In a message dated 11/30/03 11:58:43 PM Mountain Standard Time, vesanto@cc.hut.fi writes: >So, actually, I don't see any big problem with this setup. After all, >even if something is not essential, does not mean it could not be >important. Until a few decades ago, diamonds did not have any practical >value - still they were perhaps even more valuable than today. I would >argue that for some gods of the Dreaming, the followers on Celandra >are like their 'hoard of diamonds': nothing they would actually need, >but something they value, and which they can show off to their peers. Let me explain my perspective and then you can correct it. Let's look at three cases from 19th century colonialism: Congo, India, and China. In the case of Congo we have a state with nothing particularly valuable about it. As a result no one cared what happened there, there was little competition, and very little was known. Belgium used it as a status symbol. The result was one of the most horrific states in history. India was more valuable, there was more competition, and thus more care and information about what happened there. In India atrocities happened, but were kept in check. Finally we have China whose resources and value was immense, competition was high, and who managed to retain nearly complete independence. Any attempt to take advantage in China was immediately met by a countering response. Thus I hope you can see that the general rule is that the less utility something has the more likely it will come to be abused. Why doesn't this apply to Celandra? >>Personally I like the idea that there is something about human souls >>that is useful to Dreaming entities. Possibly the Authority of a mortal >>soul can be used to increase an entity's authority in the Dreaming? Of >>course, there's no real need to define _what's_ useful, as long as we >>consider that there's _something_ useful there. > >Well, that's a possibility. But I really would like to know the what, >why and how, there. Just to see how they would effect the societies. Well, let's say that a worshiper generates something, call it worship energy, that a deity can use to acquire something that useful to him, call that flux. Let's say that a deity can acquire flux based on the square root of worship energy available to him. Flux can also be used to do things. For example, the lowest rank of espiri in Exquisite might require five flux to do what they do. >E.g. how then would they actually gather that Authority? At the time of >death? Can you imagine a flock of gods gathering around a big battle >like a flock of carrion birds? Hmmm... actually that sounds kind of >nice; but I don't think it fits Celandra. > >Any other ideas or opinions? Please feel free to contribute. I was rather imagining that worshipers would channel their authority to a deity as part of their worship. Individually this authority isn't worth much, but if a deity can muster the authority of several hundred it adds up. >>So what is the nature of the Ladies? Do they have divine aspects? What >>are their servants and personalities like? > >Divine aspects sounds a bit too much like 'God of knowledge and >thunder'. From my viewpoint, the Ladies are like any other entity >of the Dreaming with their own ambitions and goals. Of course, to >the Ka'Shari they have to project some kind of idealized front. >But I'll leave that to Bob to decide. Any specifics about the things they are good at and the things they are poor at? Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
RulingNations@aol.com wrote: >Thus I hope you can see that the general rule is that the less utility >something has the more likely it will come to be abused. Why doesn't >this apply to Celandra? > Sorry to say this, but your examples did not really convince me. Currently Congo is recognized as one of the riches countries in Africa in terms of natural resources, and all I can see there is abuse. A much more important difference between Congo, China and India is, I think, that China had a long history of unity behind one government, India had also a long history; but not a united one - while the tribes in Congo had no unifying culture or common history whatsoever. As for Celandra, why aren't the gods abusing it? Well, some are. But they are kept in check by competition over the resources (people). If only a single entity (or group of...) would be interested in Celandra, abuse would be easier, but this is not the case. >Well, let's say that a worshiper generates something, call it worship >energy, that a deity can use to acquire something that useful to him, >call that flux. Let's say that a deity can acquire flux based on the >square root of worship energy available to him. Flux can also be used to >do things. For example, the lowest rank of espiri in Exquisite might >require five flux to do what they do. > <...> >I was rather imagining that worshipers would channel their authority to >a deity as part of their worship. Individually this authority isn't >worth much, but if a deity can muster the authority of several hundred >it adds up. > That sounds plausible, but would this make the Celandra an *essential* source for the various entities in the Dreaming? Their primary source of food, so to speak. Another question: how does one channel their authority? Through prayers, offerings, or some kind of ceremony? Does this require some conscious decision? Can you give/divide the Authority to several gods? juuso ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
