Here are some more tidbits about Cedonian religious belief. The usual caveat applies: this is a strictly Cedonian interpretation of some of the Beings of the Dreaming and their interactions, and may or may not bear a resemblance to the "truth" of the matter. A second caveat: not everything discussed below is common knowledge to all Cedonians. The general outline of the processes of reincarnation and ultimate judgment are common knowledge, but some of the details are closely held by the Cedonian Church and are not common knowledge to the general public. Andrew * * * * * The Nature of Souls and their Fates ----------------------------------- While humans are largely creatures of the material world, Celandra, they are possessed of a portion of the spirit world, the Dreaming. That portion is what is called "the soul". Souls are initially created raw and unformed from the essence of the Dreaming by the god Coron. The soul is bound to a body, and the unformed soul is gradually shaped and formed by its life-experiences in Celandra. At the moment of the death of the material body, the soul is collected by a coriel, a psychopompic(soul-escorting) servant of Coron. The soul is taken to the Halls of Judgment, where Coron and Lucia dwell. Coron judges whether the soul's life-experiences have completed its formation, or if potential for growth or change remains to be tapped; Lucia then passes judgment on the moral state of the soul. A soul's fate is determined by the judgments of these two gods. Souls whom Lucia finds to have led lives that were either good or neither good nor evil, and that Coron finds to be incomplete or unfinished, are reincarnated. This is often the fate of those who die as children or adolescents, or whose initial life was in a body that was severely handicapped in some way, or who otherwise died untimely deaths. The gods are patient; Coron will reincarnate a soul as many times as is necessary to complete it. As long as some aspect of the soul retains a capacity for growth, it will cycle through incarnations. The unfinished soul of someone who led an immoral or evil life is also reincarnated. However, Lucia will not let an evil soul go unpunished. The souls of those who were evil in their past life are generally reincarnated into circumstances where, it is hoped, they will learn the virtues of empathy and compassion. When Coron judges a soul to be complete, Lucia's judgment of the soul's bias towards good or evil determines its final destination. The finished souls of those who led upright, moral lives have one of three fates. If, in its past lives, a soul was particularily devoted to one god, it goes to that god's Halls in the Dreaming. An example would be a soul that was a merchant in every incarnation going to Cedon's Halls, or a soul that always incarnated as a musician going to Kaskasoevin's Eternal Party. The second alternative applies to those souls that, while living moral lives, never adhered to one particular god. They become servants in the Halls of Judgment. The third and final alternative applies to those who might be called 'great-souled'. Those souls that were in some way exceptional in life, embodying some special quality beyond the normal human capacity, become part of the gods' Great Work. These Great Souls are the Cedonian gods' greatest servants, often acting as messengers or intermediaries to the living. If, when a soul attains a completed state, the balance of its incarnations were evil, it is normally cast into the Halls of Nightmare, the dominion of the goddess Demerhaze. The Halls are a place of madness & torment for those souls incarcerated there. However, even here there is one last chance at redemption. Part of Demehaze's 'portfolio' is the development of self-awareness(see Jefferson's excellent prior posting). Souls moving through the Halls of Nightmare have the opportunity to show remorse and repentance for their past actions in life, one last chance to learn empathy, compassion, and altruism. If a soul does achieve this redemption in the Halls of Nightmare, it is released to become a servant of Demerhaze. Demerhaze, through her servants, may send nightmares to those currently leading evil lives, giving them a chance to repent in life and avoid the Nightmare Halls in death. Souls sentenced to the Halls of Nightmare are those which Lucia believes have the capacity to repent, given time. It may take a thousand thousand years, but any soul in the Halls of Nightmare will eventually attain redemption. There are those souls, however, which are ultimately irredeemable out of arrogance, pride, or selfishness; or that committed acts in life so vile as to shock the gods themselves; or were evil in every incarnation without exception. For those souls, Coron and Lucia feel it to be more merciful to simply destroy them, rather than subject them to eternal torment for no good purpose. The souls are merged back into the fabric of the Dreaming whence they came. Some gods and Beings of other pantheons have argued for casting such evil souls into the Void outside the Dreaming, but such suggestions are no longer considered since the Alatta/Sin-Alb Incident. