The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age
of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. After age 18,
Sedonians who can afford it may attend the University of Thalsedon.
Full Scholarships are available to students who are bright but poor, and
the Sedonian State Church pays half the fees of students who commit to
joining an Order. The University also reduces the tuition fees of
students who agree to remain at the University after taking their degree
and teach.
Overall functional literacy rates in Sedonia are in the 55-60% range,
but nearly all Sedonians can at least write their own names. The Order
of Lucia places importance on literacy and numeracy. In rural Sedonia,
most families have a hard time seeing the value of literacy, but they
keenly grasp the importance of being numerate, especially when it comes
time to sell the harvest, or the tax assessor comes around. In the
rising merchant classes of the cities, literacy approaches 85-90%.
The University offers three levels of degree, roughly corresponding to
our bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees. Generally speaking, as
one rises through the University system, a student moves from the
general to the specific.
Bachelor's degrees are given in liberal arts, theology, civil
engineering, and natural philosophy. Most children of noble families
take a liberal arts degree: they learn a little bit about everything,
but not a lot about anything. Generally, only students intending to
enter the Church or students who come from mercantile families pursue
higher degrees, although there are exceptions: The Duke of Caladyn is a
Master of History, while his son, the Count of Rochlyn, holds a Master's
in Political Philosophy. A student's bachelor degree influences which
specific higher degree he or she may try to achieve.
A liberal arts degree may lead to a master's in any of the following:
* Art
* Music
* History
* Drama
* Sedonian Literature
* Modern Languages
* Ancient Languages
* Culinary Arts
* Mathematics
* Philosophy
* Political Philosophy (Political science + economics, more or less)
* Library Science
A civil engineering degree may lead to a master's in any of the following:
* Architecture
* Road & Bridge-building
* Mines
* Hydraulic Engineering
* Naval Architecture
* Military Architecture
A natural philosophy degree may lead to a master's in any of the following:
* Botany
* Zoology
* Mathematics
* Astronomy/Astrology
* Geology
* Geography
* Anatomy
* Alchemy/Metallurgy (also includes elements of Physics)
A theology degree may lead to a master's in any of the categories under
liberal arts, Botany, Anatomy, or Comparative Theology.
Doctoral degrees are offered in all of the above categories. In
addition, doctoral degrees are offered in Law, Veterinary Medicine, and
Medicine.
The University is open to both men and women, and students from any
country are admitted, provided they can pass a proficiency test in
Sedonian, and can pay their fees.
Andrew
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: >The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age >of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. After age 18, >Sedonians who can afford it may attend the University of Thalsedon. >Full Scholarships are available to students who are bright but poor, and >the Sedonian State Church pays half the fees of students who commit to >joining an Order. The University also reduces the tuition fees of >students who agree to remain at the University after taking their degree >and teach. > >Overall functional literacy rates in Sedonia are in the 55-60% range, >but nearly all Sedonians can at least write their own names. The Order >of Lucia places importance on literacy and numeracy. In rural Sedonia, >most families have a hard time seeing the value of literacy, but they >keenly grasp the importance of being numerate, especially when it comes >time to sell the harvest, or the tax assessor comes around. In the >rising merchant classes of the cities, literacy approaches 85-90%. > >The University offers three levels of degree, roughly corresponding to >our bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees. Generally speaking, as >one rises through the University system, a student moves from the >general to the specific. > >Bachelor's degrees are given in liberal arts, theology, civil >engineering, and natural philosophy. Most children of noble families >take a liberal arts degree: they learn a little bit about everything, >but not a lot about anything. Generally, only students intending to >enter the Church or students who come from mercantile families pursue >higher degrees, although there are exceptions: The Duke of Caladyn is a >Master of History, while his son, the Count of Rochlyn, holds a Master's >in Political Philosophy. A student's bachelor degree influences which >specific higher degree he or she may try to achieve. > >A liberal arts degree may lead to a master's in any of the following: > * Art > * Music > * History > * Drama > * Sedonian Literature > * Modern Languages > * Ancient Languages > * Culinary Arts > * Mathematics > * Philosophy > * Political Philosophy (Political science + economics, more or less) > * Library Science > >A civil engineering degree may lead to a master's in any of the following: > * Architecture > * Road & Bridge-building > * Mines > * Hydraulic Engineering > * Naval Architecture > * Military Architecture > >A natural philosophy degree may lead to a master's in any of the following: > * Botany > * Zoology > * Mathematics > * Astronomy/Astrology > * Geology > * Geography > * Anatomy > * Alchemy/Metallurgy (also includes elements of Physics) > >A theology degree may lead to a master's in any of the categories under >liberal arts, Botany, Anatomy, or Comparative Theology. > >Doctoral degrees are offered in all of the above categories. In >addition, doctoral degrees are offered in Law, Veterinary Medicine, and >Medicine. > >The University is open to both men and women, and students from any >country are admitted, provided they can pass a proficiency test in >Sedonian, and can pay their fees. > >Andrew >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > > > > An interesting post Andrew, but perhaps it is a little too sophisticated for this period of Qaiyore (even Cedonia)? Education has always been a rapid means of social movement and progression. If Cedonia is an at least partly feudal society, then restrictions (official or otherwise) would exist on social movement. Tradition would also be another restriction - the family, cultural and social pressure for a bright boy to follow his father's occupation of farming or piggery would also easily crush his aspirations for learning. Basic economics would prevent a huge number of peasants from acquiring much if any schooling, especially peasents at the subsistence farming level. And surely there would be some class prejudice both ways against the lower levels of society gaining education. The well-to-do might look down upon or even be hostile towards an "uppity" peasant who doesn't know his place in the world (even a noble-born priest or professor, for example, could easily carry such prejudices), and similiarly, the family and peers of a peasant with academic or otherwise aspirations would easily disparage him for rejecting his own people and being "uppity". Education to both boys and girls is highly advanced - perhaps a little too progressive for Qaiyore at this point in time? Perhaps it is more readily available to the upper classes, and for those women who have joined some kind of religious order (much like the educated nun of medieval europe)? Take the University for example - why is it free? Subsidised universities in our own histories were generally subsidised to produce educated public servants and military officers (though nowdays it is to produce high-skilled workers to fill the needs of a modern economy), unless they were private institutions set up by a charitable and wealthy benefactor. What does the Sedonian government expect from the University? How "free" is knowledge, especially religious knowledge, in Cedonia? Is there a monopoly on any of secular or religious knowledge? Is the education provided by the orders limited to people of a certain religion, domination or even ethnic group? And continuing this theme - certain bodies of knowledge would be jealously guarded by guilds or quasi-professional associations, where the admittance of new members (apprentices or students) is limited by economic concerns (like preventing an oversupply of practitioners, for example), and with preference given to students/apprentices with family/political/other connections. Just a few thoughts of my own on education in Qaiyore in general. Education in our own world has only become progressive in the West in the last 50 years really, before that it was restricted to a variety of degrees and by a variety of concerns (class, status, wealth, religion, ethnicity, even politics). Even though most Earth civilisations have had their golden ages of learning (the Greeks, the Romans, the Ummayyad Caliphate, the Renaissance, various periods in ancient India and China, etc etc, and of course our own time), huge portions of human history have been overwhelmed with ignorance and superstition in various types of Dark Ages (decline of the Roman Empire, the censoring of texts and the burning of the Alexandria Library during the struggle between the early Christian creeds, the Mongol sack of Baghdad, the 15th century Chinese withdrawal from the world, ), and it has generally been a cyclical pattern (good-bad-good......). Sounds cynical, but that is history. It has only been in this last half-century that the power-wielders and the knowledge-holders have increasingly shared their power and knowledge with the majority in their societies. My overall impression of your article on Sedonian education was that it was too good for Sedonia, let alone Qaiyore, in this period. Cheers, Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
