
Nagasri, Lord of the Snakes The Panchayyah are a highly superstitious people as a whole, worshipping many gods. None of the Midsea gods are present (in name or origin, though perhaps in identity), assumably because of the Panchayyah isolation from the Midsea. It is doubtful even if there are connections to the deities of Aixelsydan, let alone those of Milakanur. Of all the animistic deities worshipped, only Nagasri the Snake Lord rates mention, as the others are no different to the primitive cults found elsewhere in Qaiyore, such as the Stormrider of the Olozog or the totemistic deities of the Onagir. The Panchayyah people predominantly worship the Snake Lord, a fact reinforced by the domination of the Rimriver by the Panchayyah tribe proper whose tribal deitiy is Nagasri. The Panchayyah domination has only reinforced the status of Nagasri amongst the Rimriver tribes, interpreting the tribe's success as a sign of Snake Lord's power. Nagasri is a deity with a dual aspect - a publically acknowledged one and a far more secretive, darker never spoken of aspect. The Snake Lord is publically addressed as the Wise One, the Guardian of Crops, the Confidante, the Righter of Wrongs, the Watchful One, the Dark Saviour, the Lord of Mysteries, the Righteous Serpent. Privately, an in secretive or conspiratorial matters, he is referred to (in hushed tones) as the Knower of the Ancient, the Consuming Serpent, Lord of the Night, the Keeper of Secrets, the Whisperer, the Creeping Hunter, the Vengeful Shadow, Teacher of the Unknownable, the Unseen Serpent. As can be seen from this clear dichotomy, they are almost parallel, clearly showing that Nagasri is an unusually dualistic deity. What is more interesting is that this dualism does not create any internal philosophical or theological conflict for the believer. A devotee worships both aspects of the same deity, referring to one element over another as the situation demands. For example, a wronged woman seeking justice for her own suffering (having not received any from the authorities) would turn to Nagasri in his role as the Righter of Wrongs, whereas a rejected lover might call on Nagasri in his role as the Whisperer or the Vengeful Shadow. A traveller lost in the night would invoke the Dark Saviour (the Dark Saviour would be prayed to be the helpless, the poor and the powerless), as would a devotee surrounded by darkness and evil (the suggestion here it appears is that the Dark Saviour is more powerful than what might beset the devotee) but a thief would pray to the Creeping Hunter. Snakes of all varieties are seen as powerful omens by the Panchayyah, usually good, and are regarded as the emissaries of Nagasri. As such, there is a taboo against harming them. Places infested with snakes are also seen as taboo holy places, where only the shamans of Nagasri, the Nagavallur, may enter. Snake bites are usually seen as a divine punishment, though the person who survives the bite is held to have been forgiven and blessed by Nagasri. Snakes are common symbols in Panchayyah and general Alorathean mythology. The religious imagery of the Panchayyah is highly diverse, but the two most common are the ascendent serpent and the coiled serpent. The ascendent serpent is a serpent rearing back in the manner of a cobra, with two wings raised fully back and the head looking to the heavens. It is commonly held to be the image of the Righteous Serpent. The coiled sperent, is the representative of the darker aspect of Nagasri, in which a wingless serpent coils around a dagger from the tip up to the handle, its head appearing from behind the handle, hissing. This is the normal icon of the Vengeful Shadow. Whether the cult can be traced to the ancient dragons or the Draconians, it is very doubtful, for though tales of winged serpents and the "men of Nagasri" are present in the myths here, the complexity of the theology and mythology suggests a third unknown source. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
ibrahim wrote: > As can be seen from this clear dichotomy, they are almost parallel, > clearly showing that Nagasri is an unusually dualistic deity. What is > more interesting is that this dualism does not create any internal > philosophical or theological conflict for the believer. A devotee > worships both aspects of the same deity, referring to one element over > another as the situation demands. It seems to me that in this religion we've found the origins of the cult of Phos-Skotos in Videssia. Combine this dualism with Creator worship and hatred of all forms of magic, and you can dimly see Phos-Skotos. The question is whether Nagasri acted through the Onagir to create Phos-Skotos and then have the religion grow beyond his control, or whether the religion was created by a mortal familiar with Nagasri in a form where he chose to not participate. Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