In a message dated 12/8/03 4:22:55 AM Mountain Standard Time, vesanto@cc.hut.fi writes: >RulingNations@aol.com wrote: > >>Thus I hope you can see that the general rule is that the less utility >>something has the more likely it will come to be abused. Why doesn't >>this apply to Celandra? > >Sorry to say this, but your examples did not really convince me. Well. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm trying to show you my viewpoint so you can explain where it's mistaken. >Currently Congo is recognized as one of the riches countries in Africa >in terms of natural resources, and all I can see there is abuse. But things have gotten steadily (if slowly) better since those resources were discovered. >A much more important difference between Congo, China and India is, I >think, that China had a long history of unity behind one government, >India had also a long history; but not a united one - while the tribes >in Congo had no unifying culture or common history whatsoever. First, I don't see how this applies to the situation in Qaiyore. Also, we don't know what pre-European Congo was like since its culture and over 99% of its population was destroyed by the European expansion. However, the fact that sick European explorers, incapable of acting on their own, were transported thousands of miles once agreement was reached makes accusations of disunity doubtful. >As for Celandra, why aren't the gods abusing it? Well, some are. >But they are kept in check by competition over the resources (people). >If only a single entity (or group of...) would be interested in Celandra, >abuse would be easier, but this is not the case. OK. I see. Dreaming entities have multiple competing interests in Celandra. We're just not sure what those interests are based on. Good. Now this means that its possible for a religion to serve more than one interest as long as those interests aren't contrary. Correct? >>Well, let's say that a worshiper generates something, call it worship >>energy, that a deity can use to acquire something that useful to him, >>call that flux. Let's say that a deity can acquire flux based on the >>square root of worship energy available to him. Flux can also be used to >>do things. For example, the lowest rank of espiri in Exquaestio might >>require five flux to do what they do. > ><...> > >>I was rather imagining that worshipers would channel their authority to >>a deity as part of their worship. Individually this authority isn't >>worth much, but if a deity can muster the authority of several hundred >>it adds up. > >That sounds plausible, but would this make the Celandra an *essential* >source for the various entities in the Dreaming? Their primary source of >food, so to speak. No. I see many potential sources of authority. This one just happens to be significant to the focus of the game. >Another question: how does one channel their authority? Through prayers, >offerings, or some kind of ceremony? Does this require some conscious >decision? Can you give/divide the Authority to several gods? I've made so many decisions on these topics that the choices fade out into a sort of quantum blur. It's exactly to answer these sorts of questions that I've been asking about current religious practices. Once I can see the existing boundaries I can start asking specific questions and creating specific answers. Until then there are just too many options. Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
RulingNations@aol.com wrote: >Also, we don't know what pre-European Congo was like since its culture >and over 99% of its population was destroyed by the European expansion. >However, the fact that sick European explorers, incapable of acting on >their own, were transported thousands of miles once agreement was >reached makes accusations of disunity doubtful. > > True enough. But still, Congo did not have a history of a united nation to back it up against colonialists. >Now this means that its possible for a religion to serve more than one >interest as long as those interests aren't contrary. Correct? > > Yes. >>That sounds plausible, but would this make the Celandra an *essential* >>source for the various entities in the Dreaming? Their primary source of >>food, so to speak. >> >> > >No. I see many potential sources of authority. This one just happens to >be significant to the focus of the game. > > True. >I've made so many decisions on these topics that the choices fade out >into a sort of quantum blur. It's exactly to answer these sorts of >questions that I've been asking about current religious practices. Once >I can see the existing boundaries I can start asking specific questions >and creating specific answers. Until then there are just too many >options. > > I'm afraid you have a whole (mostly) unexplored territory ahead of you. So far, apart from the Great-Evil-Incarnate -kind of entities (ie. Alatta), the Eerith (and Valerians), the gooddess of magic (Mirac...err...something), and the Order of Lucia, gods have not played a significant role in this game. And formalized religions even less. But hey, think of it as an opportunity :) You can invent your own opponents. juuso ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
