations/possibilities, and each entity can learn to overcome some of 
those
limitations.
(3) information / teaching / access to or through the Dreaming to other 
places

As already mentioned, the worshippers provide the gods (typically)
with status and/or services. Or, in some cases, just some sort of personal
sense of satisfaction.

As to how: the god can personally enter Celandra, or work through a channel
(like in the latest Vision), or there might be a special arrangement 
that allows
the god to hear/answer prayers.

Entering Celandra is always a bit hard. There are places where it is 
easier,
and typically such entrance points (or portals) are used. The ultimate
entrance point is a direct portal between Celandra and Dreaming:
anyone/anything can go through it. In Elyria during the war against
the Sorcerer, such a direct portal was opened - and kept open
for several years. This was not a good thing, and eventually the portal
was closed. Working through a channel is the same, but opening the
channel is easier, and working through it less efficient, than being 
personally
present.

The Ladies have a close relationship with Ka'Shari. They probably have 
other
servants/worshippers on Celandra as well, but they haven't told me about
them (yet). I would suggest that the Ladies are the source of the 
Ka'Shari fresh
water on board (e.g. providing the magic / training required to clean 
the salt from
the sea water). The Ka'Shari provide the Ladies with services and 
information
from Celandra. There might be other benefits to either side.

Comments are welcome.

juuso






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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

In a message dated 11/29/03 11:23:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, juuso@iki.fi 
writes:
>RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
>
>>So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the 
>>interactions performed?
>
>You know, those are interesting questions, and ones that have not been
>explored so far on this list. At least, not that I remember it.
>
>Here's my view/ideas on it; Keaton (or Bob) might see things differently:
>
>Gods and other highly magical entities live in the Dreaming. They can
>visit Celandra (the "hard place") but they will not stay there long,
>because "magic" is harder there than in the Dreaming. It's kind of like
>diving with full equipment on: you can do it, but living your whole
>life underseas is not something you would care to do. In Dreaming (and
>especially on their own territory) the "reality conforms to their
>wishes" (TM / Neil Gaiman), whereas on Celandra, the reality fights
>back.

I assume that gods and similar entities compete and cooperate in the
Dreaming?

>Some gods gather worshippers from Celandra. Why? For various reasons.
>There's nothing in particular on Celandra which the entities in Dreaming
>would need. The only unique resource on Celandra is its relative
>stability; which makes it safer for less-powerful entities and which is
>why there are occational migrations from Dreaming to Celandra. So, some
>do it for love, some for the sake of tradition, some out of duty, some
>because it gives them status, and some because people on Celandra can do
>them services.

Consider the two principles: 1) There's nothing particularly useful to
Dreaming entities on Celandra; 2) Dreaming entities regularly affect
Celandra. Taken together I think you'll see that they lead to situations
that we simply would not be able to relate to. Since so much of Qaiyore
is based on real history something needs to give.

Personally I like the idea that there is something about human souls
that is useful to Dreaming entities. Possibly the Authority of a mortal
soul can be used to increase an entity's authority in the Dreaming? Of
course, there's no real need to define _what's_ useful, as long as we
consider that there's _something_ useful there.

>Entities in Dreaming (can) provide their worshippers with
>(1) a sense of direction: it's always so nice to have someone telling 
>you what to do.
>(2) various miracles/magic. The kind of miracles performed varies quite
>a lot. Each (kind of) entity from the Dreaming seems to have a personal
>set of limitations/possibilities, and each entity can learn to overcome
>some of those limitations.
>(3) information / teaching / access to or through the Dreaming to other 
>places
>
>As already mentioned, the worshippers provide the gods (typically)
>with status and/or services. Or, in some cases, just some sort of personal
>sense of satisfaction.
>
>As to how: the god can personally enter Celandra, or work through a
>channel (like in the latest Vision), or there might be a special
>arrangement that allows the god to hear/answer prayers.
>
>Entering Celandra is always a bit hard. There are places where it is
>easier, and typically such entrance points (or portals) are used. The
>ultimate entrance point is a direct portal between Celandra and
>Dreaming: anyone/anything can go through it. In Elyria during the war
>against the Sorcerer, such a direct portal was opened - and kept open
>for several years. This was not a good thing, and eventually the portal
>was closed. Working through a channel is the same, but opening the
>channel is easier, and working through it less efficient, than being
>personally present.
>
>The Ladies have a close relationship with Ka'Shari. They probably have
>other servants/worshippers on Celandra as well, but they haven't told
>me about them (yet). I would suggest that the Ladies are the source of
>the Ka'Shari fresh water on board (e.g. providing the magic / training
>required to clean the salt from the sea water). The Ka'Shari provide
>the Ladies with services and information from Celandra. There might be
>other benefits to either side.