In regard to Videssia remember that much of modern Videssia was established by Agatius Fossern, a banished and exiled Archmage of Mir. He was Archmage during the height of Mirish expansion so the area were these tribes are were well within the Empire. Agatius Fossern crimes were such that while the trail was known the procedings are securely looked away. So he very well could be a connection between the two areas. Also the Milkanuri are ancestral worshipers. They beleave strongely in reincarnation. Jason Heaps Jeffersonwrote: ibrahim wrote: > As can be seen from this clear dichotomy, they are almost parallel, > clearly showing that Nagasri is an unusually dualistic deity. What is > more interesting is that this dualism does not create any internal > philosophical or theological conflict for the believer. A devotee > worships both aspects of the same deity, referring to one element over > another as the situation demands. It seems to me that in this religion we've found the origins of the cult of Phos-Skotos in Videssia. Combine this dualism with Creator worship and hatred of all forms of magic, and you can dimly see Phos-Skotos. The question is whether Nagasri acted through the Onagir to create Phos-Skotos and then have the religion grow beyond his control, or whether the religion was created by a mortal familiar with Nagasri in a form where he chose to not participate. Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jason Heaps wrote: >In regard to Videssia remember that much of modern Videssia was established by Agatius Fossern, a banished and exiled Archmage of Mir. He was Archmage during the height of Mirish expansion so the area were these tribes are were well within the Empire. Agatius Fossern crimes were such that while the trail was known the procedings are securely looked away. So he very well could be a connection between the two areas. > >Also the Milkanuri are ancestral worshipers. They beleave strongely in reincarnation. > >Jason Heaps > > > > There probably was some kind of control, or at least direct contact, exerted by Mir during their Imperial period, as magic is used by the Panchayyah, especially amongst their shamans. Not sure of what you mean by the Milakanuri though - the cultural differences between them and the Panchayyah are significant (Panchayyah are Alorathean, the Milakanuri sharing the same ancestry as the Shanari). Given such differences, significant contact would be difficult. As a side note, the founder of the Millat religion was Milakanuri by birth (he went into exile in the Calarnar, where he first received his revelations). Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Jefferson wrote: >ibrahim wrote: > > > >>As can be seen from this clear dichotomy, they are almost parallel, >>clearly showing that Nagasri is an unusually dualistic deity. What is >>more interesting is that this dualism does not create any internal >>philosophical or theological conflict for the believer. A devotee >>worships both aspects of the same deity, referring to one element over >>another as the situation demands. >> >> > >It seems to me that in this religion we've found the origins of the cult of >Phos-Skotos in Videssia. Combine this dualism with Creator worship and hatred >of all forms of magic, and you can dimly see Phos-Skotos. The question is >whether Nagasri acted through the Onagir to create Phos-Skotos and then have >the religion grow beyond his control, or whether the religion was created by a >mortal familiar with Nagasri in a form where he chose to not participate. > >Jefferson (Exquaestio) >http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/ > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > > > > The only problem I see with this is that the Nagavallur, Nagasri's shamans, do use magic (what type and form I'm not sure).... This can be seen in Nagasri's titles "the Lord of Mysteries", "Knower of the Ancient", and "Teacher of the Uknowable". I was actually writing this before the Deity list was put up, so I before I finished the piece on Nagasri, I read this list. There are a number of deities that have similiarities with Nagasri, from all of the pantheons, but none that is clearly identical. As I wrote, I realised that he was more than just another name for Garr or Maracor or any of the good deities, but something else. A contradiction in terms, but nevertheless a dualistic deity that does exist (despite the current conventions of Qaiyore theology). I don't know enough about Phos-Skotos though to say anything either way. What is known of Phos-Skotos? There are similiarities with Coron, in that both deities have creative and destructive aspects, as there are with Demerhaze. But the same applies to Ertoslator to a degree. Even Arrumantha, as Nagasri is worshipped by peasant farmers for his protection of crops from blights and pests. Garr in the role as the Creeping Fear is similiar to Nagasri, but sounds like a far more primitive and brutal deity than Nagasri (who is generally beyond simple Fear and Rage, and certainly does not destroy his loyal followers - at least unnecessarily). Nagasri also has parallels with Scorax The Mad, as Nagasri is also called Teacher of the Unknowable. Overall, Nagasri shares similiarities with both the light and dark pantheons, but I suspect he is a member of neither, but is either a part of a third pantheon, or exists on his own without need of relations or communication with the others (witness the isolation of the Panchayyah for millenia). Nagasri is both loved and feared by his followers, a deity capable of all-embracing warmth, protection and love, and unspeakable horror and cold calculating, inhuman thought. I suspect that his shamans, the Nagavallur in their devotion, seek to learn all that their master teaches them, hopes though that he does not teach them /everything/ that he knows. Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote:> I don't know enough about Phos-Skotos though to say anything either > way. What is known of Phos-Skotos? Phos and Skotos don't actually exist. Phos is supposed to be the god of light and good, while Skotos is his diametric opposite. It was one of the key points about Videssia, as I recall, that they worship beings that truly don't exist at all. Gives the phrase, "worshipping false gods" new meaning. Actually, Phos, Skotos, and Videssia itself are "borrowed" from Harry Turtledove's Videssos series of fantasies. > There are similiarities with Coron, in that both deities have creative > and destructive aspects, as there are with Demerhaze. But the same > applies to Ertoslator to a degree. Even Arrumantha, as Nagasri is > worshipped by peasant farmers for his protection of crops from blights > and pests. Garr in the role as the Creeping Fear is similiar to > Nagasri, but sounds like a far more primitive and brutal deity than > Nagasri (who is generally beyond simple Fear and Rage, and certainly > does not destroy his loyal followers - at least unnecessarily). Nagasri > also has parallels with Scorax The Mad, as Nagasri is also called > Teacher of the Unknowable. Overall, Nagasri shares similiarities with > both the light and dark pantheons, but I suspect he is a member of > neither, but is either a part of a third pantheon, or exists on his own > without need of relations or communication with the others (witness the > isolation of the Panchayyah for millenia). If the Eerith are to be believed, all the Gods of Celandra are just masks of certain aspects of the Creator. Nagasri may just happen to have more aspects behind his mask than most. I'm starting to regret using the term "dark pantheon" to describe the goblin-gods. It implies a certain dualism, and a humanocentric perspective. Another way of looking at it might be that there have been cycles of pantheons: the gods of the lizard-men/draconians came first, and were displaced by the goblin-gods, who in turn were displaced by the gods of Men. Another reason for being careful about using the terms "light" and "dark" is the ambiguous role of Demerhaze: although she is the jailer and guardian of the goblin-gods and demons, and is invoked to protect against demons, she also is invoked by those who wish to raise demons. Neither dark nor light, she stands on the edge. > Nagasri is both loved and feared by his followers, a deity capable of > all-embracing warmth, protection and love, and unspeakable horror and > cold calculating, inhuman thought. I suspect that his shamans, the > Nagavallur in their devotion, seek to learn all that their master > teaches them, hopes though that he does not teach them /everything/ that > he knows. I would think that to most outsiders, the darker aspect of Nagasri comes as a very unpleasant surprise. Andrew > Ibrahim > > > ================================ > Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer > ================================ > This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: >Ibrahim wrote: > >> > > >>I don't know enough about Phos-Skotos though to say anything either >>way. What is known of Phos-Skotos? >> >> > >Phos and Skotos don't actually exist. Phos is supposed to be the god of >light and good, while Skotos is his diametric opposite. It was one of >the key points about Videssia, as I recall, that they worship beings >that truly don't exist at all. Gives the phrase, "worshipping false >gods" new meaning. > >Actually, Phos, Skotos, and Videssia itself are "borrowed" from Harry >Turtledove's Videssos series of fantasies. > > > >>There are similiarities with Coron, in that both deities have creative >>and destructive aspects, as there are with Demerhaze. But the same >>applies to Ertoslator to a degree. Even Arrumantha, as Nagasri is >>worshipped by peasant farmers for his protection of crops from blights >>and pests. Garr in the role as the Creeping Fear is similiar to >>Nagasri, but sounds like a far more primitive and brutal deity than >>Nagasri (who is generally beyond simple Fear and Rage, and certainly >>does not destroy his loyal followers - at least unnecessarily). Nagasri >>also has parallels with Scorax The Mad, as Nagasri is also called >>Teacher of the Unknowable. Overall, Nagasri shares similiarities with >>both the light and dark pantheons, but I suspect he is a member of >>neither, but is either a part of a third pantheon, or exists on his own >>without need of relations or communication with the others (witness the >>isolation of the Panchayyah for millenia). >> >> > >If the Eerith are to be believed, all the Gods of Celandra are just >masks of certain aspects of the Creator. Nagasri may just happen to have >more aspects behind his mask than most. > >I'm starting to regret using the term "dark pantheon" to describe the >goblin-gods. It implies a certain dualism, and a humanocentric >perspective. Another way