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Celandra is a game in which the players take the roles of societies, rather than playing individual characters. The players will invent a society with its culture and heritage, and will guide its development and interaction with the world. Emphasis will be be placed on developing a detailed history of Celandra, along with myths and legends.
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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Thu

Aug 12
2004

01:39Z

[Cel] Papermaking

I've been doing a little bit of research on papermaking.  I've made the 
interesting discovery that, really, there's no reason for Qaiyore _not_ 
to have papermaking.  Unfortunately, there's also no real reason for 
Qaiyore _to_ have papermaking.

What do people think?  Does Qaiyore have paper?

Personally, I would like to say yes.  Then, if we make cheap paper a 
relatively recent innovation, it might do something to explain the 
recent rise of republics and various other issues involving recent 
changes in status due to the game.

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html


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JuhaVesanto
juuso

Thu

Aug 12
2004

04:22Z

[Cel] Papermaking

Jefferson Wilson wrote:

>What do people think?  Does Qaiyore have paper?
>  
>
I'd say yes.

>Personally, I would like to say yes.  Then, if we make cheap paper a 
>relatively recent innovation, it might do something to explain the 
>recent rise of republics and various other issues involving recent 
>changes in status due to the game.
>  
>
Well, paper making was invented in China ages ago (AD or BC?), and it 
wasn't a major factor
in the formation of Chinese Republic a couple of thousand years later, 
so I don't think these
two are much connected. I would rather say that paper is an old 
invention - 400-500 years
at least. But it is still -- or, until recently it has been -- mostly 
hand-made, so it's use is (has been?)
reserved for books and other relatively expensive items (as opposed to 
leaflets etc. to distribute
propaganda with).

juuso
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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Thu

Aug 12
2004

04:52Z

[Cel] Papermaking

-----Original Message-----
From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] On Behalf Of Juha
Vesanto
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:22 PM
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Subject: Re: [Cel] Papermaking


Jefferson Wilson wrote:

>What do people think?  Does Qaiyore have paper?
>  
>
I'd say yes.

>Personally, I would like to say yes.  Then, if we make cheap paper a
>relatively recent innovation, it might do something to explain the 
>recent rise of republics and various other issues involving recent 
>changes in status due to the game.
>  
>
Well, paper making was invented in China ages ago (AD or BC?), and it 
wasn't a major factor
in the formation of Chinese Republic a couple of thousand years later, 
so I don't think these
two are much connected. I would rather say that paper is an old 
invention - 400-500 years
at least. But it is still -- or, until recently it has been -- mostly 
hand-made, so it's use is (has been?)
reserved for books and other relatively expensive items (as opposed to 
leaflets etc. to distribute
propaganda with).

---

I'd agree.  Regarding propaganda, paper was only really used after
Gutenberg etc - prior to that it was in song and poem that political
ideas, messages and criticisms were made.

Ibraehim


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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Sat

Aug 14
2004

02:26Z

[Cel] Papermaking

I'd have to argue that paper did exist in Qaiyore, but so would papyrus
and hide-based parchments.  The quantity of paper though would be the
issue.  In more intellectual cultures, paper would be far more abundant
(little paper use by the Shanariyyah in the Calarnari desert,
significant paper use by the Mirrish wizards), though parchment would be
used for documents intended for long-term preservation and records.

All of this would require supply of suitable timber, and leather.  Paper
use would be dependant on how common the former or latter is in a
region, and the level of culture in the region as well.

I think paper use would be higher in the Midsea lands, rather than the
outer Qaiyorean societies, given the major trade routes that run the rim
of the Midsea (and hence greater supply of writing material).  Societies
with active or strong intellectualism, sophisticated or active movements
would also have a higher use of paper (Mir, Exquaisito [sic], Cedonia,
Kaeir).  A society formerly in this category, Videssia, has probably
declined greatly in its state of literacy.

Regards,

Ibrahim

 


-----Original Message-----
From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] On Behalf Of
Jefferson Wilson
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:39 AM
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Subject: [Cel] Papermaking


I've been doing a little bit of research on papermaking.  I've made the 
interesting discovery that, really, there's no reason for Qaiyore _not_ 
to have papermaking.  Unfortunately, there's also no real reason for 
Qaiyore _to_ have papermaking.

What do people think?  Does Qaiyore have paper?

Personally, I would like to say yes.  Then, if we make cheap paper a 
relatively recent innovation, it might do something to explain the 
recent rise of republics and various other issues involving recent 
changes in status due to the game.

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html


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Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sat

Aug 14
2004

20:42Z

[Cel] Papermaking

Ibrahim wrote:

>I'd have to argue that paper did exist in Qaiyore, but so would papyrus
>and hide-based parchments.  The quantity of paper though would be the
>issue.  In more intellectual cultures, paper would be far more abundant
>(little paper use by the Shanariyyah in the Calarnari desert,
>significant paper use by the Mirrish wizards), though parchment would be
>used for documents intended for long-term preservation and records.
>
>All of this would require supply of suitable timber, and leather.  Paper
>use would be dependant on how common the former or latter is in a
>region, and the level of culture in the region as well.
>
>  
>
Papermaking does not necessarily require pulpwood. The Chinese, who 
invented paper, used hemp to make their paper, and even today, the 
highest quality paper is made from linen rags. The only reason we don't 
use hemp paper in America is that William Randolph Hearst invested 
heavily in the pulpwood paper-making process, and in order to protect 
his investment, he used his influence to have industrial hemp banned 
along with marijuana. The process for making hemp paper is, IIRC, 
somewhat cheaper and less polluting than the process of making pulpwood 
paper.

