[Cel] Gods of Celandra

I'd like some opinions on the following:

There is little sense of community or common cause among the gods of
Celandra. In their own little sections of the Dreaming each is supreme
and independent, and that carries over into their dealings with each
other in the world. Each cult is highly independent, and, while
temporary alliances and distinct boundaries do exist, each cult competes
with all others trying to make itself supreme and the only cult. This
creates the situation where we have cults dedicated to single deities in
an area dominant over many small cults. Thus, we cannot speak of the
"pantheons" in the sense of related gods. The "gods of Parglug" are NOT
a related set of gods, but simply those gods worshipped individually by
the people who call themselves Parglug. 

HOWEVER, (and a big however it is), there are two factors currently in
operation to reverse this attitude. First, upon the continent of
Qaiyore, there is a strong current towards monotheism. Historically,
every god would like to have itself seen as "the one true god." However
the end of this tendency can be seen in a belief which ends up cutting
out _all_ of the gods of the Dreaming in favor of a philosophical or
impersonal unity. (And eventually identifying all the gods as demonic,
though _that_ trend has barely started.)

Second is the fact that powers from _outside_ Celandra's dreaming have
begun to appear. (Juuso identified Feroze as being such an entity.) Many
of these outsiders are both organized and hostile, and must be met with
organization if the entities are to maintain their dominance.

These two factors combine to create a situation where the deities need
to change past practices. Those who can cooperate and find common ground
will survive, while those who continue to act on their own will fall
from power.

(So, what do people think?)

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

Here's my two cents. Mind you, this is merely opinion, not gospel . . .
hrm, no joke intended.

--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> I'd like some opinions on the following:
> 
> There is little sense of community or common cause among the gods of
> Celandra. In their own little sections of the Dreaming each is
> supreme
> and independent, and that carries over into their dealings with each
> other in the world. Each cult is highly independent, and, while
> temporary alliances and distinct boundaries do exist, each cult
> competes
> with all others trying to make itself supreme and the only cult. This
> creates the situation where we have cults dedicated to single deities
> in
> an area dominant over many small cults. Thus, we cannot speak of the
> "pantheons" in the sense of related gods. The "gods of Parglug" are
> NOT
> a related set of gods, but simply those gods worshipped individually
> by
> the people who call themselves Parglug. 

I would disagree here. The cults of the various gods are, in general,
not out to become the One True Church, and the reason lies in one of
the basic Laws of the Universe. The gods and their priests use
Authority magic, not Material Essence. The Mages of Mir use both
Authority and Essence magic, but rarely if ever draw on Authority
directly from a god; they see the necessary sacrifices and requirements
for dealing with a god to be too difficult. When the Mir draw on
Authority magic, they usually do their bargaining with what we would
call spirits, angels, daemons(in the classical Greek sense), devils, or
oni, beings which are several steps down the pyramid from the gods.

In any event, a god cannot give its priests and/or worshippers the
power to affect things that the god has no authority over. Using Lucia
as an example, her priests and priestesses may create light(which may
be used to temporarily blind enemies), detect intentional falsehoods,
compel a person to speak truthfully, recall any information after a
mere glance, heal mental illnesses, and punish wrongdoers in a just
manner(often by forcing the wrongdoer to confront his or her
long-buried conscience). However, Lucians can not use their light to
burn(Lucia has no Authority over heat or fire); can not heal the body;
and possess no power over plants, animals, water, earth, air, or
anything else, for that matter. A  cult of a single god cannot
convincingly claim to be the One True Church when its patron has no
Authority over large areas of the Universe.

Why, then, one may ask, do the gods not try to take one another's
Authority, leading to consolidation, and a single religion. The answer
lies in the history of the Eerith and the Abomination Alatta. For a
priest to use his god's Authority to perform magic requires the god's
consent, which is usually contingent on the priest's adherence to
certain rules. The taking of Authority without consent, the stealing or
usurpation of Authority, never ends well for the thief. The gods are
jealous of their Authority; while each god tends to be very focused on
their areas of Authority, they will always unite against a Being who
tries to take Authority from one of their number.

How does this affect the relations between cults on Celandra?
Ironically, some of the worst strife is between cults who worship the
same Being, but under different names or with different doctrine, but
this sort of behavior is purely human. Cults whose patrons cover areas
that are in opposition to each other tend not to get along. Demerhaze
and Lucia are a classic example. Some cults are close in relationship;
the farmers who worship Arrumanthus also worship Marmdal, who can send
drought or flood if ignored, but can also send good weather if asked
nicely. Worship of one deity does not exclude the worship of all other
deities, only certain others.

Many cultures have religions with pantheons of gods, such as the
Kasovians and the Cedonians. However, the relationships between the
gods in those pantheons are not necessarily reflective of the true
state of affairs in the Dreaming.

Most of the gods recognize the fact that they need each other and that
involuntary consolidation is Not A Good Thing For Anyone.