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > The Nature of Souls and their Fates > ----------------------------------- > While humans are largely creatures of the material world, Celandra, they > are possessed of a portion of the spirit world, the Dreaming. That > portion is what is called "the soul". Souls are initially created raw > and unformed from the essence of the Dreaming by the god Coron. The soul > is bound to a body, and the unformed soul is gradually shaped and formed > by its life-experiences in Celandra. Exquaestio believes that the production of new souls is not dependent on a particular deity. Were Coron to be removed, new souls would still occur. > At the moment of the death of the material body, the soul is collected > by a coriel, a psychopompic (soul-escorting) servant of Coron. Different types of these entities are mentioned in _The Book of Travels_. When a person dies and his soul is in danger, Fvalrie appear to protect it. Lugan guide souls to their ultimate destination. Ashtra take souls involuntarily from the living (but may have all been destroyed the gods). Semrithe can force a disembodied soul or spirit into the Dreaming. (It's a bit unclear whether Semrithe are extremely rare, whether Feroze is reluctant to send them, or whether their actions are mostly unnoticed.) A related spirit is the Dvas, which gathers the prayers of the living so that they may be answered by the divine hierarchy. Supposedly every community of Questae has a Dvas associated with it, paralleling, but not dependent on, the anradan. > The soul > is taken to the Halls of Judgment, where Coron and Lucia dwell. Coron > judges whether the soul's life-experiences have completed its formation, > or if potential for growth or change remains to be tapped; Lucia then > passes judgment on the moral state of the soul. A soul's fate is > determined by the judgments of these two gods. Led by a Lugan the newly deceased soul enters the Dreaming. There it will encounter tests and trials which determine its final destination. These tests and trials are necessary because the soul, unaffected by a physical body, is significantly different from the soul+body combination. Final destinations include existence in a god's realm, continuing travel through the Dreaming, reincarnation, or even return to the physical world as undead. (Feroze prefers the first, accepts the second, and tries to prevent the third and fourth. The details of what happens when Coron wants to reincarnate a questae are unknown.) This view of the judging process is not incompatible with Cedonian beliefs. The difference lies in "where" the judging process occurs; which most will admit is probably inexplicable to the living. > Souls whom Lucia finds to have led lives that were either good or > neither good nor evil, and that Coron finds to be incomplete or > unfinished, are reincarnated. This is often the fate of those who die as > children or adolescents, or whose initial life was in a body that was > severely handicapped in some way, or who otherwise died untimely deaths. > The gods are patient; Coron will reincarnate a soul as many times as is > necessary to complete it. As long as some aspect of the soul retains a > capacity for growth, it will cycle through incarnations. The current belief (not backed by a story in _The Book of Travels_) in Exquaestio is that if a soul followed a particular deity in life, that deity will participate in the judgment. In some areas (the Northern Free Cities) this is in addition to Lucia, in most it is instead of her. As Feroze disapproves of reincarnation, the relationship between the gods can be adversarial. > The unfinished soul of someone who led an immoral or evil life is also > reincarnated. However, Lucia will not let an evil soul go unpunished. > The souls of those who were evil in their past life are generally > reincarnated into circumstances where, it is hoped, they will learn the > virtues of empathy and compassion. "That those born in poor circumstances are there because of actions in previous lives should not be simply accepted, even if true." (direct quote from _The Book of Travels_; additionally, several stories touch on the pernicious influence of this belief.) [remainder snipped. While there are divergences, they are probably no greater than the local variations in Cedonia.] (Hmmm, I think I now have enough for an Exquaestio philosophy page.) Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson Wilson wrote: >Andrew Janssen wrote: > > > >>The Nature of Souls and their Fates >>----------------------------------- >>While humans are largely creatures of the material world, Celandra, they >>are possessed of a portion of the spirit world, the Dreaming. That >>portion is what is called "the soul". Souls are initially created raw >>and unformed from the essence of the Dreaming by the god Coron. The soul >>is bound to a body, and the unformed soul is gradually shaped and formed >>by its life-experiences in Celandra. >> >> > >Exquaestio believes that the production of new souls is not dependent on a >particular deity. Were Coron to be removed, new souls would still occur. > > > I assume that the usual caveat applies? But, see below also. >>At the moment of the death of the material body, the soul is collected >>by a coriel, a psychopompic (soul-escorting) servant of Coron. >> >> > >Different types of these entities are mentioned in _The Book of Travels_. >When a person dies and his soul is in danger, Fvalrie appear to protect it. >Lugan guide souls to their ultimate destination. Ashtra take souls >involuntarily from the living (but may have all been destroyed the gods). >Semrithe can force a disembodied soul or spirit into the Dreaming. (It's a >bit unclear whether Semrithe are extremely rare, whether Feroze is reluctant >to send them, or whether their actions are mostly unnoticed.) > >A related spirit is the Dvas, which gathers the prayers of the living so that >they may be answered by the divine hierarchy. Supposedly every community of >Questae has a Dvas associated with it, paralleling, but not dependent on, the >anradan. > > > Cedonians would probably interpret Lugans and coriels as being the same, in essence. Coron would be an implacable enemy to the Ashtra, as he is to any being that would interfere with a soul's progress from life to death and back again. Coron also is the foe of those who would try to call the souls of the dead back to Celandra for their own gain--necromancers who try to raise a dead king to find where he hid his treasure, for example. >>The soul >>is taken to the Halls of Judgment, where Coron and Lucia dwell. Coron >>judges whether the soul's life-experiences have completed its formation, >>or if potential for growth or change remains to be tapped; Lucia then >>passes judgment on the moral state of the soul. A soul's fate is >>determined by the judgments of these two gods. >> >> > >Led by a Lugan the newly deceased soul enters the Dreaming. There it will >encounter tests and trials which determine its final destination. These tests >and trials are necessary because the soul, unaffected by a physical body, is >significantly different from the soul+body combination. Final destinations >include existence in a god's realm, continuing travel through the Dreaming, >reincarnation, or even return to the physical world as undead. (Feroze >prefers the first, accepts the second, and tries to prevent the third and >fourth. The details of what happens when Coron wants to reincarnate a questae >are unknown.) > > > Coron and Lucia probably would never judge the soul of a questae--they are only concerned with the souls of adherents to the Cedonian Church or related faiths. While the laity believe that Coron creates all souls, the inner circles of the church suspect that he is only responsible for the souls of those who worship one of the Cedonian pantheon, and that other gods of other peoples may also create souls. Also, 'creation' is perhaps not the best way to describe what Coron does with souls--it would, perhaps, be more appropriate to describe the process as adjusting the potential soul so that it can join properly with the material body. If a questae soul were to stand before Coron and Lucia, assuming that it followed the dictates of Exquaestio, it would have no problem passing Lucia's judgment, and probably would pass Coron's scrutiny as well. However, while Coron will try to respect Exquaestio's beliefs on reincarnation, if he feels that the soul is seriously lacking in some aspect, he will send it back. This would only likely happen, however, with a questae who has done an extremely poor job of following his or her religion's tenets >This view of the judging process is not incompatible with Cedonian beliefs. >The difference lies in "where" the judging process occurs; which most will >admit is probably inexplicable to the living. > > > >>Souls whom Lucia finds to have led lives that were either good or >>neither good nor evil, and that Coron finds to be incomplete or >>unfinished, are reincarnated. This is often the fate of those who die as >>children or adolescents, or whose initial life was in a body that was >>severely handicapped in some way, or who otherwise died untimely deaths. >>The gods are patient; Coron will reincarnate a soul as many times as is >>necessary to complete it. As long as some aspect of the soul retains a >>capacity for growth, it will cycle through incarnations. >> >> > >The current belief (not backed by a story in _The Book of Travels_) in >Exquaestio is that if a soul followed a particular deity in life, that deity >will participate in the judgment. In some areas (the Northern Free Cities) >this is in addition to Lucia, in most it is instead of her. As Feroze >disapproves