ibrahim wrote: > Andrew Janssen wrote: > > >>The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age >>of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. After age 18, >>Sedonians who can afford it may attend the University of Thalsedon. >>Full Scholarships are available to students who are bright but poor, and >>the Sedonian State Church pays half the fees of students who commit to >>joining an Order. The University also reduces the tuition fees of >>students who agree to remain at the University after taking their degree >>and teach. >> >>Overall functional literacy rates in Sedonia are in the 55-60% range, >>but nearly all Sedonians can at least write their own names. The Order >>of Lucia places importance on literacy and numeracy. In rural Sedonia, >>most families have a hard time seeing the value of literacy, but they >>keenly grasp the importance of being numerate, especially when it comes >>time to sell the harvest, or the tax assessor comes around. In the >>rising merchant classes of the cities, literacy approaches 85-90%. >> >>The University offers three levels of degree, roughly corresponding to >>our bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees. Generally speaking, as >>one rises through the University system, a student moves from the >>general to the specific. >> >>Bachelor's degrees are given in liberal arts, theology, civil >>engineering, and natural philosophy. Most children of noble families >>take a liberal arts degree: they learn a little bit about everything, >>but not a lot about anything. Generally, only students intending to >>enter the Church or students who come from mercantile families pursue >>higher degrees, although there are exceptions: The Duke of Caladyn is a >>Master of History, while his son, the Count of Rochlyn, holds a Master's >>in Political Philosophy. A student's bachelor degree influences which >>specific higher degree he or she may try to achieve. >> >>A liberal arts degree may lead to a master's in any of the following: >> * Art >> * Music >> * History >> * Drama >> * Sedonian Literature >> * Modern Languages >> * Ancient Languages >> * Culinary Arts >> * Mathematics >> * Philosophy >> * Political Philosophy (Political science + economics, more or less) >> * Library Science >> >>A civil engineering degree may lead to a master's in any of the following: >> * Architecture >> * Road & Bridge-building >> * Mines >> * Hydraulic Engineering >> * Naval Architecture >> * Military Architecture >> >>A natural philosophy degree may lead to a master's in any of the following: >> * Botany >> * Zoology >> * Mathematics >> * Astronomy/Astrology >> * Geology >> * Geography >> * Anatomy >> * Alchemy/Metallurgy (also includes elements of Physics) >> >>A theology degree may lead to a master's in any of the categories under >>liberal arts, Botany, Anatomy, or Comparative Theology. >> >>Doctoral degrees are offered in all of the above categories. In >>addition, doctoral degrees are offered in Law, Veterinary Medicine, and >>Medicine. >> >>The University is open to both men and women, and students from any >>country are admitted, provided they can pass a proficiency test in >>Sedonian, and can pay their fees. >> >>Andrew >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. >> >> >> >> > > An interesting post Andrew, but perhaps it is a little too sophisticated > for this period of Qaiyore (even Cedonia)? Education has always been a > rapid means of social movement and progression. > > If Cedonia is an at least partly feudal society, then restrictions > (official or otherwise) would exist on social movement. Tradition would > also be another restriction - the family, cultural and social pressure > for a bright boy to follow his father's occupation of farming or piggery > would also easily crush his aspirations for learning. Sedonia is not, precisely, feudal. I've been thinking about this for some time. The titled nobility arose out of the early Imperial administration. The title that I usually translate as "Duke" is perhaps better represented by "Imperial Governor". In theory, the titled nobility are administrators appointed by the Emperor to act in his name. In practice, titles are usually inherited, but the law, to this day, allows the Emperor to name whomever he wants to a position which falls vacant. Empress Yzara's father and grandfather both removed several incompetent barons and counts and replaced them with more able members of the merchant classes. > Basic economics would prevent a huge number of peasants from acquiring > much if any schooling, especially peasents at the subsistence farming level. > > And surely there would be some class prejudice both ways against the > lower levels of society gaining education. The well-to-do might look > down upon or even be hostile towards an "uppity" peasant who doesn't > know his place in the world (even a noble-born priest or professor, for > example, could easily carry such prejudices), and similiarly, the family > and peers of a peasant with academic or otherwise aspirations would > easily disparage him for rejecting his own people and being "uppity". > > Education to both boys and girls is highly advanced - perhaps a little > too progressive for Qaiyore at this point in time? Perhaps it is more > readily available to the upper classes, and for those women who have > joined some kind of religious order (much like the educated nun of > medieval europe)? The upper classes are the ones who take the most advantage of it, but the Order of Lucia has a religious imperative to provide education. Education, however, is not *mandatory*. Sedonians are more flexible with regards to social mobility, in some respects, than Europeans from a comparable period would be. > Take the University for example - why is it free? Subsidised > universities in our own histories were generally subsidised to produce > educated public servants and military officers (though nowdays it is to > produce high-skilled workers to fill the needs of a modern economy), > unless they were private institutions set up by a charitable and wealthy > benefactor. What does the Sedonian government expect from the University? The government expects, in large part, civil servants. While nobles are the ones who generally take liberal arts-type degrees, and future clerics take theology and natural philosophy courses, the scions of merchant families gravitate most heavily to civil engineering and law. Many merchant families also gravitate to languages. The theology faculty is largely Church-funded, while the liberal arts faculty is largely funded by the nobles, and the government subsidizes the engineering school and the natural philosophers. The Sedonian government has a constant need of engineers trained in the construction and maintenance of roads, bridges, aqueducts, cisterns, and dams. > How "free" is knowledge, especially religious knowledge, in Cedonia? Is > there a monopoly on any of secular or religious knowledge? Is the > education provided by the orders limited to people of a certain > religion, domination or even ethnic group? Religious knowledge--theology--is the most jealously guarded. Apart from mandatory for all students classes in Modern MidSea Religions and Ethics, most theology courses are restricted to students entering an Order. > And continuing this theme - certain bodies of knowledge would be > jealously guarded by guilds or quasi-professional associations, where > the admittance of new members (apprentices or students) is limited by > economic concerns (like preventing an oversupply of practitioners, for > example), and with preference given to students/apprentices with > family/political/other connections. > > Just a few thoughts of my own on education in Qaiyore in general. > Education in our own world has only become progressive in the West in > the last 50 years really, before that it was restricted to a variety of > degrees and by a variety of concerns (class, status, wealth, religion, > ethnicity, even politics). Even though most Earth civilisations have > had their golden ages of learning (the Greeks, the Romans, the Ummayyad > Caliphate, the Renaissance, various periods in ancient India and China, > etc etc, and of course our own time), huge portions of human history > have been overwhelmed with ignorance and superstition in various types > of Dark Ages (decline of the Roman Empire, the censoring of texts and > the burning of the Alexandria Library during the struggle between the > early Christian creeds, the Mongol sack of Baghdad, the 15th century > Chinese withdrawal from the world, ), and it has generally been a > cyclical pattern (good-bad-good......). > > Sounds cynical, but that is history. It has only been in this last > half-century that the power-wielders and the knowledge-holders have > increasingly shared their power and knowledge with the majority in their > societies. My overall impression of your article on Sedonian education > was that it was too good for Sedonia, let alone Qaiyore, in this period. Part of the reason for the development of education in Sedonia is, as I said, the Lucian Order. Part of their mission, as they see it, is "to illuminate the world". This is generally taken to mean educating it. Does this cause conflicts with other groups? You bet your sweet bippy it does. Also, I should note that the various advanced degrees within a category are less compartmentalized than they seem. Generally, a first-level degree is awarded after three years, and a second-level degree takes anywhere from one to three years more. A third-level degree is another two to three years. Finally, the educational system described above was largely pre-war: one of the effects of the Sinari and Civil Wars on the University was a loss of students and a shifting of resources to the civil engineering courses at the expense of the more liberal arts. Andrew. > Cheers, > > Ibrahim > > > > ================================ > Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer > ================================ > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: >Part of the reason for the development of education in Sedonia is, as I >said, the Lucian Order. Part of their mission, as they see it, is "to >illuminate the world". This is generally taken to mean educating it. >Does this cause conflicts with other groups? You bet your sweet bippy it >does. > >Also, I should note that the various advanced degrees within a category >are less compartmentalized than they seem. Generally, a first-level >degree is awarded after three years, and a second-level degree takes >anywhere from one to three years more. A third-level degree is another >two to three years. > >Finally, the educational system described above was largely pre-war: one >of the effects of the Sinari and Civil Wars on the University was a loss >of students and a shifting of resources to the civil engineering courses >at the expense of the more liberal arts. > >Andrew. > > > > I stand corrected Andrew - note it was just constructive feedback that I offered, not unbridled savage criticism - though that can be provided if requested ; ) Does the Lucian Order parallel the Jesuits etc, in some respects (the intellectual aspects more than the Count-Reformation parts)? Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
ibrahim wrote: > Andrew Janssen wrote: > > >>Part of the reason for the development of education in Sedonia is, as I >>said, the Lucian Order. Part of their mission, as they see it, is "to >>illuminate the world". This is generally taken to mean educating it. >>Does this cause conflicts with other groups? You bet your sweet bippy it >>does. >> >>Also, I should note that the various advanced degrees within a category >>are less compartmentalized than they seem. Generally, a first-level >>degree is awarded after three years, and a second-level degree takes >>anywhere from one to three years more. A third-level degree is another >>two to three years. >> >>Finally, the educational system described above was largely pre-war: one >>of the effects of the Sinari and Civil Wars on the University was a loss >>of students and a shifting of resources to the civil engineering courses >>at the expense of the more liberal arts. >> >>Andrew. >> >> >> >> > > I stand corrected Andrew - note it was just constructive feedback that I > offered, not unbridled savage criticism - though that can be provided if > requested ; ) Sorry if I came across as grumpy. :) > Does the Lucian Order parallel the Jesuits etc, in some respects (the > intellectual aspects more than the Count-Reformation parts)? Definitely. Many in the Order firmly believe that widespread education and enlightenment on a societal scale is necessary for justice to thrive. Things like the Second Ice Demon Invasion, the collapse of the Empire, the Sinari War, and the Civil War are merely setbacks on the long march of progress, according to some of the more enthusiastic Lucians--although the older and wiser members of the Order are well aware that progress is not inevitable. It is a core belief of the Orders of the Sedonian Church that since the Creator cannot be contacted in the Dreaming, the only way to understand It is to study Its works in the material world. On a different note, nobility in Sedonia doesn't work like the English peerage--it's much more similar to French nobility in the ancien regime: All persons with titles(Baron, Count, Duke) are noble, but not all nobles have titles. The titles are attached to regions of land, and while normally the title passes from father to son, the Emperor can assign the title as he chooses. The current holder of a title may also sell the title and all privileges attached to it to someone else. The seller loses the title, but retains noble status, while the buyer gains noble status if he didn't already have it. Certain imperial offices also ennoble their holder and his family. For example, Raden Ghere was Empress Yzara's Lord Chamberlain. His family were all Thalcedon merchants, but when Ghere was appointed Lord Chamberlain, he and his wife and children were raised into the noble classes. The Archprelates of the Orders of the Church are also considered noble regardless of their birth. Nobility can also be granted for military service. Andrew > Ibrahim > > ================================ > Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer > ================================ > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age > of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. After age 18, > Sedonians who can afford it may attend the University of Thalsedon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 15-year olds be considered more-or-less adults in most Qaiyore cultures? They certainly were in Europe until -- well, I really don't know. At the very least a 15 year old would be expected to work full time (and all children would be exptected to work part time upto their ability from 6 years). Schooling ALL children until they are 15, and expecting most to continue going to school for several years after that is quite a modern concept that most current-day countries (NA/Europe excluded) cannot afford (in the short-run; the long-run perspective is another thing entirely). How about lowering the first age limit to 10 years? Another question: if Order of Lucia offers free schooling to *all* children, how many actually take advantage of that? And how many hours per week / month / year? Offering full schooling for all children would require HUGE amounts of resources from the Order. For example in Finland in the 19th century, all children were offered free schooling. But for most of the children, this consisted of a 2-week period once per year. The goal was to teach everyone to be able to read the most important parts of the bible. So the *real* reason for this practice was religious, not social or purely "educational". And this practice was backed up by being conducted by the state religion; this is not a status that the Order of Lucia can claim (being only a part of the state religion...). > Full Scholarships are available to students who are bright but poor, and > the Sedonian