[Cel] [World] Some more thoughts on religion & art in, Cedonia, past & present

Andrew Janssen wrote:

 >> Here are a few things that occurred to me after my last post. Please
 >> note that they are in no particular order and may need a bit of polish
 >> to make complete sense. These are not official, necessarily, I'm
 >> throwing them out there for opinion & comment. Thankyouverramuch.


Very nice stuff! ThankYouverymuch.

One comment, though. The descriptions handle the gods as if the gods
themselves had really no choice in the matter - ie. as real-world gods.
Now, this is an interesting point, because if accepted as such, it would
imply that the gods in Celandra (or in Cedonia anyway) are flexible:
they accept and assume the roles that their followers put on them -
well, within certain limits, anyway.

Since I have been thinking of the gods as independently active entities
- as opposed to mental archtypes formed by the collective consciousness
of the people as a whole - this again implies that the arrangement
between the gods (or some gods, anyway) and their
religions/followers/worshippers is based more on negotiation or
adaptation than on the singular wishes of the god originally. You could
even think of the gods as products in an open market: the product that
best answers the needs and wishes of the consumers, and has the best
ROI, and the best brand/marketing, wins the most followers. In that kind
of market, real world -kind religions could very well be the result.
With smaller market shares, very different kinds of gods could exist:
for example the gods that have their own agenda, and follow it with
no flexibility at all. But if the agenda does not fit well with what the
market wants, the god will remain a niche product.

Now, what comes to the Cedonian pantheon, I assume that really
existing entities stand behind each of the gods. In other words, the
gods really exist. The entities might have had slightly different
agendas originally, but with the formation of the State Church, they
have had to adapt. Probably each of them has a realm of their
own in the dreaming. The Realm of Coron, for example, might be a
misty garden, where angel-like beings carefully tend to the souls
of the dead and unborn. The priests / followers of Coron have had
short glimpses of this Realm (and of course it is good practice to
keep the specifics slightly mysterious, especially if Coron does
not *actually* handle souls, except for the sake of appearances...
But you never know. The matter of soul/death/rebirth has not been
defined in this game at all yet.).

So, what I'm still missing from the descriptions is how the gods
actually interact with their followers. And the politics among
the gods themselves. I would assume, for example, that the Cedonian
pantheon have formed a league of their own against other gods,
because they are all part of the same brand / product family.
In the Dreaming, the entities wage war on each other, and it could
be even possible that one or two of the original gods in the Pantheon
has been destroyed, and some other entity has been recruited to
take its place. An interesting question is how would this have reflected
back on the god's worshippers?

juuso

PS. Andrew: you have accumulated quite a bit of Fudge Points.
Suggestion: how about using them to finish off the alloy action?

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[Cel] [World] Some more thoughts on religion & art in, Cedonia, past & present

--- Juha Vesanto  wrote:
> Andrew Janssen wrote:
> 
>  >> Here are a few things that occurred to me after my last post.
> Please
>  >> note that they are in no particular order and may need a bit of
> polish
>  >> to make complete sense. These are not official, necessarily, I'm
>  >> throwing them out there for opinion & comment. Thankyouverramuch.
> 
> 
> Very nice stuff! ThankYouverymuch.



> You
> could
> even think of the gods as products in an open market: the product
> that
> best answers the needs and wishes of the consumers, and has the best
> ROI, and the best brand/marketing, wins the most followers. In that
> kind
> of market, real world -kind religions could very well be the result.
> With smaller market shares, very different kinds of gods could exist:
> for example the gods that have their own agenda, and follow it with
> no flexibility at all. But if the agenda does not fit well with what
> the
> market wants, the god will remain a niche product.

It occurs to me that that kind of flexibility, the ability to adapt to
the marketplace, if you will, might be what seperates Gods from Daemons
in Celandra. As you say, a Dreaming Being that can't adjust to meet the
changing needs and desires of its worshipers over the long term isn't
going to grab much market share.

> Now, what comes to the Cedonian pantheon, I assume that really
> existing entities stand behind each of the gods. In other words, the
> gods really exist. The entities might have had slightly different
> agendas originally, but with the formation of the State Church, they
> have had to adapt. Probably each of them has a realm of their
> own in the dreaming. The Realm of Coron, for example, might be a
> misty garden, where angel-like beings carefully tend to the souls
> of the dead and unborn. The priests / followers of Coron have had
> short glimpses of this Realm (and of course it is good practice to
> keep the specifics slightly mysterious, especially if Coron does
> not *actually* handle souls, except for the sake of appearances...
> But you never know. The matter of soul/death/rebirth has not been
> defined in this game at all yet.).

Well, the Cedonians envision Coron's realm more as a sort of divine
jeweler's workshop, with souls as gems, but most Coronite priests, when
pressed, will admit that that is only a metaphor for something outside
human comprehension.

> So, what I'm still missing from the descriptions is how the gods
> actually interact with their followers. And the politics among
> the gods themselves. I would assume, for example, that the Cedonian
> pantheon have formed a league of their own against other gods,
> because they are all part of the same brand / product family.
> In the Dreaming, the entities wage war on each other, and it could
> be even possible that one or two of the original gods in the Pantheon
> has been destroyed, and some other entity has been recruited to
> take its place. An interesting question is how would this have
> reflected
> back on the god's worshippers?

>From the point of view of the gods in the Cedonians' state-created
pantheon, the main advantage of leaguing together was being having
someone to watch their backs. The other benefit was access to more
converts overall. The Cedonian State Church spread with the Empire,
carrying the worship of the members of the Cedonian Pantheon around the
MidSea region. When the Empire collapsed after the invasion of the Ice
Demons, many provincial temples lost contact with the central
authorities and by necessity, struck out on their own. This has led to
differences in forms of worship, but even outside Cedonia, the gods who
belong to the pantheon work together.

