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Celandra is a game in which the players take the roles of societies, rather than playing individual characters. The players will invent a society with its culture and heritage, and will guide its development and interaction with the world. Emphasis will be be placed on developing a detailed history of Celandra, along with myths and legends.
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IbrAhim
ibrahim

Fri

Mar 4
2005

10:41Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

Nagasri, Lord of the Snakes


The Panchayyah are a highly superstitious people as a whole, worshipping 
many gods.  None of the Midsea gods are present (in name or origin, 
though perhaps in identity), assumably because of the Panchayyah 
isolation from the Midsea.  It is doubtful even if there are connections 
to the deities of Aixelsydan, let alone those of Milakanur.  Of all the 
animistic deities worshipped, only Nagasri the Snake Lord rates mention, 
as the others are no different to the primitive cults found elsewhere in 
Qaiyore, such as the Stormrider of the Olozog or the totemistic deities 
of the Onagir.

The Panchayyah people predominantly worship the Snake Lord, a fact 
reinforced by the domination of the Rimriver by the Panchayyah tribe 
proper whose tribal deitiy is Nagasri.  The Panchayyah domination has 
only reinforced the status of Nagasri amongst the Rimriver tribes, 
interpreting the tribe's success as a sign of Snake Lord's power.

Nagasri is a deity with a dual aspect - a publically acknowledged one 
and a far more secretive, darker never spoken of aspect.  The Snake Lord 
is publically addressed as the Wise One, the Guardian of Crops, the 
Confidante, the Righter of Wrongs, the Watchful One, the Dark Saviour, 
the Lord of Mysteries, the Righteous Serpent.  Privately, an in 
secretive or conspiratorial matters, he is referred to (in hushed tones) 
as the Knower of the Ancient, the Consuming Serpent, Lord of the Night, 
the Keeper of Secrets, the Whisperer, the Creeping Hunter, the Vengeful 
Shadow, Teacher of the Unknownable, the Unseen Serpent.

As can be seen from this clear dichotomy, they are almost parallel, 
clearly showing that Nagasri is an unusually dualistic deity.  What is 
more interesting is that this dualism does not create any internal 
philosophical or theological conflict for the believer.  A devotee 
worships both aspects of the same deity, referring to one element over 
another as the situation demands.  For example, a wronged woman seeking 
justice for her own suffering (having not received any from the 
authorities) would turn to Nagasri in his role as the Righter of Wrongs, 
whereas a rejected lover might call on Nagasri in his role as the 
Whisperer or the Vengeful Shadow.  A traveller lost in the night would 
invoke the Dark Saviour (the Dark Saviour would be prayed to be the 
helpless, the poor and the powerless), as would a devotee surrounded by 
darkness and evil (the suggestion here it appears is that the Dark 
Saviour is more powerful than what might beset the devotee) but a thief 
would pray to the Creeping Hunter.  

Snakes of all varieties are seen as powerful omens by the Panchayyah, 
usually good, and are regarded as the emissaries of Nagasri.  As such, 
there is a taboo against harming them.  Places infested with snakes are 
also seen as taboo holy places, where only the shamans of Nagasri, the 
Nagavallur, may enter.  Snake bites are usually seen as a divine 
punishment, though the person who survives the bite is held to have been 
forgiven and blessed by Nagasri.  Snakes are common symbols in 
Panchayyah and general Alorathean mythology.

The religious imagery of the Panchayyah is highly diverse, but the two 
most common are the ascendent serpent and the coiled serpent.  The 
ascendent serpent is a serpent rearing back in the manner of a cobra, 
with two wings raised fully back and the head looking to the heavens.  
It is commonly held to be the image of the Righteous Serpent.  The 
coiled sperent, is the representative of the darker aspect of Nagasri, 
in which a wingless serpent coils around a dagger from the tip up to the 
handle, its head appearing from behind the handle, hissing.  This is the 
normal icon of the Vengeful Shadow.

Whether the cult can be traced to the ancient dragons or the Draconians, 
it is very doubtful, for though tales of winged serpents and the "men of 
Nagasri" are present in the myths here, the complexity of the theology 
and mythology suggests a third unknown source.