State Church pays half the fees of students who commit to > joining an Order. The University also reduces the tuition fees of > students who agree to remain at the University after taking their degree > and teach. > > Overall functional literacy rates in Sedonia are in the 55-60% range, > but nearly all Sedonians can at least write their own names. Would that 'all' mean women, too? And rural areas / peasants? I don't remember right now what's the status of women in Sedonia. (Experiences of aid workers in Africa show that literacy of women has a much bigger impact on productivity and health of the people than literacy of men. However, all too often only men are given even the possibility of education.) Anyhow, I feel that the 55-60% literacy is much too high, unless it applies to a certain restricted group. > The Order > of Lucia places importance on literacy and numeracy. In rural Sedonia, > most families have a hard time seeing the value of literacy, but they > keenly grasp the importance of being numerate, especially when it comes > time to sell the harvest, or the tax assessor comes around. In the > rising merchant classes of the cities, literacy approaches 85-90%. This might well be true, although it also is quite high. > The University is open to both men and women, and students from any > country are admitted, provided they can pass a proficiency test in > Sedonian, and can pay their fees. How many of the university students are women? And do they have separate classes from men? juuso ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Actually, having thought it over, I've changed my mind. The Educational System as described represents the state of affairs before the collapse of the Empire in 1280. Major changes since then are generally in the form of cutbacks: the Order of Lucia tries to offer schooling to everyone, but as a practical matter, some areas are too remote for full-time education. This is particularly true in Selaria and Casovia. Schooling is much more readily available in the cities. Since 1280, the University has become far more of a technical school. Degrees in medicine and law are still offered, but most students enroll in civil engineering, alchemy/metallurgy, theology, or modern languages. Political philosophy also remains popular. Many of the liberal arts degrees have been severely curtailed Andrew Juha Vesanto wrote: > Andrew Janssen wrote: > >>The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age >>of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. After age 18, >>Sedonians who can afford it may attend the University of Thalsedon. > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 15-year olds be considered > more-or-less adults in most Qaiyore cultures? They certainly were > in Europe until -- well, I really don't know. At the very least > a 15 year old would be expected to work full time (and all children > would be exptected to work part time upto their ability from 6 years). > > Schooling ALL children until they are 15, and expecting most to continue > going to school for several years after that is quite a modern concept > that most current-day countries (NA/Europe excluded) cannot afford > (in the short-run; the long-run perspective is another thing entirely). > How about lowering the first age limit to 10 years? > > Another question: if Order of Lucia offers free schooling > to *all* children, how many actually take advantage of that? > And how many hours per week / month / year? Offering full schooling for > all children would require HUGE amounts of resources from the Order. > > For example in Finland in the 19th century, all children were offered > free schooling. But for most of the children, this consisted of a 2-week > period once per year. The goal was to teach everyone to be able to read > the most important parts of the bible. So the *real* reason for this > practice was religious, not social or purely "educational". And this > practice was backed up by being conducted by the state religion; this > is not a status that the Order of Lucia can claim (being only a part > of the state religion...). > > > >>Full Scholarships are available to students who are bright but poor, and >>the Sedonian State Church pays half the fees of students who commit to >>joining an Order. The University also reduces the tuition fees of >>students who agree to remain at the University after taking their degree >>and teach. >> >>Overall functional literacy rates in Sedonia are in the 55-60% range, >>but nearly all Sedonians can at least write their own names. > > > Would that 'all' mean women, too? And rural areas / peasants? I don't > remember right now what's the status of women in Sedonia. (Experiences > of aid workers in Africa show that literacy of women has a much bigger > impact on productivity and health of the people than literacy of men. > However, all too often only men are given even the possibility of > education.) > > Anyhow, I feel that the 55-60% literacy is much too high, unless it > applies to a certain restricted group. > > >>The Order >>of Lucia places importance on literacy and numeracy. In rural Sedonia, >>most families have a hard time seeing the value of literacy, but they >>keenly grasp the importance of being numerate, especially when it comes >>time to sell the harvest, or the tax assessor comes around. In the >>rising merchant classes of the cities, literacy approaches 85-90%. > > > This might well be true, although it also is quite high. > > >>The University is open to both men and women, and students from any >>country are admitted, provided they can pass a proficiency test in >>Sedonian, and can pay their fees. > > > How many of the university students are women? And do they have > separate classes from men? > > juuso > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
What about roving Lucian Order members who provide basic education to isolated villages etc? Would fit in with Lucian mission of enlightenment. Andrew Janssen wrote: >Actually, having thought it over, I've changed my mind. The Educational >System as described represents the state of affairs before the collapse >of the Empire in 1280. > >Major changes since then are generally in the form of cutbacks: the >Order of Lucia tries to offer schooling to everyone, but as a practical >matter, some areas are too remote for full-time education. This is >particularly true in Selaria and Casovia. Schooling is much more readily >available in the cities. > >Since 1280, the University has become far more of a technical school. >Degrees in medicine and law are still offered, but most students enroll >in civil engineering, alchemy/metallurgy, theology, or modern languages. >Political philosophy also remains popular. Many of the liberal arts >degrees have been severely curtailed > >Andrew > >Juha Vesanto wrote: > > >>Andrew Janssen wrote: >> >> >> >>>The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age >>>of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. After age 18, >>>Sedonians who can afford it may attend the University of Thalsedon. >>> >>> >>Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 15-year olds be considered >>more-or-less adults in most Qaiyore cultures? They certainly were >>in Europe until -- well, I really don't know. At the very least >>a 15 year old would be expected to work full time (and all children >>would be exptected to work part time upto their ability from 6 years). >> >>Schooling ALL children until they are 15, and expecting most to continue >>going to school for several years after that is quite a modern concept >>that most current-day countries (NA/Europe excluded) cannot afford >>(in the short-run; the long-run perspective is another thing entirely). >>How about lowering the first age limit to 10 years? >> >>Another question: if Order of Lucia offers free schooling >>to *all* children, how many actually take advantage of that? >>And how many hours per week / month / year? Offering full schooling for >>all children would require HUGE amounts of resources from the Order. >> >>For example in Finland in the 19th century, all children were offered >>free schooling. But for most of the children, this consisted of a 2-week >>period once per year. The goal was to teach everyone to be able to read >>the most important parts of the bible. So the *real* reason for this >>practice was religious, not social or purely "educational". And this >>practice was backed up by being conducted by the state religion; this >>is not a status that the Order of Lucia can claim (being only a part >>of the state religion...). >> >> >> >> >> >>>Full Scholarships are available to students who are bright but poor, and >>>the Sedonian State Church pays half the fees of