of reincarnation, the relationship between the gods can be >adversarial. > > > Cedonian thought is that the other gods do not pass judgment on the dead; it is not their province. They may advise, but Coron and Lucia have the last word. The criteria that Coron uses to judge souls are largely beyond human comprehension; no-one really knows how he decides that this soul needs another incarnation, while that soul is completed after a single life. It is believed by some that the criterion is material accomplishments in life, but most believe that what Coron is interested in is whether or not a soul realized its potential. Coron himself will say nothing on the matter, nor will his servants answer questions on the matter On the other hand, Lucia's criteria are much easier to understand. Did the soul's acts in life promote justice or injustice? Did the soul in life treat other people as the living, thinking, feeling beings that they are; or did the soul act selfishly, without regard for the humanity of others? Was the soul honest more often than not? When the soul acted in ways that brought harm to others, did it feel remorse and regret for the suffering it caused, or were its feelings of regret simply the regret of having been caught? Did the soul in life try to recompense those it injured and help those in need, or did it solely look out for itself, hardening its heart to others' pain? >>The unfinished soul of someone who led an immoral or evil life is also >>reincarnated. However, Lucia will not let an evil soul go unpunished. >>The souls of those who were evil in their past life are generally >>reincarnated into circumstances where, it is hoped, they will learn the >>virtues of empathy and compassion. >> >> > >"That those born in poor circumstances are there because of actions in >previous lives should not be simply accepted, even if true." (direct quote >from _The Book of Travels_; additionally, several stories touch on the >pernicious influence of this belief.) > > > Cedonians do not believe that evil souls are always reborn in poor circumstances, they believe that evil souls are reincarnated into circumstances where they can learn compassion. It's a fine distinction, but the two are not necessarily the same. The important thing is that the reincarnations of those who were evil in past lives are closely monitored by the gods. The Cedonian gods enjoy the challenge of trying to teach a person who has everything to be understanding of, and compassionate towards, those who have nothing--an evil soul is as likely to be reborn as a merchant prince's heir or a yeoman farmer's son, as it is to be reborn as a slave or a beggar's brat.. Their interventions are subtle, often through dreams--they prefer the nudge to the shove. There have been occasions, however, where persons who were wasting their potential, or who had ignored the more subtle warnings of the gods, received the divine equivalent of a boot to the head. The patience of the gods is nearly infinite; but their tolerance for willful stupidity is not. Note also that Cedonians do not believe that human souls are ever reincarnated in animal bodies--they believe that a human soul wouldn't "fit" properly in an animal, nor vice versa. That's not to say that they believe that animals are soulless, only that animals possess souls of a different nature. Andrew >[remainder snipped. While there are divergences, they are probably no greater >than the local variations in Cedonia.] > >(Hmmm, I think I now have enough for an Exquaestio philosophy page.) > >Jefferson (Exquaestio) >http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
In one of the stories in _The Book of Travels_ Feroze is called upon by the Lord of the Dead (obviously Cedon) to help judge a mortal who claims to follow Feroze. While the story could be read as simply giving guidelines to the proper behavior desired by Feroze, Exquaestio prefers a more literal view. In this judgement Feroze brings up ten virtues (Dream, Exploration, Otherness, Fiction, Learning, Research, Space, Thought, Time, and Truth) and uses them as measures against the man's life. He dismisses some actions as being the result of the four limitations (Capability, Communication, Assumption, and Perception) for which the soul is not responsible. He also states that the soul can continue to grow and learn even though it is now dead. The story ends just before judgement is passed, and the questor is left to decide what judgement would be appropriate. Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson Wilson wrote: >In one of the stories in _The Book of Travels_ Feroze is called upon by the >Lord of the Dead (obviously Cedon) to help judge a mortal who claims to follow >Feroze. While the story could be read as simply giving guidelines to the >proper behavior desired by Feroze, Exquaestio prefers a more literal view. > > > Er, Coron is the God of the Dead, not Cedon. Cedon is the God of Travellers and Traders. >In this judgement Feroze brings up ten virtues (Dream, Exploration, Otherness, > Fiction, Learning, Research, Space, Thought, Time, and Truth) and uses them >as measures against the man's life. He dismisses some actions as being the >result of the four limitations (Capability, Communication, Assumption, and >Perception) for which the soul is not responsible. He also states that the >soul can continue to grow and learn even though it is now dead. > >The story ends just before judgement is passed, and the questor is left to >decide what judgement would be appropriate. > > > Coron's decision would depend on what sort of growth the soul remains capable of. An old Cedonian proverb is "Some lessons can only be learned by the living." The difference in perspective between mortal and immortal means that some things can only be truly appreciated by experiencing them as a mortal. Cedonians believe that the purpose of life is to overcome your limitations. Coron and Lucia would not accept as a general rule the proposition that a soul is not responsible for actions that are the result of its limitations. The only exceptions are the mentally retarded and the insane, because the soul is not responsible for the limitations of the material body. Finally, just some quick notes about the Cedonian view of reincarnation. An incarnate soul has no access to memories of its prior lives, except under very, very rare circumstances. Certain aspects of personality do seem to leak over from incarnation to incarnation, as do things like talents, be they artistic, magical, musical, or scholastic. When a soul becomes disincarnate, it regains access to all of its past memories. The soul prior to its first incarnation has no gender, it is totally neuter. The gender of its first incarnation is assigned at random. After the first incarnation, souls, while technically having no physical sexual characteristics, start to develop what might be called a mental gender. Subsequent incarnations are usually in bodies of the same gender as a soul's first incarnation. There are exceptions to this. If Coron and Lucia judge that a soul would benefit from a change in perspective, they will reincarnate it in a body of differing gender. Generally, the soul will adapt to the change, but sometimes, especially after many incarnations as one gender, the soul doesn't 'fit' quite right in the new incarnation. According to Cedonian Church doctrine, this is why there are transsexuals: they are simply souls of one mental gender incarnated into bodies of the opposite physical gender. After achieving final judgment, a soul forms itself a body in the Dreaming. It usually adopts a body of the gender that matches its mental gender, but some souls choose to adopt forms which are neuter or even hermaphrodite, and some prefer to remain disembodied. The gods do not interfere in this choice. Andrew >Jefferson (Exquaestio) >http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
I just had a look at the Cedonian Determinants page. Cedonian religion is rated with a sophistication of Poor (-2). Based on the discussion in this thread, I just can't see that. Shouldn't it be at least Fair (0), and wouldn't that affect the balance of the other Humanities? Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote: > I just had a look at the Cedonian Determinants page. Cedonian religion is > rated with a sophistication of Poor (-2). Based on the discussion in this > thread, I just can't see that. Shouldn't it be at least Fair (0), and > wouldn't that affect the balance of the other Humanities? You're right that the sophistication for religion should be higher. As to balance, Juuso said in a recent post (11/28/2004) that the "sums to +2" rule doesn't necessarily apply to the Humanities determinants. The numbers on the website really reflect the first Cedonian player, who's not been around for a very, very long time. The society has evolved somewhat. For religion, I think the new numbers should be: Tolerance: Fair (0) Prevelance: Fair (0) Diversity: Poor (-2) Sophistication: Good (+1) I see no need to make any changes to the other cultural determinants at this time. On a different note, should the Cedonian Economic determinants have recovered to their pre-war levels by themselves, or do I need to use a strategic action? It's been about a decade since the end of the Civil War, after all. Andrew > Jefferson (Exquaestio) > http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > For religion, I think the new numbers should be: > > Tolerance: Fair (0) > Prevelance: Fair (0) > Diversity: Poor (-2) > Sophistication: Good (+1) These are fine, I think. > On a different note, should the Cedonian Economic determinants have > recovered to their pre-war levels by themselves, or do I need to use a > strategic action? It's been about a decade since the end of the Civil > War, after all. You can assume that they have returned to the pre-war levels. juuso ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