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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Fri

Mar 4
2005

21:43Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

ibrahim wrote:

> As can be seen from this clear dichotomy, they are almost parallel, 
> clearly showing that Nagasri is an unusually dualistic deity.  What is 
> more interesting is that this dualism does not create any internal 
> philosophical or theological conflict for the believer.  A devotee 
> worships both aspects of the same deity, referring to one element over 
> another as the situation demands.

It seems to me that in this religion we've found the origins of the cult of 
Phos-Skotos in Videssia.  Combine this dualism with Creator worship and hatred 
of all forms of magic, and you can dimly see Phos-Skotos.  The question is 
whether Nagasri acted through the Onagir to create Phos-Skotos and then have 
the religion grow beyond his control, or whether the religion was created by a 
mortal familiar with Nagasri in a form where he chose to not participate.

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/



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JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Sat

Mar 5
2005

03:30Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

In regard to Videssia remember that much of modern Videssia was established by Agatius Fossern, a banished and exiled Archmage of Mir.  He was Archmage during the height of Mirish expansion so the area were these tribes are were well within the Empire.  Agatius Fossern crimes were such that while the trail was known the procedings are securely looked away.  So he very well could be a connection between the two areas.
 
Also the Milkanuri are ancestral worshipers.  They beleave strongely in reincarnation.
 
Jason Heaps


Jefferson  wrote:
ibrahim wrote:

> As can be seen from this clear dichotomy, they are almost parallel, 
> clearly showing that Nagasri is an unusually dualistic deity. What is 
> more interesting is that this dualism does not create any internal 
> philosophical or theological conflict for the believer. A devotee 
> worships both aspects of the same deity, referring to one element over 
> another as the situation demands.

It seems to me that in this religion we've found the origins of the cult of 
Phos-Skotos in Videssia. Combine this dualism with Creator worship and hatred 
of all forms of magic, and you can dimly see Phos-Skotos. The question is 
whether Nagasri acted through the Onagir to create Phos-Skotos and then have 
the religion grow beyond his control, or whether the religion was created by a 
mortal familiar with Nagasri in a form where he chose to not participate.

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/



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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Sat

Mar 5
2005

07:18Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

Jason Heaps wrote:

>In regard to Videssia remember that much of modern Videssia was established by Agatius Fossern, a banished and exiled Archmage of Mir.  He was Archmage during the height of Mirish expansion so the area were these tribes are were well within the Empire.  Agatius Fossern crimes were such that while the trail was known the procedings are securely looked away.  So he very well could be a connection between the two areas.
> 
>Also the Milkanuri are ancestral worshipers.  They beleave strongely in reincarnation.
> 
>Jason Heaps
>
>
>  
>
There probably was some kind of control, or at least direct contact, 
exerted by Mir during their Imperial period, as magic is used by the 
Panchayyah, especially amongst their shamans.

Not sure of what you mean by the Milakanuri though - the cultural 
differences between them and the Panchayyah are significant (Panchayyah 
are Alorathean, the Milakanuri sharing the same ancestry as the 
Shanari).  Given such differences, significant contact would be difficult. 

As a side note, the founder of the Millat religion was Milakanuri by 
birth (he went into exile in the Calarnar, where he first received his 
revelations).

Ibrahim


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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Sat

Mar 5
2005

07:14Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

Jefferson wrote:

>ibrahim wrote:
>
>  
>
>>As can be seen from this clear dichotomy, they are almost parallel, 
>>clearly showing that Nagasri is an unusually dualistic deity.  What is 
>>more interesting is that this dualism does not create any internal 
>>philosophical or theological conflict for the believer.  A devotee 
>>worships both aspects of the same deity, referring to one element over 
>>another as the situation demands.
>>    
>>
>
>It seems to me that in this religion we've found the origins of the cult of 
>Phos-Skotos in Videssia.  Combine this dualism with Creator worship and hatred 
>of all forms of magic, and you can dimly see Phos-Skotos.  The question is 
>whether Nagasri acted through the Onagir to create Phos-Skotos and then have 
>the religion grow beyond his control, or whether the religion was created by a 
>mortal familiar with Nagasri in a form where he chose to not participate.
>
>Jefferson (Exquaestio)
>http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
>
>
>
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>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>
>  
>
The only problem I see with this is that the Nagavallur, Nagasri's 
shamans, do use magic (what type and form I'm not sure).... 