students who commit to >>>joining an Order. The University also reduces the tuition fees of >>>students who agree to remain at the University after taking their degree >>>and teach. >>> >>>Overall functional literacy rates in Sedonia are in the 55-60% range, >>>but nearly all Sedonians can at least write their own names. >>> >>> >>Would that 'all' mean women, too? And rural areas / peasants? I don't >>remember right now what's the status of women in Sedonia. (Experiences >>of aid workers in Africa show that literacy of women has a much bigger >>impact on productivity and health of the people than literacy of men. >>However, all too often only men are given even the possibility of >>education.) >> >>Anyhow, I feel that the 55-60% literacy is much too high, unless it >>applies to a certain restricted group. >> >> >> >> >>>The Order >>>of Lucia places importance on literacy and numeracy. In rural Sedonia, >>>most families have a hard time seeing the value of literacy, but they >>>keenly grasp the importance of being numerate, especially when it comes >>>time to sell the harvest, or the tax assessor comes around. In the >>>rising merchant classes of the cities, literacy approaches 85-90%. >>> >>> >>This might well be true, although it also is quite high. >> >> >> >> >>>The University is open to both men and women, and students from any >>>country are admitted, provided they can pass a proficiency test in >>>Sedonian, and can pay their fees. >>> >>> >>How many of the university students are women? And do they have >>separate classes from men? >> >>juuso >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. >> >> >> > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > > > > ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Yeah, in the more rural and remote areas, you do get Lucian priests who "ride circuit" and provide basic education services: some reading, writing, and 'rithmatic, basic religious doctrine, etc. More importantly, they also teach children about how to recognize dangerous animals and poisonous plants, and provide some basic survival skills. In answer to Juuso's question about sex distribution at the University, it's currently about a 60-40 split in favor of the men. Most women are there for theology, medicine, law, or modern languages, although they are not absent from the other programs. Andrew ibrahim wrote: > What about roving Lucian Order members who provide basic education to > isolated villages etc? Would fit in with Lucian mission of enlightenment. > > Andrew Janssen wrote: > > >>Actually, having thought it over, I've changed my mind. The Educational >>System as described represents the state of affairs before the collapse >>of the Empire in 1280. >> >>Major changes since then are generally in the form of cutbacks: the >>Order of Lucia tries to offer schooling to everyone, but as a practical >>matter, some areas are too remote for full-time education. This is >>particularly true in Selaria and Casovia. Schooling is much more readily >>available in the cities. >> >>Since 1280, the University has become far more of a technical school. >>Degrees in medicine and law are still offered, but most students enroll >>in civil engineering, alchemy/metallurgy, theology, or modern languages. >>Political philosophy also remains popular. Many of the liberal arts >>degrees have been severely curtailed >> >>Andrew >> >>Juha Vesanto wrote: >> >> >> >>>Andrew Janssen wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age >>>>of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. After age 18, >>>>Sedonians who can afford it may attend the University of Thalsedon. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 15-year olds be considered >>>more-or-less adults in most Qaiyore cultures? They certainly were >>>in Europe until -- well, I really don't know. At the very least >>>a 15 year old would be expected to work full time (and all children >>>would be exptected to work part time upto their ability from 6 years). >>> >>>Schooling ALL children until they are 15, and expecting most to continue >>>going to school for several years after that is quite a modern concept >>>that most current-day countries (NA/Europe excluded) cannot afford >>>(in the short-run; the long-run perspective is another thing entirely). >>>How about lowering the first age limit to 10 years? >>> >>>Another question: if Order of Lucia offers free schooling >>>to *all* children, how many actually take advantage of that? >>>And how many hours per week / month / year? Offering full schooling for >>>all children would require HUGE amounts of resources from the Order. >>> >>>For example in Finland in the 19th century, all children were offered >>>free schooling. But for most of the children, this consisted of a 2-week >>>period once per year. The goal was to teach everyone to be able to read >>>the most important parts of the bible. So the *real* reason for this >>>practice was religious, not social or purely "educational". And this >>>practice was backed up by being conducted by the state religion; this >>>is not a status that the Order of Lucia can claim (being only a part >>>of the state religion...). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Full Scholarships are available to students who are bright but poor, and >>>>the Sedonian State Church pays half the fees of students who commit to >>>>joining an Order. The University also reduces the tuition fees of >>>>students who agree to remain at the University after taking their degree >>>>and teach. >>>> >>>>Overall functional literacy rates in Sedonia are in the 55-60% range, >>>>but nearly all Sedonians can at least write their own names. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>Would that 'all' mean women, too? And rural areas / peasants? I don't >>>remember right now what's the status of women in Sedonia. (Experiences >>>of aid workers in Africa show that literacy of women has a much bigger >>>impact on productivity and health of the people than literacy of men. >>>However, all too often only men are given even the possibility of >>>education.) >>> >>>Anyhow, I feel that the 55-60% literacy is much too high, unless it >>>applies to a certain restricted group. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The Order >>>>of Lucia places importance on literacy and numeracy. In rural Sedonia, >>>>most families have a hard time seeing the value of literacy, but they >>>>keenly grasp the importance of being numerate, especially when it comes >>>>time to sell the harvest, or the tax assessor comes around. In the >>>>rising merchant classes of the cities, literacy approaches 85-90%. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>This might well be true, although it also is quite high. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The University is open to both men and women, and students from any >>>>country are admitted, provided they can pass a proficiency test in >>>>Sedonian, and can pay their fees. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>How many of the university students are women? And do they have >>>separate classes from men? >>> >>>juuso >>>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. >>> >>> >>> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. >> >> >> >> > > > > ================================ > Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer > ================================ > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age > of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. Where does the money come from to do this and how does Sedonia manage to maintain significant wealth while doing it? -- Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote: > Andrew Janssen wrote: > > >>The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age >>of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18. > > > Where does the money come from to do this and how does Sedonia manage to > maintain significant wealth while doing it? > I revised the description after some discussion: the above now represents the situation before the Ice Demons destroyed the old Empire. These days, the Lucians just try to educate as many children as they can, however they can. In practice, this means that only children whose parents want them educated and can afford fees go to school for more than a year or two. In terms of paying for it all, it was a lot easier when Sedonia controlled nearly all the continent. That's why universal schooling is just an ideal these days. Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote:
> Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
>
>>The Order of Lucia offers free schooling to all children through the age
>>of 14, and charges fees for children ages 15 to 18.