> HOWEVER, (and a big however it is), there are two factors currently
> in
> operation to reverse this attitude. First, upon the continent of
> Qaiyore, there is a strong current towards monotheism. Historically,
> every god would like to have itself seen as "the one true god."
> However
> the end of this tendency can be seen in a belief which ends up
> cutting
> out _all_ of the gods of the Dreaming in favor of a philosophical or
> impersonal unity. (And eventually identifying all the gods as
> demonic,
> though _that_ trend has barely started.)

I disagree. Monotheism is not a natural belief system or mode of
thought for settled agricultural societies such as those found in the
MidSea. It is, however, almost universal that pastoral nomads in tribal
societies(like the Sinari) are monotheist, calling all other gods than
their tribal god as "demons". To someone from Cedonia or Torphan or
Tanimbar, the notion of a single god is bizarre. A mage from Mir who
has worked with the Dreaming would go one step farther, and call the
notion of Monotheism illogical. And the Vra'al and Eerith, who are from
the Dreaming, would probably not understand the concept, or at least
not to any depth.

Also, there's no need for a god who is a purely philosophic concept
when the real gods provide proof of their existence.

> Second is the fact that powers from _outside_ Celandra's dreaming
> have
> begun to appear. (Juuso identified Feroze as being such an entity.)
> Many
> of these outsiders are both organized and hostile, and must be met
> with
> organization if the entities are to maintain their dominance.

No argument with that.
 
> These two factors combine to create a situation where the deities
> need
> to change past practices. Those who can cooperate and find common
> ground
> will survive, while those who continue to act on their own will fall
> from power.

True, but as I said, in my opinion, the gods already know that
cooperation is a good thing. While each Being may be supreme on their
home ground in the Dreaming, the nature of Authority and the Rules that
the Creator and Shaper imposed on Celandra prevent any one Being from
becoming supreme there.

Andrew.

> (So, what do people think?)
> 
> Jefferson (Exquaestio)
> http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:

>--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>There is little sense of community or common cause among the gods of
>>Celandra. In their own little sections of the Dreaming each is supreme
>>and independent, and that carries over into their dealings with each
>>other in the world. Each cult is highly independent, and, while
>>temporary alliances and distinct boundaries do exist, each cult
>>competes with all others trying to make itself supreme and the only
>>cult. This creates the situation where we have cults dedicated to
>>single deities in an area dominant over many small cults. Thus, we
>>cannot speak of the "pantheons" in the sense of related gods. The
>>"gods of Parglug" are NOT a related set of gods, but simply those gods
>>worshipped individually by he people who call themselves Parglug. 
>
>I would disagree here. The cults of the various gods are, in general,
>not out to become the One True Church, and the reason lies in one of
>the basic Laws of the Universe. The gods and their priests use
>Authority magic, not Material Essence. The Mages of Mir use both
>Authority and Essence magic, but rarely if ever draw on Authority
>directly from a god; they see the necessary sacrifices and requirements
>for dealing with a god to be too difficult. When the Mir draw on
>Authority magic, they usually do their bargaining with what we would
>call spirits, angels, daemons(in the classical Greek sense), devils, or
>oni, beings which are several steps down the pyramid from the gods.
>
>In any event, a god cannot give its priests and/or worshippers the
>power to affect things that the god has no authority over. Using Lucia
>as an example, her priests and priestesses may create light(which may
>be used to temporarily blind enemies), detect intentional falsehoods,
>compel a person to speak truthfully, recall any information after a
>mere glance, heal mental illnesses, and punish wrongdoers in a just
>manner (often by forcing the wrongdoer to confront his or her
>long-buried conscience). However, Lucians can not use their light to
>burn (Lucia has no Authority over heat or fire); can not heal the body;
>and possess no power over plants, animals, water, earth, air, or
>anything else, for that matter. A  cult of a single god cannot
>convincingly claim to be the One True Church when its patron has no
>Authority over large areas of the Universe.

It has been established that the gods have more control over their cults
than the cults have ability to operate independently. Thus, it cannot be
argued that a cult's portrayal of a particular god is contrary to the
wishes of the god. I believe you also underestimate the, "if the only
tool you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail"
factor. Indeed, exclusive authority is _more_ likely to increase
competition because the gods involved don't see the utility of the other
authority.

>Why, then, one may ask, do the gods not try to take one another's
>Authority, leading to consolidation, and a single religion. The answer
>lies in the history of the Eerith and the Abomination Alatta. For a
>priest to use his god's Authority to perform magic requires the god's
>consent, which is usually contingent on the priest's adherence to
>certain rules. The taking of Authority without consent, the stealing or
>usurpation of Authority, never ends well for the thief. The gods are
>jealous of their Authority; while each god tends to be very focused on
>their areas of Authority, they will always unite against a Being who
>tries to take Authority from one of their number.
>
>How does this affect the relations between cults on Celandra?
>Ironically, some of the worst strife is between cults who worship the
>same Being, but under different names or with different doctrine, but
>this sort of behavior is purely human. Cults whose patrons cover areas
>that are in opposition to each other tend not to get along. Demerhaze
>and Lucia are a classic example. Some cults are close in relationship;
>the farmers who worship Arrumanthus also worship Marmdal, who can send
>drought or flood if ignored, but can also send good weather if asked
>nicely. Worship of one deity does not exclude the worship of all other
>deities, only certain others.