This can be seen in Nagasri's titles "the Lord of Mysteries", "Knower of 
the Ancient", and "Teacher of the Uknowable".

I was actually writing this before the Deity list was put up, so I 
before I finished the piece on Nagasri, I read this list.  There are a 
number of deities that have similiarities with Nagasri, from all of the 
pantheons, but none that is clearly identical.   As I  wrote,  I 
realised that  he was more than just another  name for Garr or Maracor 
or any of the good deities, but something else.  A contradiction in 
terms, but nevertheless a  dualistic deity  that does exist (despite the 
current conventions of  Qaiyore theology).

I don't know enough about Phos-Skotos though to say anything either 
way.  What is known of Phos-Skotos?

There are similiarities with Coron, in that both deities have creative 
and destructive aspects, as there are with Demerhaze.  But the same 
applies to Ertoslator to a degree.  Even Arrumantha, as Nagasri is 
worshipped by peasant farmers for his protection of crops from blights 
and pests.  Garr in the role as the Creeping Fear is similiar to 
Nagasri, but sounds like a far more primitive and brutal deity than 
Nagasri (who is generally beyond simple Fear and Rage, and certainly 
does not destroy his loyal followers - at least unnecessarily).  Nagasri 
also has parallels with Scorax The Mad, as Nagasri is also called 
Teacher of the Unknowable.  Overall, Nagasri shares similiarities with 
both the light and dark pantheons, but I suspect he is a member of 
neither, but is either a part of a third pantheon, or exists on his own 
without need of relations or communication with the others (witness the 
isolation of the Panchayyah for millenia).

Nagasri is both loved and feared by his followers, a deity capable of 
all-embracing warmth, protection and love, and unspeakable horror and 
cold calculating, inhuman thought.  I suspect that his shamans, the 
Nagavallur in their devotion, seek to learn all that their master 
teaches them, hopes though that he does not teach them /everything/ that 
he knows.

Ibrahim


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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sat

Mar 5
2005

08:03Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

Ibrahim wrote:



> I don't know enough about Phos-Skotos though to say anything either 
> way.  What is known of Phos-Skotos?

Phos and Skotos don't actually exist. Phos is supposed to be the god of 
light and good, while Skotos is his diametric opposite. It was one of 
the key points about Videssia, as I recall, that they worship beings 
that truly don't exist at all. Gives the phrase, "worshipping false 
gods" new meaning.

Actually, Phos, Skotos, and Videssia itself are "borrowed" from Harry 
Turtledove's Videssos series of fantasies.

> There are similiarities with Coron, in that both deities have creative 
> and destructive aspects, as there are with Demerhaze.  But the same 
> applies to Ertoslator to a degree.  Even Arrumantha, as Nagasri is 
> worshipped by peasant farmers for his protection of crops from blights 
> and pests.  Garr in the role as the Creeping Fear is similiar to 
> Nagasri, but sounds like a far more primitive and brutal deity than 
> Nagasri (who is generally beyond simple Fear and Rage, and certainly 
> does not destroy his loyal followers - at least unnecessarily).  Nagasri 
> also has parallels with Scorax The Mad, as Nagasri is also called 
> Teacher of the Unknowable.  Overall, Nagasri shares similiarities with 
> both the light and dark pantheons, but I suspect he is a member of 
> neither, but is either a part of a third pantheon, or exists on his own 
> without need of relations or communication with the others (witness the 
> isolation of the Panchayyah for millenia).

If the Eerith are to be believed, all the Gods of Celandra are just 
masks of certain aspects of the Creator. Nagasri may just happen to have 
more aspects behind his mask than most.

