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Celandra is a game in which the players take the roles of societies, rather than playing individual characters. The players will invent a society with its culture and heritage, and will guide its development and interaction with the world. Emphasis will be be placed on developing a detailed history of Celandra, along with myths and legends.
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RulingNations
RulingNations

Sun

Jul 4
2004

15:09Z

[Cel] Demerhaze, Archetypes, and Other Musings

When I first wrote up the Litany of the Gods of Honor I commented that I
had no idea where Demerhaze came from, she just "seemed to fit." Well,
apparently my non-conscious mind has been working for some time on
complementary religions to the Ministry of Inquiry (of which Exquaestio
is a member), because I've since figured out how well my picture of
Demerhaze fits with the mythic structure of the Ministry.

In a world like Celandra, the deities exist regardless of the patterns
that mortals wish to put them in, whether those patterns be those of
logic or the unconscious. However, even if such a designation as "God of
Storms" has no real meaning to the god himself, that doesn't disallow a
religion or a god from making use of such a designation. For some gods
this may happen by accident, as a particular set of myths resonates with
a particular cultures, and another god's do not. More sophisticated
gods, however, will use this process deliberately.

On Celandra, Feroze has presented himself using a set of myths which are
suitable for the current world, but which are also suitable for a world
based on principles whose seeds or roots can currently be seen, but
which haven't attracted much notice. As so much of Celandra remains
undeveloped, I can't say what those myths are, but such was Feroze's
intention. As part of those myths he deliberately presented himself with
the archetype of the Guide. He holds the knowledge which will allow the
hero to avoid the dangers which might destroy him in his journey. His
knowledge will also help the hero the surmount the challenges which he
needs to face in order to achieve his destiny. In more technological
terms, Feroze provides a "map" which allows a worshiper to select a
destination appropriate to himself instead of being dragged along
according to the desires of others.

As a complement to the Ministry of Inquiry, the archetype I perceive for
Demerhaze is that of the Shadow Child. In this aspect she represents the
childish, primitive, and often animalistic urges which exist in all
worshipers. She is nature, the origin that all worshipers must grow
beyond to achieve their true destiny. She is the child that is left
behind when a worshipers grows to be an adult. She is the danger from
which the hero protects. She is the divine fool who drives the search
for wisdom. And yet, the priesthood of Demerhaze would understand very
well that "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." For when growth
is done, danger met, wisdom acquired, the worshiper discovers that
Demerhaze is just as much where he is now as where he was when he
started.

I see Demerhaze most often as being depicted as a child or young woman
in primitive or historical garb. Her tools are primitive, but effective.
Often she may be depicted as having two or three faces: one serene and
childlike, one feral and mad, and one blank and ignorant. However, it is
important to note that however shadowed and dreadful Demerhaze may be,
her religion exists not to worship or extend those shadows, but rather
to aide a worshiper in dealing with them. Thus, when a worshiper comes
to Demerhaze seeking vengeance, it is the duty of her priests to
aid the supplicant in such a way that he grows "beyond" the vengeance,
becoming greater than he was, not lesser. (As an ideal taught to the
priesthood the image of Inigo Montoya from _The Princess Bride_ comes to
my mind. Though had he be guided by the Cult of Demerhaze he would have
been far more prepared when his vengeance was achieved.)

Granted divine authority is usually extremely idiosyncratic. One chosen
priest might be granted the ability to see the relations between
individuals and how she can affect them. Her student might become a
destroyer ferocious and strong when calling upon the authority of
Demerhaze.

We can, of course, see how this religion can be easily misconstrued.
Even for its adherents it becomes all to easy to confuse its worship of
means (childhood as a means to adulthood, ignorance as a means to
knowledge, and vengeance as a means to morality) as a worship of ends
(unending childhood, deliberate ignorance, and vengeance for vengeance's
sake). There is another issue, however, which makes the Cult of
Demerhaze even less popular in certain areas. To societies based upon
obedience and stability, the Cult of Demerhaze is a haven of rebels,
freethinkers, and radicals (or whatever epithets are most appropriate to
the culture in question). Such cultures often attempt to anathematize
the Cult, only to find that their efforts may have destroyed the cult,
but done nothing about the problems they thought the Cult originated.

Such, then, is the cult of Demerhaze. Its complementary aspects with
Feroze's worship should be obvious. Demerhaze is the origin or mystery
which leads the worshiper to seek out Feroze for the tools and
instructions needed to reach towards the final destination (not
currently identified with a particular god). Demerhaze and Feroze thus
join together (with the subsidiary organizations and deities) as members
of a single pantheon; allies in some ways, rivals in others, but not
differing in ultimate goals.

(Comments?)