Unfortunately this simply doesn't work with the background. If this were
true there would be sects devoted to multiple gods. Such sects don't
exist. Gods should set up alliances, accepting temporary ebb and flow in
their cults. This also doesn't happen. What needs to be explained is why
so many cults are devoted to only a single god, and why those cults do
not seem subject to change.

I think you're also overlooking that there needs to be some contact in
order for there to be conflict. In the cases of Lucia and Demerhaze,
they simply don't have any points of contact for them to come in
conflict over. (This would change if either was a significant cult, but
this isn't the case.)

>Many cultures have religions with pantheons of gods, such as the
>Kasovians and the Cedonians. However, the relationships between the
>gods in those pantheons are not necessarily reflective of the true
>state of affairs in the Dreaming.
>
>Most of the gods recognize the fact that they need each other and that
>involuntary consolidation is Not A Good Thing For Anyone.

Consolidation, no, but there are many indications that gods can be
destroyed.

>>HOWEVER, (and a big however it is), there are two factors currently in
>>operation to reverse this attitude. First, upon the continent of
>>Qaiyore, there is a strong current towards monotheism. Historically,
>>every god would like to have itself seen as "the one true god."
>>However the end of this tendency can be seen in a belief which ends up
>>cutting out _all_ of the gods of the Dreaming in favor of a
>>philosophical or impersonal unity. (And eventually identifying all the
>>gods as demonic, though _that_ trend has barely started.)
>
>I disagree. Monotheism is not a natural belief system or mode of
>thought for settled agricultural societies such as those found in the
>MidSea. It is, however, almost universal that pastoral nomads in tribal
>societies (like the Sinari) are monotheist, calling all other gods than
>their tribal god as "demons". To someone from Cedonia or Torphan or
>Tanimbar, the notion of a single god is bizarre. A mage from Mir who
>has worked with the Dreaming would go one step farther, and call the
>notion of Monotheism illogical. And the Vra'al and Eerith, who are from
>the Dreaming, would probably not understand the concept, or at least
>not to any depth.

This doesn't match the facts. Videssia has stumbled along with a
monotheistic religion for some time. A monotheistic religion is being
accepted in Cedonia. The Eerith are naturally monotheistically oriented.
THOSE are facts.

>Also, there's no need for a god who is a purely philosophic concept
>when the real gods provide proof of their existence.

Unfortunately monotheistic religions do exist. Those Monotheistic
religions don't seem to have the support of "real" gods. Thus the above
statement is either false to fact or irrelevant.

>>Second is the fact that powers from _outside_ Celandra's dreaming have
>>begun to appear. (Juuso identified Feroze as being such an entity.)
>>Many of these outsiders are both organized and hostile, and must be
>>met with organization if the entities are to maintain their dominance.
>
>No argument with that.

------

Note that I have no particular interest in the scenario I presented. It
was made in the interest of explaining the following:

1) Monotheistic cults can survive and even thrive.

2) Almost all cults are devoted to individual gods. (The Ka'Shari are
the only known exception, and we know so little about their religion
that they may not be an exception after all).

3) In areas predominantly devoted to a particular religion there are
numerous small and secretive cults EXCEPT where the main religion is
monotheistic.

4) Even within a culture, the cults of the individual gods are in
competition with each other.

5) There are no signs of lesser power gods cooperating to match the
power of greater gods. (Again, with the possible exception of the
Ka'Shari.)

6) The gods have more control over their cults than the cults have
ability to operate independently.

If anyone can provide another scenario to explain the above facts I'd
like to see it.

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

>>And the Vra'al and Eerith, who are from
> >the Dreaming, would probably not understand the concept, or at least
> >not to any depth.
>
> This doesn't match the facts. Videssia has stumbled along with a
> monotheistic religion for some time. A monotheistic religion is being
> accepted in Cedonia. The Eerith are naturally monotheistically oriented.
> THOSE are facts.
>

Yep, the Eerith are monotheistic.  The currently developing belief system of
the Eerith post-Valor is intensely monotheistic (including messianic trinity
via the Albous/Valor developements).  However, do not underestimate the fact
that monotheism does not exclude other gods/angels/demons/giants/titans/etc.
and can therefore appear as poly- or pantheism to the uninitiated.

mk

----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

Okay.  I am currently trying to work on the detail of
the Mirish relgion.  So when I get thoughs I will let
you know.  It will proble be a pantheon unless I get
hit with some good insperation in another direction.

I do have to comment that the Gods of the Dreaming
have united before to fight of intruders.  In the
Sinari War.

