The economy of Kaeir The level of economic activity in Kaeir is quite high and sophisticated for the economies of the the Midsea, especially given Kaeir's size. The sea of course plays a central role in Kaeir. A high level trade passes tgrough Port Kaeir, thanks to its position on the North-South trade routes of the Midsea. The growing stability of Port Kaeir, cut off from the conflicts of Taltheran, and preferred by many as an alternative to the points of Mir, has made it the centre of Northern Midsea trade. Kaeirean efforts to open up new trade routes to the Rim mountains, the Calarnar and elsewhere have stimulated trade, and inspired a generation of Kaeirean youth to spurn the military life for that of the sea. Aside from commerce, hundreds of sea-villages in Kaeir are involved in the fishing trade in the Kaeirean Strait, and amongst the eastern shores of Celtehar and Celtelath, deep sea fishing and whaling in the Midsea. Finally, the third most important industry of Kaeir is that of agriculture. The majority of farmland is organised into large plantations worked by slaves and controlled by noble Houses and nouve riche merchant Houses. Large portions of Kaeir though are farmed on an individual basis, or by the collective village-based indigenous method. The plantation method is more widespread in the islands, where it was first introduced after the revolution. Its introduction into Tirmaeir is certain though, given the fact that Tirmaeiri agriculture could make Kaeir self-dependent for food. The plantation method has had three major economic impacts on Kaeir: firstly, a range of more exotic fruit, vegetables and grains are now grown in Kaeir, some of which is exported. Secondly, the role of slavery has grown more important in the economy, with a corresponding growth in demand. Lastly, the prospects for upward social mobility has dramatically increased. Slaves may earn their freedom, freemen may enter into commerce, successful merchants may establish plantations, and both the successful merchant or estate owner may gain noble status and thereby enter into the Republic's elite. The consolidation of villages into plantations or the establishment of estates in the wilder districts creates further demand for labour beyond that which the local peasantry can supply. In turn this fuels demand for slaves. The ideological attitude of the Republic towards slavery, give the origin of many of its leaders, prevents a tightening of restrictions on the rights of slaves. Overall, this complex social pattern acts as a great engine for ambition enterprise and initiative. The native Kaeirean villagers of the islands stand isolated and alone, the outcasts in an immigrant society where power lies in the hands of a dozen powerful individuals and the clans and organisations that created them. Even the native Kaeiran Houses, whilst sympathetic to their position, can only give preference in employment to them, given the constant economic pressure of the rivalries between the Houses. ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: > The plantation method has had three major economic impacts on Kaeir: > firstly, a range of more exotic fruit, vegetables and grains are now grown > in Kaeir, some of which is exported. Secondly, the role of slavery has > grown more important in the economy, with a corresponding growth in demand. > Lastly, the prospects for upward social mobility has dramatically increased. > Slaves may earn their freedom, freemen may enter into commerce, successful > merchants may establish plantations, and both the successful merchant or > estate owner may gain noble status and thereby enter into the Republic's > elite. The consolidation of villages into plantations or the establishment > of estates in the wilder districts creates further demand for labour beyond > that which the local peasantry can supply. In turn this fuels demand for > slaves. The ideological attitude of the Republic towards slavery, give the > origin of many of its leaders, prevents a tightening of restrictions on the > rights of slaves. Overall, this complex social pattern acts as a great > engine for ambition enterprise and initiative. The Cult of Demerhaze in the MidSea is strongly anti-slavery and anti-serfdom. While in the past the cult has been "content" with assassinating abusive slaveowners and overseers, in Kaeir recently there have been attempts to make plantation slavery uneconomic. Orchards and fields have been burned and wells and irrigation systems have been damaged on slave-holding properties. So far the economic effects have been little more than a pinprick, but the use of this tactic seems to be increasing. (The worship of Demerhaze would have been popular when Kaeir was under pirate rule, and the republic might not have gotten around to officially outlawing it yet.) Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> -----Original Message----- > From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] On Behalf Of > Jefferson Wilson > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 3:30 AM > To: celandra@phoenyx.net > Subject: Re: [Cel] The Economy of Kaeir > > Ibrahim wrote: > > Overall, this complex social pattern acts as a great > > engine for ambition enterprise and initiative. > > The Cult of Demerhaze in the MidSea is strongly anti-slavery and anti- > serfdom. > While in the past the cult has been "content" with assassinating abusive > slaveowners and overseers, in Kaeir recently there have been attempts to > make > plantation slavery uneconomic. Orchards and fields have been burned and > wells > and irrigation systems have been damaged on slave-holding properties. So > far > the economic effects have been little more than a pinprick, but the use of > this tactic seems to be increasing. (The worship of Demerhaze would have > been > popular when Kaeir was under pirate rule, and the republic might not