So what is the nature of the Ladies? Do they have divine aspects? What
are their servants and personalities like?

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> I assume that gods and similar entities compete and cooperate in the
> Dreaming?

Yep. But of course they also do so on Celandra, although mostly
indirectly.

> Consider the two principles: 1) There's nothing particularly useful to
> Dreaming entities on Celandra; 2) Dreaming entities regularly affect
> Celandra. Taken together I think you'll see that they lead to situations
> that we simply would not be able to relate to. Since so much of Qaiyore
> is based on real history something needs to give.

Perhaps I failed to mention this: not all, certainly not even the most,
of the entities in the Dreaming affect / are affected by Celandra. Quite
the opposite.

There are only a relatively small amount of entities of the Dreaming
which have any serious amount of interaction with Celandra. However,
from the viewpoint of the religions / people on Celandra, those entities
are all that matters.

So, actually, I don't see any big problem with this setup. After all,
even if something is not essential, does not mean it could not be 
important. Until a few decades ago, diamonds did not have any practical
value - still they were perhaps even more valuable than today. I would
argue that for some gods of the Dreaming, the followers on Celandra
are like their 'hoard of diamonds': nothing they would actually need,
but something they value, and which they can show off to their peers.

> Personally I like the idea that there is something about human souls
> that is useful to Dreaming entities. Possibly the Authority of a mortal
> soul can be used to increase an entity's authority in the Dreaming? Of
> course, there's no real need to define _what's_ useful, as long as we
> consider that there's _something_ useful there.

Well, that's a possibility. But I really would like to know the what,
why and how, there. Just to see how they would effect the societies.

E.g. how then would they actually gather that Authority? At the time of 
death? Can you imagine a flock of gods gathering around a big battle 
like a flock of carrion birds? Hmmm... actually that sounds kind of 
nice; but I don't think it fits Celandra.

Any other ideas or opinions? Please feel free to contribute.

> So what is the nature of the Ladies? Do they have divine aspects? What
> are their servants and personalities like?

Divine aspects sounds a bit too much like 'god of knowledge and 
thunder'. From my viewpoint, the Ladies are like any other entity
of the Dreaming with their own ambitions and goals. Of course, to
the Ka'Shari they have to project some kind of idealized front.
But I'll leave that to Bob to decide.

juuso

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

I think perhaps rather than saying "there's nothing particularly useful
to Dreaming entities on Celandra," we should say "there's nothing
absolutely essential to Dreaming entities on Celandra." Actually, Juuso
does sort of say this in his "diamonds" analogy below. So, what do the
Dreamers want?

Well, in Cedonia, the Order of Lucia worshipped a goddess who was
concerned with Justice and Mercy and derived a vicarious satisfaction
from seeing wrongs righted, the truth revealed, and tyrants overthrown.
Needless to say, the Lucians were not popular with the Cedonian ruling
class.

In the days before the destruction of Rian a'Avaerand, some Avaeran
sorcerors came to the conclusion that in cases where a Dreaming entity
provided services in exchange for sacrifices of food and drink, it was
often because the Entity in question enjoyed the taste of the
comestibles being sacrificed.

Some Entities interfere in Celandra as a simple recreation, an escape
from boredom. Others interfere because their enemies interfere. Some
use their worshippers as experimental subjects, testing sociological
theories. Whole races, as Juuso said, have fled to Celandra from the
Dreaming as an escape from pursuit; on occasion, the pursuing Entity
may recruit worshippers to follow where they won't or can't.

I'm sure there are many more reasons.