Jason

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

--- "M. Keaton, Archangel Press"  wrote:
> >>And the Vra'al and Eerith, who are from
> > >the Dreaming, would probably not understand the concept, or at
> least
> > >not to any depth.
> >
> > This doesn't match the facts. Videssia has stumbled along with a
> > monotheistic religion for some time. A monotheistic religion is
> being
> > accepted in Cedonia. The Eerith are naturally monotheistically
> oriented.
> > THOSE are facts.
> >
> 
> Yep, the Eerith are monotheistic.  The currently developing belief
> system of
> the Eerith post-Valor is intensely monotheistic (including messianic
> trinity
> via the Albous/Valor developements).  However, do not underestimate
> the fact
> that monotheism does not exclude other
> gods/angels/demons/giants/titans/etc.
> and can therefore appear as poly- or pantheism to the uninitiated.

So, are you saying that the Eerith are monotheists in the sense that
they only worship one god, but they are not Monotheists in the sense of
saying, "Our god is the only god"?

Andrew Janssen
> mk
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

Close.  The Eerith would say that your definition of what constituted a god
was misplaced.  There is but one God (the Creator) but there are many things
around powerful enough to claim to be gods and to be worshipped by the less
illuminated.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Janssen" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Cel] Gods of Celandra


> --- "M. Keaton, Archangel Press"  wrote:
> > >>And the Vra'al and Eerith, who are from
> > > >the Dreaming, would probably not understand the concept, or at
> > least
> > > >not to any depth.
> > >
> > > This doesn't match the facts. Videssia has stumbled along with a
> > > monotheistic religion for some time. A monotheistic religion is
> > being
> > > accepted in Cedonia. The Eerith are naturally monotheistically
> > oriented.
> > > THOSE are facts.
> > >
> >
> > Yep, the Eerith are monotheistic.  The currently developing belief
> > system of
> > the Eerith post-Valor is intensely monotheistic (including messianic
> > trinity
> > via the Albous/Valor developements).  However, do not underestimate
> > the fact
> > that monotheism does not exclude other
> > gods/angels/demons/giants/titans/etc.
> > and can therefore appear as poly- or pantheism to the uninitiated.
>
> So, are you saying that the Eerith are monotheists in the sense that
> they only worship one god, but they are not Monotheists in the sense of
> saying, "Our god is the only god"?
>
> Andrew Janssen
> > mk
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

In a message dated 3/5/04 10:36:50 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
>--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
>>In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
>>andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
>
>>I think you're also overlooking that there needs to be some contact in
>>order for there to be conflict. In the cases of Lucia and Demerhaze,
>>they simply don't have any points of contact for them to come in
>>conflict over. (This would change if either was a significant cult,
>>but this isn't the case.)
>
>No, there is a point of contact, and calling them insignificant isn't
>very accurate.

[Sigh] I never said they were insignificant. The Libertarian and Green
parties aren't insignificant, but neither are they significant in
American politics.

>Both Lucia and Demerhaze have, as part of their "portfolios," an
>interest in punishing wrongdoers.

Lucia is interested in punishing wrongdoers (justice). Demerhaze is
interested in helping victims (vengeance). A small difference that
nevertheless puts them worlds apart.

>They come into conflict on methods and means. As far as significance
>goes, the Order of Lucia has always been a major force in Cedonia since
>the end of the old empire, but persecution by Cedonia's ruling class
>has driven the Order to take a low profile on more than one occasion.
>
>>This doesn't match the facts. Videssia has stumbled along with a
>>monotheistic religion for some time. A monotheistic religion is being
>>accepted in Cedonia. The Eerith are naturally monotheistically
>>oriented. THOSE are facts.
>
>Not all of them. You're confusing Cedonia with Kaeir. IIRC, one of
>Kaeir's recent actions had them coming into contact with a monotheistic
>culture in the far north of the continent, and bringing the religion
>back with them. Cedonia has always been polytheist; when the Empress
>Yzara was persecuting the Order of Lucia, she did so not because she
>did not believe in Lucia's divinity, but because she saw the Order's
>secular agenda as a threat to her power.

Yes, I typed Cedonia when I should have typed Kaeir.

>As far as Videssia goes, based on their past history, "stumbled" is the
>operative word in that sentence.
>
>Eerithian monotheism may be a matter of perspective--coming from the
>Dreaming originally as they do, labelling anything other than the
>Creator or Shaper as God would probably seem silly.
>
>>------
>>
>>Note that I have no particular interest in the scenario I presented.
>>It was made in the interest of explaining the following:
>>
>>1) Monotheistic cults can survive and even thrive.
>
>Do they? Videssia is, IIRC, in chaos (could be wrong), and the Sinari
>got clobbered.

A country in chaos could not hold off Parglug. "Country in Chaos" is a
much more accurate description of the Free Cities, which is
polytheistic. There's also the matter of the monotheistic expansion in
Kaeir.

>When empirical evidence of multiple gods is obtainable, how can
>monotheism be defensible?

That is the question, isn't it.

>>2) Almost all cults are devoted to individual gods. (The Ka'Shari are
>>the only known exception, and we know so little about their religion
>>that they may not be an exception after all).
>>
>>3) In areas predominantly devoted to a particular religion there are
>>numerous small and secretive cults EXCEPT where the main religion is
>>monotheistic.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you expand on this point?