I'm starting to regret using the term "dark pantheon" to describe the 
goblin-gods. It implies a certain dualism, and a humanocentric 
perspective. Another way of looking at it might be that there have been 
cycles of pantheons: the gods of the lizard-men/draconians came first, 
and were displaced by the goblin-gods, who in turn were displaced by the 
gods of Men.

Another reason for being careful about using the terms "light" and 
"dark" is the ambiguous role of Demerhaze: although she is the jailer 
and guardian of the goblin-gods and demons, and is invoked to protect 
against demons, she also is invoked by those who wish to raise demons. 
Neither dark nor light, she stands on the edge.

> Nagasri is both loved and feared by his followers, a deity capable of 
> all-embracing warmth, protection and love, and unspeakable horror and 
> cold calculating, inhuman thought.  I suspect that his shamans, the 
> Nagavallur in their devotion, seek to learn all that their master 
> teaches them, hopes though that he does not teach them /everything/ that 
> he knows.

I would think that to most outsiders, the darker aspect of Nagasri comes 
as a very unpleasant surprise.

Andrew

> Ibrahim
> 
> 
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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Sat

Mar 5
2005

08:49Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>Ibrahim wrote:
>
>
>
>  
>
>>I don't know enough about Phos-Skotos though to say anything either 
>>way.  What is known of Phos-Skotos?
>>    
>>
>
>Phos and Skotos don't actually exist. Phos is supposed to be the god of 
>light and good, while Skotos is his diametric opposite. It was one of 
>the key points about Videssia, as I recall, that they worship beings 
>that truly don't exist at all. Gives the phrase, "worshipping false 
>gods" new meaning.
>
>Actually, Phos, Skotos, and Videssia itself are "borrowed" from Harry 
>Turtledove's Videssos series of fantasies.
>
>  
>
>>There are similiarities with Coron, in that both deities have creative 
>>and destructive aspects, as there are with Demerhaze.  But the same 
>>applies to Ertoslator to a degree.  Even Arrumantha, as Nagasri is 
>>worshipped by peasant farmers for his protection of crops from blights 
>>and pests.  Garr in the role as the Creeping Fear is similiar to 
>>Nagasri, but sounds like a far more primitive and brutal deity than 
>>Nagasri (who is generally beyond simple Fear and Rage, and certainly 
>>does not destroy his loyal followers - at least unnecessarily).  Nagasri 
>>also has parallels with Scorax The Mad, as Nagasri is also called 
>>Teacher of the Unknowable.  Overall, Nagasri shares similiarities with 
>>both the light and dark pantheons, but I suspect he is a member of 
>>neither, but is either a part of a third pantheon, or exists on his own 
>>without need of relations or communication with the others (witness the 
>>isolation of the Panchayyah for millenia).
>>    
>>
>
>If the Eerith are to be believed, all the Gods of Celandra are just 
>masks of certain aspects of the Creator. Nagasri may just happen to have 
>more aspects behind his mask than most.
>
>I'm starting to regret using the term "dark pantheon" to describe the 
>goblin-gods. It implies a certain dualism, and a humanocentric 
>perspective. Another way of looking at it might be that there have been 
>cycles of pantheons: the gods of the lizard-men/draconians came first, 
>and were displaced by the goblin-gods, who in turn were displaced by the 
>gods of Men.
>
>Another reason for being careful about using the terms "light" and 
>"dark" is the ambiguous role of Demerhaze: although she is the jailer 
>and guardian of the goblin-gods and demons, and is invoked to protect 
>against demons, she also is invoked by those who wish to raise demons. 
>Neither dark nor light, she stands on the edge.
>  
>
All is relative - light and dark might only be appropriate from a human 
perspective, but reversed for the goblins (and irrelevant for the ban 
horroth? / not even a question of Eerith?).

After what you have said about Demerhaze, I would think that Nagasri 
would be in a similiar position to Demerhaze, perhaps even in some kind 
of association with her. 