Andrew Janssen

--- Juha Vesanto  wrote:
> RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> > I assume that gods and similar entities compete and cooperate in
> the
> > Dreaming?
> 
> Yep. But of course they also do so on Celandra, although mostly
> indirectly.
> 
> > Consider the two principles: 1) There's nothing particularly useful
> to
> > Dreaming entities on Celandra; 2) Dreaming entities regularly
> affect
> > Celandra. Taken together I think you'll see that they lead to
> situations
> > that we simply would not be able to relate to. Since so much of
> Qaiyore
> > is based on real history something needs to give.
> 
> Perhaps I failed to mention this: not all, certainly not even the
> most,
> of the entities in the Dreaming affect / are affected by Celandra.
> Quite
> the opposite.
> 
> There are only a relatively small amount of entities of the Dreaming
> which have any serious amount of interaction with Celandra. However,
> from the viewpoint of the religions / people on Celandra, those
> entities
> are all that matters.
> 
> So, actually, I don't see any big problem with this setup. After all,
> even if something is not essential, does not mean it could not be 
> important. Until a few decades ago, diamonds did not have any
> practical
> value - still they were perhaps even more valuable than today. I
> would
> argue that for some gods of the Dreaming, the followers on Celandra
> are like their 'hoard of diamonds': nothing they would actually need,
> but something they value, and which they can show off to their peers.
> 
> > Personally I like the idea that there is something about human
> souls
> > that is useful to Dreaming entities. Possibly the Authority of a
> mortal
> > soul can be used to increase an entity's authority in the Dreaming?
> Of
> > course, there's no real need to define _what's_ useful, as long as
> we
> > consider that there's _something_ useful there.
> 
> Well, that's a possibility. But I really would like to know the what,
> why and how, there. Just to see how they would effect the societies.
> 
> E.g. how then would they actually gather that Authority? At the time
> of 
> death? Can you imagine a flock of gods gathering around a big battle 
> like a flock of carrion birds? Hmmm... actually that sounds kind of 
> nice; but I don't think it fits Celandra.
> 
> Any other ideas or opinions? Please feel free to contribute.

> juuso
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.


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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

remove me from this mailing list

RulingNations@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 11/29/03 11:23:11 PM Mountain Standard Time, juuso@iki.fi 
writes:
>RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
>
>>So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the 
>>interactions performed?
>
>You know, those are interesting questions, and ones that have not been
>explored so far on this list. At least, not that I remember it.
>
>Here's my view/ideas on it; Keaton (or Bob) might see things differently:
>
>Gods and other highly magical entities live in the Dreaming. They can
>visit Celandra (the "hard place") but they will not stay there long,
>because "magic" is harder there than in the Dreaming. It's kind of like
>diving with full equipment on: you can do it, but living your whole
>life underseas is not something you would care to do. In Dreaming (and
>especially on their own territory) the "reality conforms to their
>wishes" (TM / Neil Gaiman), whereas on Celandra, the reality fights
>back.

I assume that gods and similar entities compete and cooperate in the
Dreaming?

>Some gods gather worshippers from Celandra. Why? For various reasons.
>There's nothing in particular on Celandra which the entities in Dreaming
>would need. The only unique resource on Celandra is its relative
>stability; which makes it safer for less-powerful entities and which is
>why there are occational migrations from Dreaming to Celandra. So, some
>do it for love, some for the sake of tradition, some out of duty, some
>because it gives them status, and some because people on Celandra can do
>them services.

Consider the two principles: 1) There's nothing particularly useful to
Dreaming entities on Celandra; 2) Dreaming entities regularly affect
Celandra. Taken together I think you'll see that they lead to situations
that we simply would not be able to relate to. Since so much of Qaiyore
is based on real history something needs to give.

Personally I like the idea that there is something about human souls
that is useful to Dreaming entities. Possibly the Authority of a mortal
soul can be used to increase an entity's authority in the Dreaming? Of
course, there's no real need to define _what's_ useful, as long as we
consider that there's _something_ useful there.