Parglug is full of individual cults under the aegis of Marmdal. The Free
Cities is full of individual cults under the aegis of Lord Sea. Videssia
does not seem to have this problem.

>>4) Even within a culture, the cults of the individual gods are in
>>competition with each other.
>
>I don't think this is true.

Then explain the following:

"The Church of Parglug (and their god Marmadal) is usually rather
tolerant of other religions, but right now they have problems with
(scholarly) Larasian religions, which they want to fend off. Still, it
is not wise to turn a potential ally away. The Exquaestio is welcomed to
the land, as long as they stay away from the path of Marmadal."

>>5) There are no signs of lesser power gods cooperating to match the
>>power of greater gods. (Again, with the possible exception of the
>>Ka'Shari.)
>
>You mean "matching" as in "ganging up on"?

I have no idea what you mean by this.

>>6) The gods have more control over their cults than the cults have
>>ability to operate independently.
>
>Again, I don't think this is necessarily true. It may depend on how
>"hands on" the god is. 

Produce one cult that is factioned where one faction is receiving divine
aide while the other is not. (Or something similar.) Also, //When
empirical evidence of divine favor is obtainable, how can a cult without
that favor survive?//

>>If anyone can provide another scenario to explain the above facts I'd
>>like to see it.

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

> >Do they? Videssia is, IIRC, in chaos (could be
> wrong), and the Sinari
> >got clobbered.
> 
> A country in chaos could not hold off Parglug.
> "Country in Chaos" is a
> much more accurate description of the Free Cities,
> which is
> polytheistic. There's also the matter of the
> monotheistic expansion in
> Kaeir.

Videssia is in Chaos.  Videssia held off the Pralug,
but then was hit by a plauge thanks to the Amo'Tral. 
The Pralug bloackade kept the Plauge in Videssia.  The
plauge took about ten years to die out, and the
goverment was completely gone by that point in time. 
I did not get the chance to change the videssian page
before I left.  So Videssia is a bunch of waring city
states.  The Goverment completly collapsed several
turns before I left.  So Videssia may have been
haveing several groups trying to unit it under there
rule but as when I had left Videssia was a bunch of
waring city states.

Sorry Juha I should have left more information on the
page.

One comment.  I have not been following this
conversation a lot, but I have to make a coment about
the amont of Monothistical/ Polythistical countires. 
Most countires had not even developed there religions.
 So they might have mentioned one or two gods so it
would appare to be monthistical, but I can tell you
from the time I was serving as GM most socities in
Qaiyore were Polythistical or nature worship.

The reason that religion was not heavely deffinded was
because it was just something that was sort of
avoided.  It delt to much with the dreaming and stuff
beyond this world and most people just wanted to avoid
it.  I did try to get people to tell me about their
socities but I was lucky at times to get detailed
actions from some people.

Hope that helps any.

Jason

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/5/04 10:36:50 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
> andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
> >--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> >>In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
> >>andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
> >



> >When empirical evidence of multiple gods is obtainable, how can
> >monotheism be defensible?
> 
> That is the question, isn't it.
> 
> >>2) Almost all cults are devoted to individual gods. (The Ka'Shari
> are
> >>the only known exception, and we know so little about their
> religion
> >>that they may not be an exception after all).
> >>
> >>3) In areas predominantly devoted to a particular religion there
> are
> >>numerous small and secretive cults EXCEPT where the main religion
> is
> >>monotheistic.
> >
> >I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you expand on this point?
> 
> Parglug is full of individual cults under the aegis of Marmdal. The
> Free
> Cities is full of individual cults under the aegis of Lord Sea.
> Videssia
> does not seem to have this problem.

Okay, I think I understand the point now.

> >>4) Even within a culture, the cults of the individual gods are in
> >>competition with each other.
> >
> >I don't think this is true.
> 
> Then explain the following:
> 
> "The Church of Parglug (and their god Marmadal) is usually rather
> tolerant of other religions, but right now they have problems with
> (scholarly) Larasian religions, which they want to fend off. Still,
> it
> is not wise to turn a potential ally away. The Exquaestio is welcomed
> to
> the land, as long as they stay away from the path of Marmadal."

Ok, point conceded. I phrased my comment badly; I should have said that
I didn't think it was *universally* true. Makes a difference.
 
> >>5) There are no signs of lesser power gods cooperating to match the
> >>power of greater gods. (Again, with the possible exception of the
> >>Ka'Shari.)
> >
> >You mean "matching" as in "ganging up on"?
> 
> I have no idea what you mean by this.

I meant lesser gods(perhaps we should simply say "beings"?) working
together to combine their power and displace a greater being.
 