>I think paper use would be higher in the Midsea lands, rather than the
>outer Qaiyorean societies, given the major trade routes that run the rim
>of the Midsea (and hence greater supply of writing material).  Societies
>with active or strong intellectualism, sophisticated or active movements
>would also have a higher use of paper (Mir, Exquaisito [sic], Cedonia,
>Kaeir).  A society formerly in this category, Videssia, has probably
>declined greatly in its state of literacy.
>
>  
>
Torphan almost certainly uses paper; indeed, it could be that they 
invented it, and the technology of paper was introduced to the MidSea 
when the Cedonians conquered Torphan's MidSea provinces back around 690.

Andrew

>Regards,
>
>Ibrahim
>
> 
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] On Behalf Of
>Jefferson Wilson
>Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:39 AM
>To: celandra@phoenyx.net
>Subject: [Cel] Papermaking
>
>
>I've been doing a little bit of research on papermaking.  I've made the 
>interesting discovery that, really, there's no reason for Qaiyore _not_ 
>to have papermaking.  Unfortunately, there's also no real reason for 
>Qaiyore _to_ have papermaking.
>
>What do people think?  Does Qaiyore have paper?
>
>Personally, I would like to say yes.  Then, if we make cheap paper a 
>relatively recent innovation, it might do something to explain the 
>recent rise of republics and various other issues involving recent 
>changes in status due to the game.
>
>Jefferson (Exquaestio)
>http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>
>================================
>Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
>================================
>This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>  
>

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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Sat

Aug 14
2004

21:26Z

[Cel] Papermaking

Andrew Janssen wrote:
> Ibrahim wrote:
> 
> Papermaking does not necessarily require pulpwood. The Chinese, who 
> invented paper, used hemp to make their paper, and even today, the 
> highest quality paper is made from linen rags. The only reason we don't 
> use hemp paper in America is that William Randolph Hearst invested 
> heavily in the pulpwood paper-making process, and in order to protect 
> his investment, he used his influence to have industrial hemp banned 
> along with marijuana. The process for making hemp paper is, IIRC, 
> somewhat cheaper and less polluting than the process of making pulpwood 
> paper.

You're actually confusing two separate processes here.  Chinese hemp 
paper still used a wood pulp matrix. Other than replacing hemp fiber for 
cotton or linen the process was essentially identical.  Unfortunately, 
it produced a softer paper which, while quite suitable for brushes, was 
unsuitable for pens.  Modern "haws" paper uses the haws from hemp stems 
as the major ingredient, combining them with a lesser amount of fiber. 
However, the techniques to cheaply manufacture haws paper were only 
invented early in the 20th century.  But, yes, making haws paper is 
slightly cheaper and _much_ less polluting than acid pulp paper (so long 
as the base materials aren't illegal, of course).

I have to wonder if reed paper (papyrus) was ever developed in the 
MidSea.  There really don't seem to be any sufficiently large populated 
deltas.  (Sidenote: From what I can tell, reed paper is more suited to 
pens than brushes.)

Another paper substitute is bark cloth, invented in China and used in 
Indonesia and Polynesia (tapa).  Basically, bark cloth has all the 
disadvantages of both paper and cloth, but when you don't have paper or 
cloth in the first place . . .

The Maya and Aztecs used a sort of bark parchment.  It looks like it was 
manufactured in the same way as bark cloth, but thicker and stiffer. 
(And not really "parchment" which is made from animal hides, but that's 
what my sources call it.)  These peoples used brushes, and I have no 
idea how suited this paper is to pens.

Going even more primitive, records can be kept on leather or hide, bark 
(the amerind tribes of America's northeast used birchbark to good 
effect), or large leaves.  (I imagine a lot of Exquaestio's records 
being kept on bark, since they can't afford to buy large amounts of paper.)

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/


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JuhaVesanto
juuso

Sun

Aug 15
2004

16:04Z

[Cel] Papermaking

Jefferson Wilson wrote:
> I have to wonder if reed paper (papyrus) was ever developed in the 
> MidSea.  There really don't seem to be any sufficiently large populated 
> deltas.

Hmm... then probably not.

> effect), or large leaves.  (I imagine a lot of Exquaestio's records 
> being kept on bark, since they can't afford to buy large amounts of paper.)

This actually illustrates the status of paper quite well, I think.
It exists, but it is not cheapest material to keep notes on.

juuso
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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Sat

Aug 14
2004

20:44Z

[Cel] Papermaking

 From a report to the Exquaestio Primacy c. 1447

------

Papermaking first arose in the MidSea during the height of the Cedonian
empire. There it was restricted to the more populous and better educated
areas of the Empire. Early paper was sophisticated, with a number of
different grades and purposes, and did not improve during the Cedonian
period. It is thus likely that papermaking was not invented in Cedonia,
but borrowed from another land, most likely Torphan. In the wake of
Cedonia's fall, the knowledge of how to make paper was scattered, and is
known today by all civilized nations.

Around 1350, the papermakers of Videssia began using mechanical
trip hammers (driven by water wheels) in the pulping process. This made
Videssia the preeminent paper supplier in the MidSea until the Videssan
civil war, and caused a steady decline in paper prices.

In the wake of the Videssan blockade and civil war several Videssan
style paper mills have been constructed in other areas. Some Videssan
paper manufacturers fled to Kaeir and were responsible for establishing
highly profitable Videssan style paper mills on the Kaeiran controlled
mainland. Several of the Free Cities also have Videssan paper mills. A
Videssan mill has also been established in Parglug, though it has not
proven very profitable.

Most paper manufacture is still done with old-fashioned handwork. The
more densely populated areas of the MidSea, with cheap labor, see no
reason to change to the Videssan process.

Most recently, Exquaestio's introduction of the kite (invented by Feroze
in 1436) has caused certain people to look at paper for uses other than
records.


Comments?

---

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

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