>Entities in Dreaming (can) provide their worshippers with
>(1) a sense of direction: it's always so nice to have someone telling 
>you what to do.
>(2) various miracles/magic. The kind of miracles performed varies quite
>a lot. Each (kind of) entity from the Dreaming seems to have a personal
>set of limitations/possibilities, and each entity can learn to overcome
>some of those limitations.
>(3) information / teaching / access to or through the Dreaming to other 
>places
>
>As already mentioned, the worshippers provide the gods (typically)
>with status and/or services. Or, in some cases, just some sort of personal
>sense of satisfaction.
>
>As to how: the god can personally enter Celandra, or work through a
>channel (like in the latest Vision), or there might be a special
>arrangement that allows the god to hear/answer prayers.
>
>Entering Celandra is always a bit hard. There are places where it is
>easier, and typically such entrance points (or portals) are used. The
>ultimate entrance point is a direct portal between Celandra and
>Dreaming: anyone/anything can go through it. In Elyria during the war
>against the Sorcerer, such a direct portal was opened - and kept open
>for several years. This was not a good thing, and eventually the portal
>was closed. Working through a channel is the same, but opening the
>channel is easier, and working through it less efficient, than being
>personally present.
>
>The Ladies have a close relationship with Ka'Shari. They probably have
>other servants/worshippers on Celandra as well, but they haven't told
>me about them (yet). I would suggest that the Ladies are the source of
>the Ka'Shari fresh water on board (e.g. providing the magic / training
>required to clean the salt from the sea water). The Ka'Shari provide
>the Ladies with services and information from Celandra. There might be
>other benefits to either side.

So what is the nature of the Ladies? Do they have divine aspects? What
are their servants and personalities like?

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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[Cel] remove me!

Andy Milburn wrote:

>remove me from this mailing list
>  
>
<....>

>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>  
>
Some people just don't get it. Ah well, I have now removed this person 
from the mailing list.

juuso

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

remove me from this mailing list

RulingNations@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 11/29/03 4:38:56 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
rafry@ozemail.com.au writes:

> Well, our 'religion' is based around our interactions with the ladies (a 
> group of 4(?) deities in the Dreaming). There's not a lot of faith 
involved, 
> more a suite of mutual agreements and interactions that have been going on 
> for a thousand years or more. The human need for ritual comes more from 
> interpersonal relationships and a very detailed 'science' of drama akin to 
> Japanese Noh plays.

So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the 
interactions performed?

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Milburn 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

> > Well, our 'religion' is based around our interactions with the ladies (a
> > group of 4(?) deities in the Dreaming). There's not a lot of faith
> involved,
> > more a suite of mutual agreements and interactions that have been going
on
> > for a thousand years or more. The human need for ritual comes more from
> > interpersonal relationships and a very detailed 'science' of drama akin
to
> > Japanese Noh plays.
>
> So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the
> interactions performed?
>
Hello, and sorry for the long delay in replying. As I mentioned before, I've
been out of town for the past week and am now playing catch-up.

Anyway, my viewpoint is that they have provided guidance and gifted the
Ka'Shari with certain magical techniques in each of the Goddesses' area of
expertise. In return, our use of those techniques presumably gives them
something they like, whether that is merely ornament or it helps them in
some way with their interaction with some other deity is probably a mystery
known only to Juuso. :) They certainly perform the occasional miracle (such
as making Bra'anath ill for a month), but that's subsidiary to their
teaching us how to be 'better' in some way.

As a player, I envision it as the goddesses' effort to teach some beings
(Ka'Shari) how to transcend the physical and have real (?)
power/effect/presence/value (?) in the Dreaming while remaining a force in
Celandra. Sort of like the Buddhist concept of Boddhisatvas, but with a much
stronger tie to this current life and a vastly reduced emphasis on
detachment. I'm not looking to have the Ka'Shari become another Eerith
(although that might be a possibility), but I haven't got a clear idea of
just what they *are* heading towards. I am hoping that our interaction with
the Dragons and the other players will eventually point out a direction.
About all I want to preserve is that they continue to provide a unique (set
of) viewpoints with which to comment on the world.