> >>6) The gods have more control over their cults than the cults have
> >>ability to operate independently.
> >
> >Again, I don't think this is necessarily true. It may depend on how
> >"hands on" the god is. 
> 
> Produce one cult that is factioned where one faction is receiving
> divine
> aide while the other is not. (Or something similar.) Also, //When
> empirical evidence of divine favor is obtainable, how can a cult
> without
> that favor survive?//

Um, that's not quite what I meant. What I *meant* to say, was that
perhaps some Beings, across the board, are less involved than others,
in the sense that while they provide their clerics with the power to do
magic, they don't get involved in the day-to-day operations of the
religion, provided that the cult's behavior stays within certain broad
bounds. In contrast, some Beings may be micromanagers by temperment.

> >>If anyone can provide another scenario to explain the above facts
> I'd
> >>like to see it.
> 
> Jefferson (Exquaestio)
> http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

In a message dated 3/6/04 8:31:56 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
>--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
>>In a message dated 3/5/04 10:36:50 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
>>andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
>>>--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
>>>>In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
>>>>andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
>>
>>>>4) Even within a culture, the cults of the individual gods are in
>>>>competition with each other.
>>>
>>>I don't think this is true.
>>
>>Then explain the following:
>>
>>"The Church of Parglug (and their god Marmadal) is usually rather
>>tolerant of other religions, but right now they have problems with
>>(scholarly) Larasian religions, which they want to fend off. Still, it
>>is not wise to turn a potential ally away. The Exquaestio is welcomed
>>to the land, as long as they stay away from the path of Marmadal."
>
>OK, point conceded. I phrased my comment badly; I should have said that
>I didn't think it was *universally* true. Makes a difference.

I don't care which is more common. I'm just trying to come up with a
rational that makes sense of the history. However it works, the
situation needs to be explained and the areas where the different
circumstances exist need to be defined.

However, we should notice that we are getting in to the "society" of the
gods at this point. While there will be some variation, there will also
be a baseline of common practice, and that common practice will affect
religions throughout Celandra.

>>>>5) There are no signs of lesser power gods cooperating to match the
>>>>power of greater gods. (Again, with the possible exception of the
>>>>Ka'Shari.)
>>>
>>>You mean "matching" as in "ganging up on"?
>>
>>I have no idea what you mean by this.
>
>I meant lesser gods (perhaps we should simply say "beings"?) working
>together to combine their power and displace a greater being.

???

OK. Lucia has authority over Light, Truth, and Mental Health (generally
speaking). Suppose three lesser dreaming entities with _individal_
authority over Light, Truth, and Mind loaned their authority to each
other in order to match Lucia. Such authority would not be strong enough
to displace Lucia, but it would likely make it not worth the effort for
Lucia to displace them. As each entity is still an individual they would
be worshiped as three, not as one. (Though I realize the Eerith would
disagree.)

For that matter, why doesn't Lucia make an alliance with a lesser
dreaming entity with authority over health? That way she could offer
healing abilities to her servants.

Why don't, say, 20 or 50 lesser dreaming entities cooperate to produce a
cult that covers nearly the full range of authority? Such a cult would
likely be more flexible than one devoted to a single entity.

>>>>6) The gods have more control over their cults than the cults have
>>>>ability to operate independently.
>>>
>>>Again, I don't think this is necessarily true. It may depend on how
>>>"hands on" the god is. 
>>
>>Produce one cult that is factioned where one faction is receiving
>>divine aide while the other is not. (Or something similar.) Also,
>>//When empirical evidence of divine favor is obtainable, how can a
>>cult without that favor survive?//
>
>Um, that's not quite what I meant. What I *meant* to say, was that
>perhaps some Beings, across the board, are less involved than others,
>in the sense that while they provide their clerics with the power to do
>magic, they don't get involved in the day-to-day operations of the
>religion, provided that the cult's behavior stays within certain broad
>bounds. In contrast, some Beings may be micromanagers by temperament.

But that doesn't have anything to do with premise 6.

>>>>If anyone can provide another scenario to explain the above facts
>>>>I'd like to see it.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/6/04 8:31:56 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
> andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
> >--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> >>In a message dated 3/5/04 10:36:50 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
> >>andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
> >>>--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
> >>>>andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:



> >OK, point conceded. I phrased my comment badly; I should have said
> that
> >I didn't think it was *universally* true. Makes a difference.
> 
> I don't care which is more common. I'm just trying to come up with a
> rational that makes sense of the history. However it works, the
> situation needs to be explained and the areas where the different
> circumstances exist need to be defined.

On what level do you want them defined, in-game or out-of-game? It's
really easy to lose sight of the distinction between what we as players
know, and what our societies know. Given that you're playing a
religion, I can see why getting this whole area nailed down is
necessary, but how much of what we hammer out here would be known on
Celandra?

