The theological fallacy of non or anti-magicalism on the Path of Shanar in the light of the revelations of He Who Is One, as conveyed through the Holy Conveyor, Faymiyun al Shawari, upon whom the salutations of the Infinite are. Many today ask of what He Who Is One has taught regarding the separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, and the apparent prohibition on magic that is held to stem from those verses of the Scrolls that discuss this. In response to these sincere questions, by devout believers, I, Arlhan van Kahshaar, Keeper of the Holy Tower of the South, have produced the following 10 points to clarify the matter for the devout servants of He Who Is One. The ultimate truth for humanity is: None but He Who Is One is worthy of worship, He being the Pan-Creator, the Original, the First. It is He Who Is One who says, "Be!". 1. Magic or sorcery, and lesser deities exist. 2. Such lesser deities are finite beings, existing within the Greater Reality rather than without, and possessing a beginning and an end. It is the lesser deities and other finite beings that are or be. 3. Such lesser deities are not manifestations of the Pan-Creator, but creations, finite, and eventually, mortal. 4. Being finite beings, it is permissible to form compacts or agreements with such beings that allow the Believer to derive benefit from the agreement, provided that the fundamental tenet of faith is not violated, and the third point, the finity of the lesser deities, is not abandoned or comprised. 5. Regarding the Separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, the Other-Real from the Real, tampering in such things are impermissible for understanding and believing people. 6. The use of magic is not an act of the neglect of the Separation, as the use of magic for the betterment of Man and the glorification of the Path is noble. This is because magic is an element existing with and within the Real, ant not solely part of the Dreaming. 7. It is an uttermost sin to breach the Separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, and a grave blasphemy (as it seeks to overturn the Natural Order as established by the Pan-Creator by joining the Real and Other-Real). 8. It is a duty of the Believer to oppose such joinings when able. 9. Magics which do not conflict with this highest of prohibitions made by He Who Is One are therefore permissible to the believer, porvided they are in accordance with the fundamental tenet of the faith and the fourth point. 10. Joinings of the Real and Other-Real are defined as joinings initiated from within the Real. Thus, it is a rebellion against the Natural Order, of the Highest Nature, for Man to open a bridge with the Other-Real. Let this be a guidance and instruction to those on the Path, and those who seek guidance and assistance in understanding the Real, the Dreaming and the Greater Truth of existence. The Salutations of He Who Is One be upon all who read this with open minds, Arlhan van Kahshaar, Keeper of the Holy Tower of the South New Tirmaeir. Spring, 1453 ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote: > The theological fallacy of non or anti-magicalism on the Path of Shanar > in the light of the revelations of He Who Is One, as conveyed through > the Holy Conveyor, Faymiyun al Shawari, upon whom the salutations of the > Infinite are. > > Many today ask of what He Who Is One has taught regarding the separation > of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, and the apparent prohibition > on magic that is held to stem from those verses of the Scrolls that > discuss this. > > In response to these sincere questions, by devout believers, I, Arlhan > van Kahshaar, Keeper of the Holy Tower of the South, have produced the > following 10 points to clarify the matter for the devout servants of He > Who Is One. > > The ultimate truth for humanity is: None but He Who Is One is worthy of > worship, He being the Pan-Creator, the Original, the First. It is He > Who Is One who says, "Be!". According to the texts, what is worship? How does does an offering in a temple differ from taxes given to the government? How is kneeling to pray distinguished from bowing to a temporal superior? > 1. Magic or sorcery, and lesser deities exist. OK > 2. Such lesser deities are finite beings, existing within the Greater > Reality rather than without, and possessing a beginning and an end. It > is the lesser deities and other finite beings that are or be. Exquaestio's terminology is a bit different, but no problems here. > 3. Such lesser deities are not manifestations of the Pan-Creator, but > creations, finite, and eventually, mortal. Things are starting to get sticky. > 4. Being finite beings, it is permissible to form compacts or > agreements with such beings that allow the Believer to derive benefit > from the agreement, provided that the fundamental tenet of faith is not > violated, and the third point, the finity of the lesser deities, is not > abandoned or comprised. I'm not sure what this is saying. What's the "fundamental tenet of faith." > 5. Regarding the Separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, > the Other-Real from the Real, tampering in such things are impermissible > for understanding and believing people. And here's where quaestae become heretics. They do not hold the boundary between World and Dreaming sacred. Indeed, much of what they do crosses that boundary. Jefferson http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