Note that Mir's patron Goddess, Miracrasada(sp?) isn't included in
Cedonia's pantheon. The fact of her existence is recognized by the
Cedonian State Church, but Miracrasada doesn't seem to take calls from
non-Mirs.

> juuso
> 
> PS. Andrew: you have accumulated quite a bit of Fudge Points.
> Suggestion: how about using them to finish off the alloy action?

I think I'll end up using 4 Fudge Points to finish that action off, and
save the rest for a rainy day.

Andrew

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[Cel] [World] Some more thoughts on religion & art in, Cedonia, past & present

> Note that Mir's patron Goddess, Miracrasada(sp?)
> isn't included in
> Cedonia's pantheon. The fact of her existence is
> recognized by the
> Cedonian State Church, but Miracrasada doesn't seem
> to take calls from
> non-Mirs.

She does take calls from none-mirish.  She is just the
patron goddess of Mir.  She is the Godess over magic,
and families.  Most people know her as the goddess of
magic though.  So she does answear calls of magic
users.

After the fall of the Mirish empire magic was frowned
upon and some places out and out right made illigal. 
So my supsion, or suggestion, is that the real reason
why she is not in the Cedonian Pantheon is that they
do not want to reconize magic and tend to frown on it
so inviting the Godess of magic into their pantheon
even if she is also the Godess of family as well,
would be a sign of supporting magic, but denining her
excitence would be considered dangerous.

Considering the fact that mir did once have a huge
empire and did leave a influence of their culture.  My
supsion would be that all magic users would acknowlgde
her and most worship her (with the possible exception
of Ka'Shari), though they would pratice the worship in
private and not through the mirish church.  So as an
example, say you have some small village witch or a
magician in a bigger city in cedonia or one of the
free cities or other nations.  They would worship
Miracradasa but would consider praticing their magic
as how they worship her or they would have little
shrin in a conor of there house.  They would not
actolly go to a temple or anything.


	
		
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[Cel] [World] Some more thoughts on religion & art in, Cedonia, past & present

Jason Heaps wrote:

>After the fall of the Mirish empire magic was frowned
>upon and some places out and out right made illigal. 
>So my supsion, or suggestion, is that the real reason
>why she is not in the Cedonian Pantheon is that they
>do not want to reconize magic and tend to frown on it
>so inviting the Godess of magic into their pantheon
>even if she is also the Godess of family as well,
>would be a sign of supporting magic, but denining her
>excitence would be considered dangerous.
>
Well, in my opinion, the reason to exclude Miracradsa is
even more likely political. Andrew, how does the Cedonian
state church consider gods not in the pantheon (on the good,
or the evil side)? Deny their existance (unlikely),
deny their worship (likely), or allow their worship
in silence (possible).

>Considering the fact that mir did once have a huge
>empire and did leave a influence of their culture.  My
>supsion would be that all magic users would acknowlgde
>her and most worship her (with the possible exception
>of Ka'Shari), though they would pratice the worship in
>private and not through the mirish church.  
>
I would say that while Miracradsa is recognized by most
of those who practice magic in central Qaiyore (around the
Midsea), she is not necessarily the primary choice for
patron god(dess), except in circles close to Mir. Miracradsa
is _a_ goddess of magic. There are others who also
claim the title..., or at least part of it.
Of course, Miracradsa can have other names in other countries.

>free cities or other nations.  They would worship
>Miracradasa but would consider praticing their magic
>as how they worship her or they would have little
>shrin in a conor of there house.  They would not
>actolly go to a temple or anything.
>
That's entirely possible.

juuso
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[Cel] [World] Some more thoughts on religion & art in, Cedonia, past & present

--- Juha Vesanto  wrote:
> Jason Heaps wrote:
> 
> >After the fall of the Mirish empire magic was frowned
> >upon and some places out and out right made illigal. 
> >So my supsion, or suggestion, is that the real reason
> >why she is not in the Cedonian Pantheon is that they
> >do not want to reconize magic and tend to frown on it
> >so inviting the Godess of magic into their pantheon
> >even if she is also the Godess of family as well,
> >would be a sign of supporting magic, but denining her
> >excitence would be considered dangerous.
> >
> Well, in my opinion, the reason to exclude Miracradsa is
> even more likely political. Andrew, how does the Cedonian
> state church consider gods not in the pantheon (on the good,
> or the evil side)? Deny their existance (unlikely),
> deny their worship (likely), or allow their worship
> in silence (possible).
> 

Well, I don't have time to make a long answer right now, but the short
answer is it depends on the gods in question.  As the Cedonian Empire
expanded, they came in contact with a lot of different belief systems.
The worship of some gods they tried to suppress as competing with the
'official' gods. The worship of other gods was suppressed because the
Cedonians found those gods' rites to be intolerably vile. Some gods
were incorporated or co-opted into the State Church(the list I did
awhile back wasn't intended to be exhaustive). And a few gods and their
worshippers were simply let alone, ignored as being harmless, or too
limited, or too alien.

I'll go into more detail later--I've been working on a sort of
cosmology, but I don't have time to discuss it now. 

Andrew


	
		
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[Cel] Kaeir turn

I notice Kaeir does not have its turn listed on the site - wasn't the
Kaeirean turn received?

Cheers,

Ibrahim


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[Cel] Kaeir turn

Ibrahim wrote:

>I notice Kaeir does not have its turn listed on the site - wasn't the
>Kaeirean turn received?
>  
>
No. Or I might have accidentally deleted it. If so, please
send it again.

juuso
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