>
>
> Where does the money come from to do this and how does Sedonia manage to
> maintain significant wealth while doing it?
>
As far as money goes(the following is a collection of WAGs):
Sedonia has about 20 million people.
We will assume, primus, that 15 million of those are taxpayers.
Secundus, we assume that the government collects, on average, .5 gold
imperials per taxpayer, 7.5 million imperials per year.
Sedonia mints its gold imperials at the rate of 80 to the pound. 15
million imperials equals 93,750 pounds of gold.
Officially, gold trades for silver in Sedonia at a rate of 1:16. Tax
revenues are equivalent to 1.5 million pounds of silver.
Of that 1.5 million pounds, 11,406.25 pounds are spent on the Standing
Military of 50,000 men, leaving 1,488,593.75 pounds for other
governmental functions.
Converting everything back into gold imperials:
* Tax Revenue: 7.5 million gold imperials
* Military Expenses: 912,500 gold imperials
* Revenue Remaining: 6,587,500 gold imperials
In actual practice, of course, revenue collection and expense
disbursements are constant processes. Also, a certain proportion of
taxes collected from peasants are "in kind" rather than cash. The above
also ignores:
* Waste and corruption
* Fees for permits and licenses
* Import/export tarriffing
* Excise taxes on hard liquor
* Rentals of government-owned land and property
* Income from governmental monopolies:
* New Steel
* The gem mines of Roth Mythysa
Andrew
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > Secundus, we assume that the government collects, on average, .5 gold > imperials per taxpayer, 7.5 million imperials per year. That seems like an awful lot. What is the purchasing power of a gold imperial? To put it another way, what are the wages or take home pay of a professional baker (monthly or yearly)? -- Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote: > Andrew Janssen wrote: > > >>Secundus, we assume that the government collects, on average, .5 gold >>imperials per taxpayer, 7.5 million imperials per year. > > > That seems like an awful lot. What is the purchasing power of a gold > imperial? To put it another way, what are the wages or take home pay of a > professional baker (monthly or yearly)? > It's an average, and a Wild-A$$ed-Guess to boot. Some people pay more, some pay less. But, you're right, it's probably high. An imperial is .2 ounces of gold minted at 80 to the pound; the next lower denomination is the silver sedon, .32 oz. of silver per coin, or 50 to the pound. Finally, you have the copper penny, minted at 100 to the pound, .16 oz. copper per coin. 1 imperial=10 sedons=100 pennies. One coin that's minted, but not often seen, is the gold crown, a full ounce of gold, equal to 5 imperials. To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2 an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market. Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2 > an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are > typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market. I forgot to add: a new pair of shoes will cost a common laborer 2 pennies a pair, or a bit less than two day's wages. Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2 > an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are > typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market. Let's see, the top end of common laborer pay (say, an experienced dockworker) is probably about half that of an average baker. (I like looking at bakers because its an average job that's changed pretty regularly with technology, but also goes back to the earliest days of civilization.) So, if bakers take home one imperial and give 1/2 imperial to the government each year, the tax rate is around 33% -- which is an _awfully_ lenient set of taxes, but certainly in the possible range. Andrew Janssen wrote: > Sedonia has about 20 million people. > > We will assume, primus, that 15 million of those are taxpayers. > > Secundus, we assume that the government collects, on average, .5 gold > imperials per taxpayer, 7.5 million imperials per year. [snip] > Converting everything back into gold imperials: > * Tax Revenue: 7.5 million gold imperials > * Military Expenses: 912,500 gold imperials I think you're underestimating this number. Basically, you can start by taking pay and board and then assume that each soldier's "kit" needs to be repurchased every five years. Then double (at least, significant expendables like arrows raise it to a minimum tripling) that value account for administration and so forth. So you're saying that a soldier's kit runs less than 45 imperials? Then there are your reserves . . . > * Revenue Remaining: 6,587,500 gold imperials OK, running some numbers with only a slightly higher tax rate, the old Sedonian Empire _could_ have gotten the literacy rates you mentioned, but only by skimping on needed expenses (roads, sewers, courts, etc.) elsewhere. It's likely that in the past few years someone in the government has said to the Lucians and the universities, "yes, we're recovered, but, no, we can't fund you at pre-civil-war levels." (This, BTW, also means that your printing project is extremely appropriate.) Any thoughts on how Sedonia's civil services are organized? Another of my societies has the following divisions: Agriculture, Diplomacy, Economy & Treasury, Education, Industry, Mental Well-being, Physical Health, Research, Spiritual Balance, and Truth & Justice. (In this society Intelligence is one of the five military services.) Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote: >Andrew Janssen wrote: > > > To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2 > > an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are > > typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market. > >Let's see, the top end of common laborer pay (say, an experienced >dockworker) is probably about half that of an average baker. (I like >looking at bakers because its an average job that's changed pretty >regularly with technology, but also goes back to the earliest days of >civilization.) So, if bakers take home one imperial and give 1/2 >imperial to the government each year, the tax rate is around 33% -- >which is an _awfully_ lenient set of taxes, but certainly in the >possible range. > > While there is little to talk of in the way of unionism, there certainly would be guilds in almost all Qaiyorean societies. Thus, the salary of skilled and semi-skilled occupations could be modified upwards depending on the degree of solidarity in a particular union. One of the main functions of a union was to regulate supply of services for a particular occupation, and therefore increase the market rate for that service. Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: > Jefferson wrote: >>Andrew Janssen wrote: >> >>>To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2 >>>an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are >>>typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market. >> >>Let's see, the top end of common laborer pay (say, an experienced >>dockworker) is probably about half that of an average baker. (I like >>looking at bakers because its an average job that's changed pretty >>regularly with technology, but also goes back to the earliest days of >>civilization.) So, if bakers take home one imperial and give 1/2 >>imperial to the government each year, the tax rate is around 33% -- >>which is an _awfully_ lenient set of taxes, but certainly in the >>possible range. > > While there is little to talk of in the way of unionism, there certainly > would be guilds in almost all Qaiyorean societies. Thus, the salary of > skilled and semi-skilled occupations could be modified upwards depending > on the degree of solidarity in a particular union. One of the main > functions of a union was to regulate supply of services for a particular > occupation, and therefore increase the market rate for that service. Another reason I like to use bakers as my standard is that they have little incentive to unionize. Yes, where guilds are powerful bakers are commonly "guildsmen" but it doesn't change their pay all that much. Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: > Jefferson wrote: > >>Ibrahim wrote: >> >> >>>Jefferson wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Andrew Janssen wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2 >>>>>an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are >>>>>typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Let's see, the top end of common laborer pay (say, an experienced >>>>dockworker) is probably about half that of an average baker. (I like >>>>looking at bakers because its an average job that's changed pretty >>>>regularly with technology, but also goes back to the earliest days of >>>>civilization.) So, if bakers take home one imperial and give 1/2 >>>>imperial to the government each year, the tax rate is around 33% -- >>>>which is an _awfully_ lenient set of taxes, but certainly in the >>>>possible range. >>>> >>>> >>>While there is little to talk of in the way of unionism, there certainly >>>would be guilds in almost all Qaiyorean societies. Thus, the salary of >>>skilled and semi-skilled occupations could be modified upwards depending >>>on the degree of solidarity in a particular union. One of the main >>>functions of a union was to regulate supply of services for a particular >>>occupation, and therefore increase the market rate for that service. >>> >>> >>Another reason I like to use bakers as my standard is that they have little >>incentive to unionize. Yes, where guilds are powerful bakers are commonly >>"guildsmen" but it doesn't change their pay all that much. >> >> > Sorry, should have been "One of the main functions of a guild", not > union. But you're right about bakers. > > Guilds would be significant in any technological innovation too, > especially when it is apparent that any reform or innovation will > affect the priviliges of a guild negatively. > > In Sedonia, I imagine the guilds connected with the military, > especially the manufacture of weaponry, would have considerable power > and status. > > Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote:
> Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
> > To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2
> > an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are
> > typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market.
>
> Let's see, the top end of common laborer pay (say, an experienced
> dockworker) is probably about half that of an average baker. (I like
> looking at bakers because its an average job that's changed pretty
> regularly with technology, but also goes back to the earliest days of
> civilization.) So, if bakers take home one imperial and give 1/2
> imperial to the government each year, the tax rate is around 33% --
> which is an _awfully_ lenient set of taxes, but certainly in the
> possible range.
>
> Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
> > Sedonia has about 20 million people.
> >
> > We will assume, primus, that 15 million of those are taxpayers.
> >
> > Secundus, we assume that the government collects, on average, .5 gold
> > imperials per taxpayer, 7.5 million imperials per year.
>
> [snip]
>
> > Converting everything back into gold imperials:
> > * Tax Revenue: 7.5 million gold imperials
> > * Military Expenses: 912,500 gold imperials
>
> I think you're underestimating this number. Basically, you can start by
> taking pay and board and then assume that each soldier's "kit" needs to
> be repurchased every five years. Then double (at least, significant
> expendables like arrows raise it to a minimum tripling) that value
> account for administration and so forth. So you're saying that a
> soldier's kit runs less than 45 imperials? Then there are your reserves
> . . .
The numbers I gave for tax revenue & military expenses should not be
considered final. They represented a very approximate first pass--a very
rough estimate. And of course, like I said, I wasn't considering all
revenue sources. If I have time, I'll try to arrive at a better set of
numbers.
Also, I'm going to need to alter some prior posts: If I use the legion
pay scales I gave in a prior post, the payroll for a single legion would
run around 1.8 million imperials. Looking at the numbers, thing work
better if I divide the legion pay scale given by ten.
> > * Revenue Remaining: 6,587,500 gold imperials
>
> OK, running some numbers with only a slightly higher tax rate, the old
> Sedonian Empire _could_ have gotten the literacy rates you mentioned,
> but only by skimping on needed expenses (roads, sewers, courts, etc.)
> elsewhere. It's likely that in the past few years someone in the
> government has said to the Lucians and the universities, "yes, we're
> recovered, but, no, we can't fund you at pre-civil-war levels." (This,
> BTW, also means that your printing project is extremely appropriate.)
The other thing, of course, is that the Church collects tithes and
apportions them to the Orders. That provided some of the educational
funds, pre-war.
> Any thoughts on how Sedonia's civil services are organized? Another of
> my societies has the following divisions: Agriculture, Diplomacy,
> Economy & Treasury, Education, Industry, Mental Well-being, Physical
> Health, Research, Spiritual Balance, and Truth & Justice. (In this
> society Intelligence is one of the five military services.)
I think I mentioned this in a past posting. The major ministries and
their primary divisions are:
* Ministry of the Exchequer (Economy & Finance)
* Treasury
* Imperial Bank
* Imperial Revenue Service
* Imperial Customs Service
* Office of the Inspector-General (Audits the government)
* Imperial Mint
* Ministry of the Interior (Infrastucture & People)
* Bureau of Mines
* Bureau of Roads & Highways
* Bureau of Rivers (locks, dams, levees, irrigation)
* Bureau of Water & Sanitation (sewers & aqueducts)
* Bureau of Constuction (builds & maintains government facilities)
* Bureau of Vital Statistics (births, deaths, marriages, wills)
* Bureau of Deeds (registers real estate transactions)
* Bureau of Education
* Bureau of Health
* Imperial Postal Service
* Foreign Ministry
* Bureau of Analysis & Policy (mostly deadwood)
* Tribal Service (posted to tribal nations)
* Ambassadorial Service (posted to civilized nations)
* Diplomatic Service (posted to Thalsedon)
* Ministry of Agriculture
* Bureau of Granaries
* Bureau of Stockbreeding
* Extension Agents
* Ministry of War
* Imperial General Staff
* The Admiralty
* Bureau of Military Procurement
* Bureau of Fortifications
* Imperial Topographical Service
* Ministry of Justice
* Bureau of Police (coordinates City Watches)
* Bureau of Public Prosecutions
* Judical Bureau
* Bureau of Prisons
* Ministry of Special Projects
* Office of Research
* Imperial Archives
* Office of Special Projects (Intelligence)
* The Privy Purse (monies for the use of the monarch)
* The Imperial Art Gallery
* The Imperial Household (maintenance & staffing of palaces)
Of these various agencies, the Bureaus of Health and Education are
agitating for status as Ministries. The problem is that the bureau heads
want to create a single ministry, but negotiations have stalled on
whether the new ministry will be Health & Education, or Education &
Health, and which of the current bureau chiefs will become the new minister.