have > gotten around to officially outlawing it yet.) > > Jefferson (Exquaestio) [Ib] Given the economy of the Midsea, I would doubt how successful a religion or organisation could be if it was anti-slavery. This is not the Atlantic slavery of pre-civil war America, but the Mediterranean slavery of the Roman Empire. As such, slavery would exist in the majority of societies, especially the more sophisticated ones. Because of this, many would have economic interests in slavery (traders, nobles with landed estates etc, kings...), who would naturally oppose movements they saw as not just attacking their economic interests but also undermining an economic cornerstone of their societies (depending on the level of importance of slavery in that particular society). I imagine such beliefs would be a major disadvantage to the Cult of Demerhaze in most Midsea societies, where they might be viewed as dangerously radical and anti-social. Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: > Because of this, many would have economic interests in slavery (traders, > nobles with landed estates etc, kings...), who would naturally oppose > movements they saw as not just attacking their economic interests but also > undermining an economic cornerstone of their societies (depending on the > level of importance of slavery in that particular society). I imagine such > beliefs would be a major disadvantage to the Cult of Demerhaze in most > Midsea societies, where they might be viewed as dangerously radical and > anti-social. Yep. However, Qaiyore does have the horse collar, which makes horses more efficient than human slaves for most purposes. It won't make this attitude prevalent, but it does make it possible. Jefferson (Exquestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> -----Original Message----- > From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] On Behalf Of > Ibrahim > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:33 AM > To: celandra@phoenyx.net > Subject: Re: [Cel] The Economy of Kaeir > > [Ib] Given the economy of the Midsea, I would doubt how successful a > religion or organisation could be if it was anti-slavery. This is not the > Atlantic slavery of pre-civil war America, but the Mediterranean slavery > of > the Roman Empire. As such, slavery would exist in the majority of > societies, especially the more sophisticated ones. > > Because of this, many would have economic interests in slavery (traders, > nobles with landed estates etc, kings...), who would naturally oppose > movements they saw as not just attacking their economic interests but also > undermining an economic cornerstone of their societies (depending on the > level of importance of slavery in that particular society). > > Ibrahim What do you all think of this? How widespread is slavery in the Midsea? I personally think it would be significant, given that the Midsea is at a Bronze-Iron age level of development. The only factors that would significantly affect slavery would be: - population levels. An abundance of cheap labour would undermine the importance of slavery, whereas a society lacking in labour would utilise slavery to fill the void. This would be the demand factor. - religion. Certainly in any society where the dominant religion is anti-slavery, then it probably wouldn't exist. However, that would pit a religion like the cult of Demerhaze against any agricultural "elite", who might benefit from slavery. - supply. Where do the slaves come from? I'd imagine from the less developed societies on the edge of "civilisation" in the Midsea, probably brought to slave markets to be sold, by a middle man. So for example, perhaps Kaeirean slaves are purchased from Aixelsydanese slave-traders who obtain their slaves from the wilder lands to the east of Aixelsydan or Mir. - magic. Have any magic-using societies been able to develop magical alternatives or labour-reducing enhancements? - conditions of slavery. What are the conditions under which slavery operates in a particular society? Are there rights or responsibilities on the part of the owner or the slave? Is there a possibility for emancipation (by the owner, or by the slave purchasing his freedom)? Or is it the more brutal variety (like that of Atlantic slavery)? So, what do you all think? This is a fairly significant issue, I think, as it would affect the economic structure of the majority of Midsea societies, depending on which way they are. Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: > This is a fairly significant issue, I think, as it would affect the economic > structure of the majority of Midsea societies, depending on which way they > are. Definitely. > What do you all think of this? How widespread is slavery in the Midsea? I > personally think it would be significant, given that the Midsea is at a > Bronze-Iron age level of development. I agree that slavery is probably widespread and significant. However, I don't think comparisons to the Bronze Age are approprite. The level of technology seems to be roughly that of 14th century Europe, 11th century Persia, or 9th century China. > The only factors that would significantly affect slavery would be: > > - population levels. An abundance of cheap labour would undermine the > importance of slavery, whereas a society lacking in labour would utilise > slavery to fill the void. This would be the demand factor. Population levels have little to do with it. What matters is social stability and warfare. Expanding societies and those engaged in warfare can acquire slaves cheaply. In stable societies slaves don't reproduce as well and become outnumbered by the free poor. In expanding Rome, slaves were a major economic factor. In stable China, that factor was minor. Using this standard, Kaeir would have a large slave population, Mir would have a tiny one, and the Free Cities would fall somewhere into the middle