I hope that helps a bit!
  Bob


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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio


> So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the
> interactions performed?
>
For the last part of this question, 'how are the interactions performed?', I
have to admit the answer is that I haven't worked that out as yet. The form
of the interaction is probably quite important to the Ka'Shari (maybe more
so than to many peoples), but it hasn't been important for the kinds of
things I've been writing about them to date. What kinds of information are
you looking for? I can try to work out something.

  Bob

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

In a message dated 12/6/03 4:49:57 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
rafry@ozemail.com.au writes:

>>So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the
>>interactions performed?
>
>Anyway, my viewpoint is that they have provided guidance and gifted the
>Ka'Shari with certain magical techniques in each of the Goddesses' area of
>expertise.

Which are what? Feroze's areas of expertise are dimensions, discovery,
and (to a lesser degree) imagination.

>In return, our use of those techniques presumably gives them
>something they like, whether that is merely ornament or it helps them in
>some way with their interaction with some other deity is probably a mystery
>known only to Juuso. :) They certainly perform the occasional miracle (such
>as making Bra'anath ill for a month), but that's subsidiary to their
>teaching us how to be 'better' in some way.

That operates in much the same way as Exquaestio. Feroze offers
guidance, but it up to the quaestae to make things work. The first form
of guidance is in the form of the myths in the _Book of Travels_. His
second form of guidance is through the Espiri, the priests to whom he
grants magical authority. Third he may send guidance in dreams. Finally
he may directly intervene through miracles. Dreams and miracles are
extremely rare at this point.

>As a player, I envision it as the goddesses' effort to teach some beings
>(Ka'Shari) how to transcend the physical and have real (?)
>power/effect/presence/value (?) in the Dreaming while remaining a force in
>Celandra. Sort of like the Buddhist concept of Boddhisatvas, but with a much
>stronger tie to this current life and a vastly reduced emphasis on
>detachment. I'm not looking to have the Ka'Shari become another Eerith
>(although that might be a possibility), but I haven't got a clear idea of
>just what they *are* heading towards. I am hoping that our interaction with
>the Dragons and the other players will eventually point out a direction.
>About all I want to preserve is that they continue to provide a unique (set
>of) viewpoints with which to comment on the world.

Interesting. What will they make of Exquaestio's Rohain, whose first
gift is the ability to separate their souls from their bodies and travel
spiritually leaving their bodies behind (astral projection)? (See
Missionaries story in another post.)

Also, have you worked out the mechanism for your magical communication
system? I'm curious because Rohain (potentially) gain communication
abilities at third (Paladin) rank, but it will be a rare individual who
can "reach" more than ten feet. I'd like to see if there's some
potential cooperation here or if the two systems are just too different.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

> From: 
> 
> >>So what do you provide them, what do they provide you, and how are the
>>interactions performed?
>
>Anyway, my viewpoint is that they have provided guidance and gifted the
>Ka'Shari with certain magical techniques in each of the Goddesses' area of
>expertise.

-Which are what? Feroze's areas of expertise are -dimensions, discovery,
-and (to a lesser degree) imagination.

I have no idea, as yet. The Goddesses are transcendent, and I've been leaving their exact nature up to the GMs. All I know for certain is that earlier turns in the archives mention the Goddesses, and they are now having a greater in-game effect.

I would assume, given what I've gleaned of Ka'Shari history that each one has a fairly broad range of interests and that some encourage the creation of a monument-building, moral culture in which merit plays a large role in status.

I will admit, I think the whole 'god of Thunder and War' paradigm is just too cliche for my tastes. It *does* translate more readily into a game format, however. I prefer to have Gods who are mysterious and incomprehensible - but consistent in some way.

>In return, our use of those techniques presumably gives them
>something they like, whether that is merely ornament or it helps them in
>some way with their interaction with some other deity is probably a mystery
>known only to Juuso. :) They certainly perform the occasional miracle (such
>as making Bra'anath ill for a month), but that's subsidiary to their
>teaching us how to be 'better' in some way.

-That operates in much the same way as Exquaestio. Feroze offers
-guidance, but it up to the quaestae to make things work. The first form
-of guidance is in the form of the myths in the _Book of Travels_. His
-second form of guidance is through the Espiri, the priests to whom he
-grants magical authority. Third he may send -guidance in dreams. Finally
-he may directly intervene through miracles. Dreams and miracles are
-extremely rare at this point.