Ibrahim


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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Sat

Mar 5
2005

08:59Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

Ibrahim wrote:

>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I'm starting to regret using the term "dark pantheon" to describe the 
>>goblin-gods. It implies a certain dualism, and a humanocentric 
>>perspective. Another way of looking at it might be that there have been 
>>cycles of pantheons: the gods of the lizard-men/draconians came first, 
>>and were displaced by the goblin-gods, who in turn were displaced by the 
>>gods of Men.
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>All is relative - light and dark might only be appropriate from a human 
>perspective, but reversed for the goblins (and irrelevant for the ban 
>horroth? / not even a question of Eerith?).
>
>  
>
I think you're thoroughly right Andrew.  Dark pantheon is an appropriate 
term only from certain human perspectives.  I doubt the goblins would 
worship their deities because of some thrill gained from worshipping 
"evil".  Standards of morality and religion is really relative only to 
the culture that produced those standards.

Having said that though, humans are the dominant species in Qaiyore, and 
as such the dominant standard for these things is human. 

So "dark pantheon" isn't necessarily inappropriate, its just perhaps not 
completely accurate. : )

Ibrahim


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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Sat

Mar 5
2005

16:33Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

Ibrahim wrote:

> The only problem I see with this is that the Nagavallur, Nagasri's 
> shamans, do use magic (what type and form I'm not sure).... 
>
> This can be seen in Nagasri's titles "the Lord of Mysteries", "Knower of 
> the Ancient", and "Teacher of the Uknowable".

The denial of magic is specific to Videssia, and may very well have been the 
factor that prevented Nagasri from adopting the religion of Phos-Skotos.

> I was actually writing this before the Deity list was put up, so I 
> before I finished the piece on Nagasri, I read this list.  There are a 
> number of deities that have similiarities with Nagasri, from all of the 
> pantheons, but none that is clearly identical.   As I  wrote,  I 
> realised that  he was more than just another  name for Garr or Maracor 
> or any of the good deities, but something else.  A contradiction in 
> terms, but nevertheless a  dualistic deity  that does exist (despite the 
> current conventions of  Qaiyore theology).

Yes.  Nagasri does seem to be a different individual than any of the gods 
known to this point.  Cultural factors, however, can create changes that could 
make the same deity nearly unrecognizeable.

> I don't know enough about Phos-Skotos though to say anything either 
> way.  What is known of Phos-Skotos?

see http://members.tripod.com/~kimril/videssia/humaniti.html

Jefferson (Exquaestio)
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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JuhaVesanto
juuso

Tue

Mar 8
2005

21:37Z

[Cel] Nagasri, the Snake Lord

Andrew Janssen wrote:
> I'm starting to regret using the term "dark pantheon" to describe the 
> goblin-gods. It implies a certain dualism, and a humanocentric 
> perspective. Another way of looking at it might be that there have been 

In my mind, the list of gods is a compilation of (some of) the biggest
god-related religions on Qaiyore. There are hundreds, if not thousands, 
of smaller religions and cults which circle around various powerful / 
imagined beings from the Dreaming. And the Dreaming is vast. The number
of beings involved with some aspects of life on Celandra is very, very
small compared to the total number of "relevant" beings in the Dreaming.

So, the term "dark pantheon" certainly gives a wrong idea, and signifies
a cultural perspective rather than an absolute one. The goblins 
certainly don't view their gods as "dark" gods.

> cycles of pantheons: the gods of the lizard-men/draconians came first, 
> and were displaced by the goblin-gods, who in turn were displaced by the 
> gods of Men.

This is much better approach. But perhaps not the right one either.
Saying of the gods that they are gods of the lizard-men somehow binds
the god to the lizard-men. Whereas the gods have, or may have, an agenda
of their own, quite apart from the lizard-men. It's just that the 
lizard-men have taken to worshipping certain gods, and the gods have
decided to let them do it for a while... Certainly some gods adopt
certain cultures or races, even derive their Authority or at least
focus from them. But there are many other possible sources of focus,
and the gods (beings in the Dreaming) exist quite apart from whatever
happens on Celandra.

juuso

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