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sun

Jul 4
2004

23:39Z

[Cel] Demerhaze, Archetypes, and Other Musings

RulingNations@aol.com wrote:

>When I first wrote up the Litany of the Gods of Honor I commented that I
>had no idea where Demerhaze came from, she just "seemed to fit." Well,
>apparently my non-conscious mind has been working for some time on
>complementary religions to the Ministry of Inquiry (of which Exquaestio
>is a member), because I've since figured out how well my picture of
>Demerhaze fits with the mythic structure of the Ministry.
>
>In a world like Celandra, the deities exist regardless of the patterns
>that mortals wish to put them in, whether those patterns be those of
>logic or the unconscious. However, even if such a designation as "God of
>Storms" has no real meaning to the god himself, that doesn't disallow a
>religion or a god from making use of such a designation. For some gods
>this may happen by accident, as a particular set of myths resonates with
>a particular cultures, and another god's do not. More sophisticated
>gods, however, will use this process deliberately.
>  
>
I rather like this concept.



>As a complement to the Ministry of Inquiry, the archetype I perceive for
>Demerhaze is that of the Shadow Child. In this aspect she represents the
>childish, primitive, and often animalistic urges which exist in all
>worshipers. She is nature, the origin that all worshipers must grow
>beyond to achieve their true destiny. She is the child that is left
>behind when a worshipers grows to be an adult. She is the danger from
>which the hero protects. She is the divine fool who drives the search
>for wisdom. And yet, the priesthood of Demerhaze would understand very
>well that "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." For when growth
>is done, danger met, wisdom acquired, the worshiper discovers that
>Demerhaze is just as much where he is now as where he was when he
>started.
>
>  
>
This strikes me as being the most sophisticated interpretation of 
Demerhaze, one that would be used by a sophisticated society. In a more 
primitive culture, such as the mountain clans of Kasovia, her more feral 
aspects would come to the fore.

>I see Demerhaze most often as being depicted as a child or young woman
>in primitive or historical garb. Her tools are primitive, but effective.
>Often she may be depicted as having two or three faces: one serene and
>childlike, one feral and mad, and one blank and ignorant. However, it is
>important to note that however shadowed and dreadful Demerhaze may be,
>her religion exists not to worship or extend those shadows, but rather
>to aide a worshiper in dealing with them. Thus, when a worshiper comes
>to Demerhaze seeking vengeance, it is the duty of her priests to
>aid the supplicant in such a way that he grows "beyond" the vengeance,
>becoming greater than he was, not lesser. (As an ideal taught to the
>priesthood the image of Inigo Montoya from _The Princess Bride_ comes to
>my mind. Though had he be guided by the Cult of Demerhaze he would have
>been far more prepared when his vengeance was achieved.)
>
>  
>
I don't entirely agree with the above paragraph. For the Kasovian 
worshippers of Demerhaze, the concept of growing beyond vengeance is 
meaningless. The majority of Kasovians have no concept of justice beyond 
vengeance and blood-feud. A real-life analogy would be traditional 
Albanian culture, as contained in the /Canon of Lek/. In the 1990s, a 
Western relief mission had to pull out of Albania due to constant 
attacks by members of one extended family. When asked why they were 
attacking the relief workers, the clansmen explained that the relief 
workers had given food and water to a family with who they had a blood 
feud. Under the /Canon of Lek/, the first family was obligated to attack 
the relief mission, even though that meant losing access to food and 
clean water for the whole region. Kasovian blood-feuds are similar.

Another analogy would be the relationship between the Narn and the 
Centauri in /Babylon 5/. "Blood cries out for blood." Kasovian 
blood-feuds and vengeance cycles often continue until one or the other 
or both families involved are completely extirpated.

However, Demerhaze's most important aspect in Kasovian society is as the 
Goddess of Night and Darkness. In that role, she is reputed to be the 
mistress of all the things which go 'bump' in the night.

>Granted divine authority is usually extremely idiosyncratic. One chosen
>priest might be granted the ability to see the relations between
>individuals and how she can affect them. Her student might become a
>destroyer ferocious and strong when calling upon the authority of
>Demerhaze.
>
>We can, of course, see how this religion can be easily misconstrued.
>Even for its adherents it becomes all to easy to confuse its worship of
>means (childhood as a means to adulthood, ignorance as a means to
>knowledge, and vengeance as a means to morality) as a worship of ends
>(unending childhood, deliberate ignorance, and vengeance for vengeance's
>sake). There is another issue, however, which makes the Cult of
>Demerhaze even less popular in certain areas. To societies based upon
>obedience and stability, the Cult of Demerhaze is a haven of rebels,
>freethinkers, and radicals (or whatever epithets are most appropriate to
>the culture in question). Such cultures often attempt to anathematize
>the Cult, only to find that their efforts may have destroyed the cult,
>but done nothing about the problems they thought the Cult originated.
>
>  
>
Another nifty idea. However, I somewhat prefer the notion suggested in 
an earlier post, which was that Demerhaze's main worshippers in urban 
societies are the marginalized: escaped slaves, beggars, street 
children, orphans, the poorest of the poor. Still, the two conceptions 
are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