of looking at it might be that there have been >cycles of pantheons: the gods of the lizard-men/draconians came first, >and were displaced by the goblin-gods, who in turn were displaced by the >gods of Men. > >Another reason for being careful about using the terms "light" and >"dark" is the ambiguous role of Demerhaze: although she is the jailer >and guardian of the goblin-gods and demons, and is invoked to protect >against demons, she also is invoked by those who wish to raise demons. >Neither dark nor light, she stands on the edge. > > All is relative - light and dark might only be appropriate from a human perspective, but reversed for the goblins (and irrelevant for the ban horroth? / not even a question of Eerith?). After what you have said about Demerhaze, I would think that Nagasri would be in a similiar position to Demerhaze, perhaps even in some kind of association with her. Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: >Andrew Janssen wrote: > > > >>I'm starting to regret using the term "dark pantheon" to describe the >>goblin-gods. It implies a certain dualism, and a humanocentric >>perspective. Another way of looking at it might be that there have been >>cycles of pantheons: the gods of the lizard-men/draconians came first, >>and were displaced by the goblin-gods, who in turn were displaced by the >>gods of Men. >> >> >> >> >All is relative - light and dark might only be appropriate from a human >perspective, but reversed for the goblins (and irrelevant for the ban >horroth? / not even a question of Eerith?). > > > I think you're thoroughly right Andrew. Dark pantheon is an appropriate term only from certain human perspectives. I doubt the goblins would worship their deities because of some thrill gained from worshipping "evil". Standards of morality and religion is really relative only to the culture that produced those standards. Having said that though, humans are the dominant species in Qaiyore, and as such the dominant standard for these things is human. So "dark pantheon" isn't necessarily inappropriate, its just perhaps not completely accurate. : ) Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: > The only problem I see with this is that the Nagavallur, Nagasri's > shamans, do use magic (what type and form I'm not sure).... > > This can be seen in Nagasri's titles "the Lord of Mysteries", "Knower of > the Ancient", and "Teacher of the Uknowable". The denial of magic is specific to Videssia, and may very well have been the factor that prevented Nagasri from adopting the religion of Phos-Skotos. > I was actually writing this before the Deity list was put up, so I > before I finished the piece on Nagasri, I read this list. There are a > number of deities that have similiarities with Nagasri, from all of the > pantheons, but none that is clearly identical. As I wrote, I > realised that he was more than just another name for Garr or Maracor > or any of the good deities, but something else. A contradiction in > terms, but nevertheless a dualistic deity that does exist (despite the > current conventions of Qaiyore theology). Yes. Nagasri does seem to be a different individual than any of the gods known to this point. Cultural factors, however, can create changes that could make the same deity nearly unrecognizeable. > I don't know enough about Phos-Skotos though to say anything either > way. What is known of Phos-Skotos? see http://members.tripod.com/~kimril/videssia/humaniti.html Jefferson (Exquaestio) http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: > I'm starting to regret using the term "dark pantheon" to describe the > goblin-gods. It implies a certain dualism, and a humanocentric > perspective. Another way of looking at it might be that there have been In my mind, the list of gods is a compilation of (some of) the biggest god-related religions on Qaiyore. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of smaller religions and cults which circle around various powerful / imagined beings from the Dreaming. And the Dreaming is vast. The number of beings involved with some aspects of life on Celandra is very, very small compared to the total number of "relevant" beings in the Dreaming. So, the term "dark pantheon" certainly gives a wrong idea, and signifies a cultural perspective rather than an absolute one. The goblins certainly don't view their gods as "dark" gods. > cycles of pantheons: the gods of the lizard-men/draconians came first, > and were displaced by the goblin-gods, who in turn were displaced by the > gods of Men. This is much better approach. But perhaps not the right one either. Saying of the gods that they are gods of the lizard-men somehow binds the god to the lizard-men. Whereas the gods have, or may have, an agenda of their own, quite apart from the lizard-men. It's just that the lizard-men have taken to worshipping certain gods, and the gods have decided to let them do it for a while... Certainly some gods adopt certain cultures or races, even derive their Authority or at least focus from them. But there are many other possible sources of focus, and the gods (beings in the Dreaming) exist quite apart from whatever happens on Celandra. juuso ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.