The parallel to the Ka'Shari would be our Traditions as a form of moral and social teaching. More personal guidance really has to be from human to human, because divine perspectives simply don't work well when applied to mortal lives. Dreams and Miracles occur more often to provide things needed by the society as a whole. That's why I took Bra'anath's illness as a /this is *important,* dummy! Do it!/ rather than a petulant act.

>As a player, I envision it as the goddesses' effort to teach some beings
>(Ka'Shari) how to transcend the physical and have real (?)
>power/effect/presence/value (?) in the Dreaming while remaining a force in
>Celandra. Sort of like the Buddhist concept of Boddhisatvas, but with a much
>stronger tie to this current life and a vastly reduced emphasis on
>detachment. I'm not looking to have the Ka'Shari become another Eerith
>(although that might be a possibility), but I haven't got a clear idea of
>just what they *are* heading towards. I am hoping that our interaction with
>the Dragons and the other players will eventually point out a direction.
>About all I want to preserve is that they continue to provide a unique (set
>of) viewpoints with which to comment on the world.

-Interesting. What will they make of Exquaestio's Rohain, whose first
-gift is the ability to separate their souls from their bodies and travel
-spiritually leaving their bodies behind (astral projection)? (See
-Missionaries story in another post.)

My first reaction: 'Handy Trick'. Depending on the individual wise one, they may find it an effective  way to gain a greater understanding of the gods, or a good way to lose empathy with common people.

-Also, have you worked out the mechanism for your magical communication
-system? I'm curious because Rohain (potentially) gain communication
-abilities at third (Paladin) rank, but it will be a rare individual who
-can "reach" more than ten feet. I'd like to see if there's some
-potential cooperation here or if the two systems are just too different.

I'm afraid not. From the original files on the Ka'Shari, the sages have a gem implanted in them which allows them to better focus power. I'd assumed they had a working /line of sight/ communications magick; this new system extends that to those you know, even if they're far away. Apparently, the power needed is still proportional to distance, but several miles' range is possible. The problem between my two systems is that the mind-set required is just so different that it is very hard to learn. After 2 years' heavy efforts to spread the knowledge, we have maybe 50-100 people who can accomplish the feat, with varying degrees of success. So far, none have even tried to reach the Ladies (which was one of my goals with it).

Now whether your Paladins can learn this different technique is an open question. I'd assume the 'feel' of my skill is completely different from theirs.

  Bob

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

In a message dated 12/8/03 2:36:14 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
rafry@ozemail.com.au writes:
>From: 
>
>I would assume, given what I've gleaned of Ka'Shari history that each
>one has a fairly broad range of interests and that some encourage the
>creation of a monument-building, moral culture in which merit plays a
>large role in status.

What sort of merit? Economic, artistic, research?

>I will admit, I think the whole 'god of Thunder and War' paradigm is
>just too cliche for my tastes. It *does* translate more readily into a
>game format, however. I prefer to have Gods who are mysterious and
>incomprehensible - but consistent in some way.

There are two topics here. First, the nature of the gods themselves. For
that I agree that 'god of Thunder and War' isn't particularly useful.
However, the other aspect is the approach that mortals take to their
relations with the gods. For that some sort of aspecting is essential.
The question of "who and how do you approach in the event of what" can
only be addressed by aspecting deities, at least in societies at the
communication level of Qaiyore.

[snip]

>The parallel to the Ka'Shari would be our Traditions as a form of moral
>and social teaching. More personal guidance really has to be from human
>to human, because divine perspectives simply don't work well when
>applied to mortal lives. Dreams and Miracles occur more often to provide
>things needed by the society as a whole. That's why I took Bra'anath's
>illness as a /this is * important,* dummy! Do it!/ rather than a
>petulant act.

Some amazing parallels between Exquaestio and Ka'Shari here, although
_The Book of Travels_ teaches that Feroze was once mortal.

It might be interesting to see if the Religious systems can be merged.
Certainly "being Exquaestio" is not dependent on the worship of Feroze.
It lies more in the threefold division between the administrative arm
(Anradan), military arm (Rohain), and mystic arm (espiri) together with
certain beliefs (which the Ka'Shari seem to share).