ground. > - religion. Certainly in any society where the dominant religion is > anti-slavery, then it probably wouldn't exist. However, that would pit a > religion like the cult of Demerhaze against any agricultural "elite", who > might benefit from slavery. From what I see, there aren't any dominant religions that are anti-slavery. In areas where Demerhaze is dominant she isn't anti-slavery. In areas where she's anti-slavery she isn't dominant. (Exquaestio doesn't have a stance on slavery at this point.) > - supply. Where do the slaves come from? I'd imagine from the less > developed societies on the edge of "civilisation" in the Midsea, probably > brought to slave markets to be sold, by a middle man. So for example, > perhaps Kaeirean slaves are purchased from Aixelsydanese slave-traders who > obtain their slaves from the wilder lands to the east of Aixelsydan or Mir. I can see that. However, such a supply will not come near to meeting the demand. European hunger for slaves (post-16th century) more than decimated Africa, even though those slaves were going to areas tiny in comparison with Africa as a whole. > - magic. & technology > Have any magic-using societies been able to develop magical > alternatives or labour-reducing enhancements? As far as magic goes only Mir seems to have the ability, and their population is such that they don't need them. I've never been sure about the presence of devices like water wheels. My assumption has been that they're present, but not particularly prevalent or efficient (Roman model). > - conditions of slavery. What are the conditions under which slavery > operates in a particular society? Are there rights or responsibilities on > the part of the owner or the slave? Is there a possibility for emancipation > (by the owner, or by the slave purchasing his freedom)? Or is it the more > brutal variety (like that of Atlantic slavery)? As profits from slave labor become more difficult to acquire, conditions of slavery tend to steadily decline. In the late Roman period, for example, farm slaves became so expensive that they only way their owners could profit was by feeding them so little that they were unable to reproduce. The Roman "solution" to this problem was the establishment of serfdom. Also: - ease of escape. Slavery works best when slaves are separated from their homelands and require some effort to get back. Slavery in borderlands tends to be minor because slaves can escape across the border to their own people. Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote: > Ibrahim wrote: > > >>This is a fairly significant issue, I think, as it would affect the economic >>structure of the majority of Midsea societies, depending on which way they >>are. > > > Definitely. > > >>What do you all think of this? How widespread is slavery in the Midsea? I >>personally think it would be significant, given that the Midsea is at a >>Bronze-Iron age level of development. > > > I agree that slavery is probably widespread and significant. However, I don't > think comparisons to the Bronze Age are approprite. The level of technology > seems to be roughly that of 14th century Europe, 11th century Persia, or 9th > century China. > I agree with that assessment, with the caveat that the level is not exactly analagous. > >>The only factors that would significantly affect slavery would be: >> >>- population levels. An abundance of cheap labour would undermine the >>importance of slavery, whereas a society lacking in labour would utilise >>slavery to fill the void. This would be the demand factor. > > > Population levels have little to do with it. What matters is social stability > and warfare. Expanding societies and those engaged in warfare can acquire > slaves cheaply. In stable societies slaves don't reproduce as well and become > outnumbered by the free poor. In expanding Rome, slaves were a major economic > factor. In stable China, that factor was minor. Using this standard, Kaeir > would have a large slave population, Mir would have a tiny one, and the Free > Cities would fall somewhere into the middle ground. > In its earlier days, the Cedonian Empire relied heavily on slave labor. As the Empire matured, its economy and society developed, and slavery became less and less important. Interestingly, the largest single slaveholder throughout Cedonia's history was always the Imperial Government. Government-owned slaves played a crucial role in the administration of the Empire and in the construction of Imperial public works projects. These slaves were always freed after 30 years of imperial service; many continued working in their old jobs as freedmen. For privately owned slaves, there were not many ways out of slavery, besides death. Generally, when a slave-owner died, he would free the most senior slaves in his will. Some slave-owners would manumit their slaves as a reward for loyal service. Slaves who could save enough money were allowed by Imperial Law to buy themselves from their masters at cost. Many slaves who wanted freedom took a different path. Imperial Law specified that anyone could volunteer for service with the legions or a city watch at any time. If a slave wanted to enlist in the legions, his owner could not prevent it, and with the completion of 25 years of service, the slave would be a full citizen with voting rights, not simply a freedman. Slaves who volunteered to join a city watch had a similar deal, but only had to complete six years of service. However, surviving 25 years in the legions was far more likely than surviving 6 years in a city watch. Currently, there are very few slaves in Cedonia. The population is large enough for slaveholding to be unprofitable. Indentured servitude for a fixed period is far more common, and is heavily regulated by the government. One may also find debt-slavery, but again, this is heavily regulated. > >>- religion. Certainly in any society where the dominant religion is >>anti-slavery, then it probably wouldn't exist. However, that would pit a >>religion like the cult of Demerhaze against any agricultural "elite", who >>might benefit from slavery. > > > From what I see, there aren't any dominant religions that are anti-slavery. > In areas where Demerhaze is dominant she isn't anti-slavery. In areas where > she's anti-slavery she isn't dominant. (Exquaestio doesn't have a stance on > slavery at this point.) > Not strictly true. Demerhaze is both dominant and anti-slavery in Kasovia. This is largely because in the days when the Cedonians still used large numbers of slaves, many came from Kasovia.