The Ministry of Special Projects is a bunch of odds'n'sods which were
lumped together. The Privy Purse, for instance, is the monarch's
personal funds. Even though there currently isn't an emperor, the monies
still get collected and distributed. Special Projects currently uses the
funds to pay the expenses of the Imperial Art Gallery and the Imperial
Household, and holds the remainder in trust until such time as a new
Emperor takes the throne, or the law is changed.
Andrew
> Jefferson
> http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > Jefferson wrote: >>Andrew Janssen wrote: >> >> > To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2 >> > an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are >> > typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market. >> >>Let's see, the top end of common laborer pay (say, an experienced >>dockworker) is probably about half that of an average baker. (I like >>looking at bakers because its an average job that's changed pretty >>regularly with technology, but also goes back to the earliest days of >>civilization.) So, if bakers take home one imperial and give 1/2 >>imperial to the government each year, the tax rate is around 33% -- >>which is an _awfully_ lenient set of taxes, but certainly in the >>possible range. I miscalculated this. I should have been thinking households instead of individuals. So the baker takes home one imperial and pays taxes for himself, a spouse, and a parent with his children as non-taxpayers. This works out to around a 60% tax rate. Pretty standard for the period. >>Andrew Janssen wrote: >> >> > Sedonia has about 20 million people. >> > >> > We will assume, primus, that 15 million of those are taxpayers. >> > >> > Secundus, we assume that the government collects, on average, .5 gold >> > imperials per taxpayer, 7.5 million imperials per year. >> >>[snip] >> >> > Converting everything back into gold imperials: >> > * Tax Revenue: 7.5 million gold imperials >> > * Military Expenses: 912,500 gold imperials >> >>I think you're underestimating this number. Basically, you can start by >>taking pay and board and then assume that each soldier's "kit" needs to >>be repurchased every five years. Then double (at least, significant >>expendables like arrows raise it to a minimum tripling) that value >>account for administration and so forth. So you're saying that a >>soldier's kit runs less than 45 imperials? Then there are your reserves >>. . . > > The numbers I gave for tax revenue & military expenses should not be > considered final. They represented a very approximate first pass--a very > rough estimate. And of course, like I said, I wasn't considering all > revenue sources. If I have time, I'll try to arrive at a better set of > numbers. Of course. I was just making comments to define things more clearly. > Also, I'm going to need to alter some prior posts: If I use the legion > pay scales I gave in a prior post, the payroll for a single legion would > run around 1.8 million imperials. Looking at the numbers, thing work > better if I divide the legion pay scale given by ten. So what does a common soldier get paid, and are their further allowances for families? >> > * Revenue Remaining: 6,587,500 gold imperials >> >>OK, running some numbers with only a slightly higher tax rate, the old >>Sedonian Empire _could_ have gotten the literacy rates you mentioned, >>but only by skimping on needed expenses (roads, sewers, courts, etc.) >>elsewhere. It's likely that in the past few years someone in the >>government has said to the Lucians and the universities, "yes, we're >>recovered, but, no, we can't fund you at pre-civil-war levels." (This, >>BTW, also means that your printing project is extremely appropriate.) > > The other thing, of course, is that the Church collects tithes and > apportions them to the Orders. That provided some of the educational > funds, pre-war. I doubt this is going to be significant unless there are mandated tithes, which are effectively taxes that go straight to the churches. Churches have their own operating expenses, and those are going to eat up almost all of the freewill offerings. Even rents and duties aren't going to add up all that much (Sedonia not being a theocracy). Hmmm, this discussion had made it clear that without an inexpensive means of replicating information the various divisions of The Ministry of Inquiry (of which Exquaestio is one) are doomed to minority status. Without that they really don't have the resources to supply basic services. I don't know when I'll hit that bar, but at least I now know it's there. Hmmm, that I need to think about. Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote: > Andrew Janssen wrote: > >>Jefferson wrote: >> >>>Andrew Janssen wrote: >>> >>> >>>>To give an idea of buying power, a common laborer will earn at most 1/2 >>>>an imperial in a year, or 40 pennies per month. Grain prices are >>>>typically 12 pennies per quarter-bushel on the open market. >>> >>>Let's see, the top end of common laborer pay (say, an experienced >>>dockworker) is probably about half that of an average baker. (I like >>>looking at bakers because its an average job that's changed pretty >>>regularly with technology, but also goes back to the earliest days of >>>civilization.) So, if bakers take home one imperial and give 1/2 >>>imperial to the government each year, the tax rate is around 33% -- >>>which is an _awfully_ lenient set of taxes, but certainly in the >>>possible range. > > > I miscalculated this. I should have been thinking households instead of > individuals. So the baker takes home one imperial and pays taxes for > himself, a spouse, and a parent with his children as non-taxpayers. This > works out to around a 60% tax rate. Pretty standard for the period. > > >>>Andrew Janssen wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Sedonia has about 20 million people. >>>> >>>>We will assume, primus, that 15 million of those are taxpayers. >>>> >>>>Secundus, we assume that the government collects, on average, .5 gold >>>>imperials per taxpayer, 7.5 million imperials per year. >>> >>>[snip] >>> >>> >>>>Converting everything back into gold imperials: >>>> * Tax Revenue: 7.5 million gold imperials >>>> * Military Expenses: 912,500 gold imperials >>> >>>I think you're underestimating this number. Basically, you can start by >>>taking pay and board and then assume that each soldier's "kit" needs to >>>be repurchased every five years. Then double (at least, significant >>>expendables like arrows raise it to a minimum tripling) that value >>>account for administration and so forth. So you're saying that a >>>soldier's kit runs less than 45 imperials? Then there are your reserves >>>. . . >> >>The numbers I gave for tax revenue & military expenses should not be >>considered final. They represented a very approximate first pass--a very >>rough estimate. And of course, like I said, I wasn't considering all >>revenue sources. If I have time, I'll try to arrive at a better set of >>numbers. > > > Of course. I was just making comments to define things more clearly. > > >>Also, I'm going to need to alter some prior posts: If I use the legion >>pay scales I gave in a prior post, the payroll for a single legion would >>run around 1.8 million imperials. Looking at the numbers, thing work >>better if I divide the legion pay scale given by ten. > > > So what does a common soldier get paid, and are their further allowances > for families? Common soldiers get paid 30 imperia