>Such, then, is the cult of Demerhaze. Its complementary aspects with
>Feroze's worship should be obvious. Demerhaze is the origin or mystery
>which leads the worshiper to seek out Feroze for the tools and
>instructions needed to reach towards the final destination (not
>currently identified with a particular god). Demerhaze and Feroze thus
>join together (with the subsidiary organizations and deities) as members
>of a single pantheon; allies in some ways, rivals in others, but not
>differing in ultimate goals.
>
>(Comments?)
>
>  
>
One final thought: is Demerhaze a 'native' Being of the Dreaming, 
co-opted into the Ferozian pantheon; or is she an Outsider? Personally, 
I'm inclined to the first choice, because much has already been written 
that implies Demerhaze to be 'native'. In particular, there's her ties 
to Lucia, who *is* native to the Dreaming.

Andrew Janssen

>Jefferson (Exquaestio)
>http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>  
>

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JuhaVesanto
juuso

Mon

Jul 5
2004

07:12Z

[Cel] Demerhaze, Archetypes, and Other Musings

Andrew Janssen wrote:

> I rather like this concept.
>
Me, too. It is rather more interesting than a simple-minded
blood-and-vengeance cult.

Just imagine a stable, advanced society whose concept of justice and
retribution would be based on that kind of ideal.

> This strikes me as being the most sophisticated interpretation of 
> Demerhaze, one that would be used by a sophisticated society. In a 
> more primitive culture, such as the mountain clans of Kasovia, her 
> more feral aspects would come to the fore.
>
I think this is a key-phrase w.r.t to your examples below. Kasovians
for example might have started with a more sophisticated version of
the cult of Demerhaze, but mixed with their environment (both
physical and social) over the years they have started to emphasize
the more primitive aspects; those being the easiest to understand.

Note that "sophisticated" society does not exclude seemingly primitive
cultures. For example the Onagir are semi-sedentary hunter-gatherers, but
their religious and philosophical structure is very sophisticated.

> However, Demerhaze's most important aspect in Kasovian society is as 
> the Goddess of Night and Darkness. In that role, she is reputed to be 
> the mistress of all the things which go 'bump' in the night.
>
Based on the discussion above, this seems like an adopted characteristic
rather than an inherent one. (But that's people for you. They pick out
labels and stick them all over you whether you want them or not.) Not
that it is unsuitable, just something Demerhaze really did not start with.

>> sake). There is another issue, however, which makes the Cult of
>> Demerhaze even less popular in certain areas. To societies based upon
>> obedience and stability, the Cult of Demerhaze is a haven of rebels,
>> freethinkers, and radicals (or whatever epithets are most appropriate to
>> the culture in question). Such cultures often attempt to anathematize
>> the Cult, only to find that their efforts may have destroyed the cult,
>> but done nothing about the problems they thought the Cult originated.
>>
I like this idea very much.

> One final thought: is Demerhaze a 'native' Being of the Dreaming, 
> co-opted into the Ferozian pantheon; or is she an Outsider? 
> Personally, I'm inclined to the first choice, because much has already 
> been written that implies Demerhaze to be 'native'. In particular, 
> there's her ties to Lucia, who *is* native to the Dreaming.
>
Demerhaze is "native". But Feroze and Demerhaze compliment each other 
very well,
so I would suppose there is a "native" version of Feroze around 
somewhere. It
might just be that he/she/it never got off the ground as well as Demerhaze
(a decisive victory for Demerhaze at an early struggle?). OR it might be 
that
Feroze *is* actually the old opponent (opposite/composite/??) of Demerhaze,
but one that has been influenced by Outsiders.

juuso



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RulingNations
RulingNations

Mon

Jul 12
2004

03:39Z

[Cel] Demerhaze, Archetypes, and Other Musings

Naturally different cultures will interpret Demerhaze in different ways,
and the fact that Demerhaze is more alien to human nature than most
human deities doesn't help matters. There are also aspects of Demerhaze
which I didn't describe because they are irrelevant to the way she
complements Feroze.

In a message dated 7/5/04 1:12:48 AM Mountain Daylight Time, 
juha.vesanto@iki.fi writes:
>
>Demerhaze is "native". But Feroze and Demerhaze compliment each other
>very well, so I would suppose there is a "native" version of Feroze
>around somewhere.

I don't see any reason to assume that just because the religions
complement each other so well that they have a similar origin. Indeed,
considering the mythic nature of the relation, something on the order of
"true love meeting across social and cultural barriers" is much more
compelling.

If there ever was a god similar to Feroze in Celandra's dreaming, he was
likely destroyed or subsumed a long time ago. As god of discovery,
Celandra's Feroze would show a great deal of potential, but not a great
deal of power in his early years. That roughly makes him an "easily
conquered threat." Alternatively, Exquaestio's philosophers believe that
Feroze has spent a great deal of time in distant parts of the dreaming,
and only recently gained sufficient power to make it worthwhile to
interact with Celandra.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
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