> >> Have any magic-using societies been able to develop magical >>alternatives or labour-reducing enhancements? > > > As far as magic goes only Mir seems to have the ability, and their population > is such that they don't need them. > > I've never been sure about the presence of devices like water wheels. My > assumption has been that they're present, but not particularly prevalent or > efficient (Roman model). > IIRC, there was a player who was pushing his society to develop technologically. While that hasn't really gone anywhere, I think that the MidSea could possibly see a minor industrial revolution in a few decades if someone invents an improved water wheel. In Cedonia, the city of Caladyn was founded at a large waterfall on the Imperial River, where river traffic had to portage. One of these days, someone is going to look at those falls and think, "Hmm." Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > Jefferson wrote: > >>I agree that slavery is probably widespread and significant. However, I don't >>think comparisons to the Bronze Age are approprite. The level of technology >>seems to be roughly that of 14th century Europe, 11th century Persia, or 9th >>century China. > > I agree with that assessment, with the caveat that the level is not > exactly analagous. I like "analogous" (though certainly not "exact"). I think I commented in another post that metalworking seems to be slightly retarded and shipbuilding and commerce slightly advanced. Health care is also advanced (mainly due to the presence of magic), and gunpowder doesn't exist at all. I'm sure there are other differences as well, but the historical analogy makes a good starting point. Qaiyore seems ripe to break in any number of directions. Interesting things are happening with social systems, magic, and technology. The gods are more active than they've been in centuries. The more civilized nations are pushing into barbarian lands in all directions, and voyages of world exploration have begun. Anything can happen at this point. Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> -----Original Message----- > From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] On Behalf Of > Jefferson Wilson > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 3:30 AM > To: celandra@phoenyx.net > Subject: Re: [Cel] The Economy of Kaeir > > (The worship of Demerhaze would have been popular when Kaeir was under > pirate rule, and the republic might not have gotten around to officially > outlawing it yet.) [Ib] Hmmm... an interesting point, I hadn't given much thought to the cults of piratic Kaeir. The only aspect of Kaeirean religion I have addressed so far is that the native religion of the countryside is a primitive monotheism (the native Kaeirean islanders having been isolated for quite some time), distinct from the swarming multitude of cults in Port Kaeir, which would certainly include the cult of Demerhaze (though it would be difficult for it to be widespread in the Republic, especially given the spread of the Millat Shanari). However, if the Demerhazites are anti-slavery, and vocal in their criticism of it, then they probably would attract negative attention from the economic powers in Kaeir. Though as for outlawing religions, that's certainly not on the Senate's mind yet. Interesting times indeed. Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> The sea of course plays a central role in Kaeir. A > high level trade passes > tgrough Port Kaeir, thanks to its position on the > North-South trade routes > of the Midsea. The growing stability of Port Kaeir, > cut off from the > conflicts of Taltheran, and preferred by many as an > alternative to the > points of Mir, has made it the centre of Northern > Midsea trade. While some societies may not particularly care for Mir cultural or politcally very few societies avoid Mir when it come to trade. Mir is a big spender. Food, spieces, dyes, ect. Also Mir provides several expencive items both food and magical items, and a few other resources. Not to mention that Mir is stable which helps trade. so while Talishara is not the center of trade for the area. It would not be avoided, and Mirabalpur is a major trade center. Jason Heaps __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: > The plantation method is more widespread in the islands, where it was first > introduced after the revolution. Its introduction into Tirmaeir is certain > though, given the fact that Tirmaeiri agriculture could make Kaeir > self-dependent for food. I just realized that there's a problem with pushing plantation agriculture into Tirmaeir. Where are the new slaves going to come from? When Kaeir was at war they could get new slaves from their conquests, but things are a bit more difficult at present. You have an increasing demand without a supply. Historically this situation has gone two ways. First, the rights of the lower classes can be reduced. Freeholders become serfs, serfs become slaves, and slaves lose what few rights they had. Second, the creation of new free holdings makes the free classes more powerful and decreases the power of the great landholders. Interesting times for Kaeir. Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