Hmmmm, what does it mean to be "Ka'Shari?"

>>Also, have you worked out the mechanism for your magical communication
>>system? I'm curious because Rohain (potentially) gain communication
>>abilities at third (Paladin) rank, but it will be a rare individual who
>>can "reach" more than ten feet. I'd like to see if there's some
>>potential cooperation here or if the two systems are just too different.
>
>I'm afraid not. From the original files on the Ka'Shari, the sages have
>a gem implanted in them which allows them to better focus power. I'd
>assumed they had a working /line of sight/ communications magick; this
>new system extends that to those you know, even if they're far away.
>Apparently, the power needed is still proportional to distance, but
>several miles' range is possible. The problem between my two systems is
>that the mind-set required is just so different that it is very hard to
>learn. After 2 years' heavy efforts to spread the knowledge, we have
>maybe 50-100 people who can accomplish the feat, with varying degrees of
>success. So far, none have even tried to reach the Ladies (which was one
>of my goals with it).
>
>Now whether your Paladins can learn this different technique is an open 
>question. I'd assume the 'feel' of my skill is completely different from 
>theirs.

Definitely. The power of the Rohain comes from within themselves (unlike
the Espiri who definitely feel a "channel" coming from outside
themselves). The way I've been looking at it is that the rite that makes
them Rohain turns them into a sort of supernatural creature, like a
unicorn for example. (Or, to look at it another way, the Rohain trade
their normal mortal authority to work essence magic for a different sort
of authority.) But it may be that the two forms are complementary. That
would require some in-game actions to determine though.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

>
>I would assume, given what I've gleaned of Ka'Shari history that each
>one has a fairly broad range of interests and that some encourage the
>creation of a monument-building, moral culture in which merit plays a
>large role in status.

-What sort of merit? Economic, artistic, research?

That depends on the people involved and the era. At present, it's moral
merit, more than anything: What does the person contribute to preserving the
Traditions and the people? How much of their energy is given to all and how
much is used selfishly? So: traders are valued for their trading skill,
artists for the beauty they create, etc. And, yes, some *are* more equal
than others. That's human nature, even in my quasi-utopian society.

-There are two topics here. First, the nature of the gods themselves. For
-that I agree that 'god of Thunder and War' isn't particularly useful.
-However, the other aspect is the approach that mortals take to their
-relations with the gods. For that some sort of aspecting is essential.
-The question of "who and how do you approach in the event of what" can-
-only be addressed by aspecting deities, at least in societies at the
-communication level of Qaiyore.

Umm... for that I can only take refuge in real-world cultures: Women pray to
Kali for help in childbirth, people ask Shiva (as great guru) for help with
cooking. Each is seen as an individual who you establish a relationship
with, and who helps you or not from their own perspective. I can think of
similar examples from Shinto and Native American cultures, as well.

Obviously, from my perspective, asking for the 'area of expertise' of an
individual god is not a very meaningful question. To reverse the question, I
might ask any of the Norse Gods (Aesir or Vanir) to teach me to be a better
warrior. Freya taught much of wisdom to Odin (and others know much of their
own). Most would be useful teachers for a ruler -- it depends on whom he has
a relationship with.

- What does it mean to be Ka'Shari?

 I suppose I should think about this one a bit. After all, the Ka'Shari have
been trying to teach this very thing since I started playing. I believe it
simply means to be a contributing member of the society, acting to preserve
the people and the Traditions. Preferably without intent to leave the
society. All the rest would be commentary. Trying to get people to *stop*
giving their energy to the Goddesses would probably be seen as contrary to
that society, although I'm not clear that's what the Exquaestio do.

  Bob

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

Robert Fry  wrote: -There are two topics here. First, the nature of the gods themselves. For
-that I agree that 'god of Thunder and War' isn't particularly useful.
-However, the other aspect is the approach that mortals take to their
-relations with the gods. For that some sort of aspecting is essential.
-The question of "who and how do you approach in the event of what" can-
-only be addressed by aspecting deities, at least in societies at the
-communication level of Qaiyore.