> However, we should notice that we are getting in to the "society" of
> the
> gods at this point. While there will be some variation, there will
> also
> be a baseline of common practice, and that common practice will
> affect
> religions throughout Celandra.
> 
> >>>>5) There are no signs of lesser power gods cooperating to match
> the
> >>>>power of greater gods. (Again, with the possible exception of the
> >>>>Ka'Shari.)
> >>>
> >>>You mean "matching" as in "ganging up on"?
> >>
> >>I have no idea what you mean by this.
> >
> >I meant lesser gods (perhaps we should simply say "beings"?) working
> >together to combine their power and displace a greater being.
> 
> ???
> 
> OK. Lucia has authority over Light, Truth, and Mental Health
> (generally
> speaking). Suppose three lesser dreaming entities with _individal_
> authority over Light, Truth, and Mind loaned their authority to each
> other in order to match Lucia. Such authority would not be strong
> enough
> to displace Lucia, but it would likely make it not worth the effort
> for
> Lucia to displace them. As each entity is still an individual they
> would
> be worshiped as three, not as one. (Though I realize the Eerith would
> disagree.)
> 
> For that matter, why doesn't Lucia make an alliance with a lesser
> dreaming entity with authority over health? That way she could offer
> healing abilities to her servants.
> 
> Why don't, say, 20 or 50 lesser dreaming entities cooperate to
> produce a
> cult that covers nearly the full range of authority? Such a cult
> would
> likely be more flexible than one devoted to a single entity.

My provisional explanation was, "Because the Creator said so." I
realize that this is neither a helpful nor a persuasive statement. :) 

Seriously, though, I've always felt that there are three differences
between "lesser" and "greater" Dreaming Beings. 

First, given that all Authority magic ultimately comes from the
Creator/Shaper and is delegated downward, the fewer steps away from the
source of Authority a Being is, the greater its power. 

Second, "lesser" Beings are more restricted in the uses to which they
can put their power, in some cases being limited in the locations in
which they can exercise their Authority(like dryads, tied to one
particular tree or forest). 

Third, as Authority passes down the chain, it dilutes. "Lesser" Beings
are limited in the magnitude of effects they can produce, partly due to
their distance from the Source of Authority.

In this conception, the "Lesser" Beings are actually more complex than
the "Greater" Beings. The closer a Being is to the Creator, the more
elemental in nature it becomes, and the more difficult for humans to
understand. An example might be the God(dess) of the Sea: elemental,
remote, and unpredictable; not so much worshipped as placated or
appeased.

One other thing needs to be made clear for this explanation. IIRC, on
the Celandra webpages dealing with magic, the point is brought up that
all things everywhere, have a certain amount of Authority passed down
and through them automatically. Authority Magic is what humans (or
Beings) use when they want to do things which their natural Authority
does not entitle them to.

> >>>>6) The gods have more control over their cults than the cults
> have
> >>>>ability to operate independently.
> >>>
> >>>Again, I don't think this is necessarily true. It may depend on
> how
> >>>"hands on" the god is. 
> >>
> >>Produce one cult that is factioned where one faction is receiving
> >>divine aide while the other is not. (Or something similar.) Also,
> >>//When empirical evidence of divine favor is obtainable, how can a
> >>cult without that favor survive?//
> >
> >Um, that's not quite what I meant. What I *meant* to say, was that
> >perhaps some Beings, across the board, are less involved than
> others,
> >in the sense that while they provide their clerics with the power to
> do
> >magic, they don't get involved in the day-to-day operations of the
> >religion, provided that the cult's behavior stays within certain
> broad
> >bounds. In contrast, some Beings may be micromanagers by
> temperament.
> 
> But that doesn't have anything to do with premise 6.

I think we may be having a "same words, different definitions" problem
here: you're using words like "control" and "operate" one way, but I'm
not understanding those words with the meaning you intended. I
interpreted premise 6 to mean:

"The gods/Beings have more control over day-to-day cult/religion
operations than the priests/cultists have the ability to operate
without regular divine input."

It *seems* to me now, that you might have meant something more along
the lines of: 

"A cult needs a sponsoring Being in order to be effective and thrive."

Is that closer to what you meant? If it is, I agree. If it isn't, then
what does premise 6 mean?

Andrew


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

-----Original Message-----
From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] On Behalf Of
Andrew Janssen
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 11:31 AM
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Subject: Re: [Cel] Gods of Celandra

--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/5/04 10:36:50 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
> andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
> >--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> >>In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
> >>andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
> >



> >When empirical evidence of multiple gods is obtainable, how can
> >monotheism be defensible?
> 
> That is the question, isn't it.

Well, it can be, and it doesn't have to be.  For many monotheistically
inclined, such as the Kaeirean Senator, Lord Jafaarsan, belief in some
sort of ultimate deity is just that - belief in an ultimate being above
and beyond existence and time.  The various gods, in this conception of
existence, exist within time and are therefore not infinite.  Such
monotheism doesn't deny the existence of gods and powerful beings, it
just insists they are created beings (as opposed to the "uncreated").

Secondly, religion in all its forms is influenced by and influences
politics.  For example, Jafaarsan has adopted the Shanari religion
(well, most of it), as part of his broader political agenda for the
Kaeirean Republic.