Umm... for that I can only take refuge in real-world cultures: Women pray to
Kali for help in childbirth, people ask Shiva (as great guru) for help with
cooking. Each is seen as an individual who you establish a relationship
with, and who helps you or not from their own perspective. I can think of
similar examples from Shinto and Native American cultures, as well.

Both Kali and Shiva have different aspects, according to the situation and the intention of the devotee.  Kali as one of the more powerful female deities in polytheistic Hinduism (as opposed to other internal traditions - such as monism and pantheism) has a creative and destructive aspect - as does Shiva (as the Creator and the World Destroyer).

Furthermore, the kind of devotion you are talking about in relation to Kali and Shiva depends on the region and class/caste in India (and Nepal, Bhutan).  Certainly many upper caste/class Hindus aren't worshipping an individual deity, but a personification of a monotheistic God (worshipping God "through" an avatar of sorts) - in essense, philosophical monotheism (the fourth tradition in Hinduism).

The King of Thailand, a Buddhist monarch of a Buddhist country, is also supposed to be the incarnation of Rama, if i'm not mistaken.

I suspect Thor and co. were much like the Hindu deities, but probably slightly less sophisticated and philosophical (after all, both came from the same region originally - before the Indo-European migrations), with multiple aspects and responsibities depending on the situation and devotees' need.  Thor probably became the god of war and thunder through early Christian polemics, and then the rose tinted glasses of european romanticism.

cheers,

Ibrahim Underwood

 

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

> 
> From: i 
> Date: 10/12/2003 2:37:31
> To: celandra@phoenyx.net
> Subject: Re: [Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio
> 
-Both Kali and Shiva have different aspects, -according to the situation and the
-intention of the devotee. Kali as one of the more -powerful female deities in
-polytheistic Hinduism (as opposed to other -internal traditions - such as monism
-and pantheism) has a creative and destructive -aspect - as does Shiva (as the
-Creator and the World Destroyer).

That's largely what I was trying to get at: each of those gods is far greater than the sum of their aspects; I hadn't remembered that some look upon those religions as a form of monotheistic belief, but it works: each of them contains within the aspects of all.

-I suspect Thor and co. were much like the Hindu -deities, but probably slightly
-less sophisticated and philosophical (after all, -both came from the same region
-originally - before the Indo-European migrations), -with multiple aspects and
-responsibities depending on the situation and -devotees' need. Thor probably
-became the god of war and thunder through early -Christian polemics, and then
-the rose tinted glasses of european romanticism.

Certainly, you can trace changes in attitude towards different kinds of magic and worship within the Norse beliefs. There are many parallels in the stories of Christ, some saints, and various Norse deities. Sort of an "Oh, he's just another version of x", which labels the legendary figure and helps people to ignore those areas where they are not identical -- resulting in a narrower and narrower focus for the deity.

  Bob

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

Bob,

good to see we agree... : )

One key difference between the Norse pantheon and the Hindu pantheon, is that Hindu civilisation was dominated by a highly literate and urban culture for a considerable portion of its history.

Both the Norse and Hindu religions share a strong cultural link (as does Zoroastrian religion) - even sharing names of some of the lesser deities (Zoroastrianism and Hinduism even more so).  The key point is that the Norse religion remained a religion of farmers, sailors and viking warriors, but the Hindu also embraced scholars, philosophers, etc etc.  Aside from the geographical division, the different patterns of development also took the religions in different directions.

Ibrahim

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[Cel] Ka'Shari & Exquaestio

In a message dated 12/9/03 2:25:24 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
rafry@ozemail.com.au writes:

>  Obviously, from my perspective, asking for the 'area of expertise' of an
>  individual god is not a very meaningful question. To reverse the question, 
I
>  might ask any of the Norse Gods (Aesir or Vanir) to teach me to be a better
>  warrior. Freya taught much of wisdom to Odin (and others know much of their
>  own). Most would be useful teachers for a ruler -- it depends on whom he 
has
>  a relationship with.

Well, it's easier asking for an area of expertise than for the specific 
legends and myths involved with a deity (which I know for Kali, Shiva, Freya, and 
Odin).  To put it another way, "what is the meaning of the myths about these 
deities."

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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