Ibrahim Underwood

----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

[Cel] Gods of Celandra

--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/1/04 1:09:36 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
> andrewdj54701@yahoo.com writes:
> 
> >--- RulingNations@aol.com wrote:



> I think you're also overlooking that there needs to be some contact
> in
> order for there to be conflict. In the cases of Lucia and Demerhaze,
> they simply don't have any points of contact for them to come in
> conflict over. (This would change if either was a significant cult,
> but
> this isn't the case.)

No, there is a point of contact, and calling them insignificant isn't
very accurate. Both Lucia and Demerhaze have, as part of their
"portfolios", an interest in punishing wrongdoers. They come into
conflict on methods and means. As far as significance goes, the Order
of Lucia has always been a major force in Cedonia since the end of the
old empire, but persecution by Cedonia's ruling class has driven the
Order to take a low profile on more than one occasion.
 
> >Many cultures have religions with pantheons of gods, such as the
> >Kasovians and the Cedonians. However, the relationships between the
> >gods in those pantheons are not necessarily reflective of the true
> >state of affairs in the Dreaming.
> >
> >Most of the gods recognize the fact that they need each other and
> that
> >involuntary consolidation is Not A Good Thing For Anyone.
> 
> Consolidation, no, but there are many indications that gods can be
> destroyed.
> 
> >>HOWEVER, (and a big however it is), there are two factors currently
> in
> >>operation to reverse this attitude. First, upon the continent of
> >>Qaiyore, there is a strong current towards monotheism.
> Historically,
> >>every god would like to have itself seen as "the one true god."
> >>However the end of this tendency can be seen in a belief which ends
> up
> >>cutting out _all_ of the gods of the Dreaming in favor of a
> >>philosophical or impersonal unity. (And eventually identifying all
> the
> >>gods as demonic, though _that_ trend has barely started.)
> >
> >I disagree. Monotheism is not a natural belief system or mode of
> >thought for settled agricultural societies such as those found in
> the
> >MidSea. It is, however, almost universal that pastoral nomads in
> tribal
> >societies (like the Sinari) are monotheist, calling all other gods
> than
> >their tribal god as "demons". To someone from Cedonia or Torphan or
> >Tanimbar, the notion of a single god is bizarre. A mage from Mir who
> >has worked with the Dreaming would go one step farther, and call the
> >notion of Monotheism illogical. And the Vra'al and Eerith, who are
> from
> >the Dreaming, would probably not understand the concept, or at least
> >not to any depth.
> 
> This doesn't match the facts. Videssia has stumbled along with a
> monotheistic religion for some time. A monotheistic religion is being
> accepted in Cedonia. The Eerith are naturally monotheistically
> oriented.
> THOSE are facts.

Not all of them. You're confusing Cedonia with Kaeir. IIRC, one of
Kaeir's recent actions had them coming into contact with a monotheistic
culture in the far north of the continent, and bringing the religion
back with them. Cedonia has always been polytheist; when the Empress
Yzara was persecuting the Order of Lucia, she did so not because she
did not believe in Lucia's divinity, but because she saw the Order's
secular agenda as a threat to her power.

As far as Videssia goes, based on their past history, "stumbled" is the
operative word in that sentence.

Eerithian monotheism may be a matter of perspective--coming from the
Dreaming originally as they do, labelling anything other than the
Creator or Shaper as God would probably seem silly.
> >Also, there's no need for a god who is a purely philosophic concept
> >when the real gods provide proof of their existence.
> 
> Unfortunately monotheistic religions do exist. Those Monotheistic
> religions don't seem to have the support of "real" gods. Thus the
> above
> statement is either false to fact or irrelevant.
> 
> >>Second is the fact that powers from _outside_ Celandra's dreaming
> have
> >>begun to appear. (Juuso identified Feroze as being such an entity.)
> >>Many of these outsiders are both organized and hostile, and must be
> >>met with organization if the entities are to maintain their
> dominance.
> >
> >No argument with that.
> 
> ------
> 
> Note that I have no particular interest in the scenario I presented.
> It
> was made in the interest of explaining the following:
> 
> 1) Monotheistic cults can survive and even thrive.

Do they? Videssia is, IIRC, in chaos(could be wrong), and the Sinari
got clobbered. When empirical evidence of multiple gods is obtainable,
how can monotheism be defensible?
 
> 2) Almost all cults are devoted to individual gods. (The Ka'Shari are
> the only known exception, and we know so little about their religion
> that they may not be an exception after all).
> 
> 3) In areas predominantly devoted to a particular religion there are
> numerous small and secretive cults EXCEPT where the main religion is
> monotheistic.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you expand on this point?

> 4) Even within a culture, the cults of the individual gods are in
> competition with each other.

I don't think this is true.
 
> 5) There are no signs of lesser power gods cooperating to match the
> power of greater gods. (Again, with the possible exception of the
> Ka'Shari.)

You mean "matching" as in "ganging up on"?
 
> 6) The gods have more control over their cults than the cults have
> ability to operate independently.

Again, I don't think this is necessarily true. It may depend on how
"hands on" the god is. 

> If anyone can provide another scenario to explain the above facts I'd
> like to see it.
> 
> Jefferson (Exquaestio)
> http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.