The 10 points is the beginning of a schism, and this is the first thing to keep in mind regarding it. Jefferson wrote: >Ibrahim wrote: > > > >>The theological fallacy of non or anti-magicalism on the Path of Shanar >>in the light of the revelations of He Who Is One, as conveyed through >>the Holy Conveyor, Faymiyun al Shawari, upon whom the salutations of the >>Infinite are. >> >>Many today ask of what He Who Is One has taught regarding the separation >>of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, and the apparent prohibition >>on magic that is held to stem from those verses of the Scrolls that >>discuss this. >> >>In response to these sincere questions, by devout believers, I, Arlhan >>van Kahshaar, Keeper of the Holy Tower of the South, have produced the >>following 10 points to clarify the matter for the devout servants of He >>Who Is One. >> >>The ultimate truth for humanity is: None but He Who Is One is worthy of >>worship, He being the Pan-Creator, the Original, the First. It is He >>Who Is One who says, "Be!". >> >> > >According to the texts, what is worship? How does does an offering in a >temple differ from taxes given to the government? How is kneeling to pray >distinguished from bowing to a temporal superior? > > This is the principal/fundamental tenet of the Millat faith,followed by the concept of the Separation. > > >>1. Magic or sorcery, and lesser deities exist. >> >> > >OK > > > >>2. Such lesser deities are finite beings, existing within the Greater >>Reality rather than without, and possessing a beginning and an end. It >>is the lesser deities and other finite beings that are or be. >> >> > >Exquaestio's terminology is a bit different, but no problems here. > > > >>3. Such lesser deities are not manifestations of the Pan-Creator, but >>creations, finite, and eventually, mortal. >> >> > >Things are starting to get sticky. > > Mortal in the sense that they have a beginning. Millati theology defines only the Pan-Creator as immortal, as only He Who Is One has no beginning. > > >>4. Being finite beings, it is permissible to form compacts or >>agreements with such beings that allow the Believer to derive benefit >>from the agreement, provided that the fundamental tenet of faith is not >>violated, and the third point, the finity of the lesser deities, is not >>abandoned or comprised. >> >> > >I'm not sure what this is saying. What's the "fundamental tenet of faith." > > The "principal/fundamental tenet" above. Not exactly a realistic concept i think, but a significant reinterpretation of a Millati belief. Basically there is nothing wrong with receiving authority from a deity, provided that that grant of authority does not require worship of that deity. Hence the "permissibility" of compacts with deities, and derive benefits (authority), if the fundamental tenet (exclusive worship) is not comprised. As this is the beginning of a schism, later generations may interpret this, and the term "worship" in different ways. Authority-derived magic though probably will not be significantly practiced by Millati in the future, simply for the difficulty in making such an agreement with deities, and because it would be probably a fairly grey area for many. > > >>5. Regarding the Separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, >>the Other-Real from the Real, tampering in such things are impermissible >>for understanding and believing people. >> >> > >And here's where quaestae become heretics. They do not hold the boundary >between World and Dreaming sacred. Indeed, much of what they do crosses >that boundary. > > This is the second fundamental tenet of the Millati faith, one more rigid than the vaguer arguements against magic. I realise crossing the boundary, so to speak, and magic are almost identical, but this is a significant differentiation in the mind of the Millati believer. Thanks for the comments Jefferson, Ibrahim ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
>>Ibrahim wrote:
>>
>>>The ultimate truth for humanity is: None but He Who Is One is worthy of
>>>worship, He being the Pan-Creator, the Original, the First. It is He
>>>Who Is One who says, "Be!".
Exquaestio theologians would not disagree with this statement. (The
opinion of common believers is different, of course.) However, humanity,
subject to its limitations, will worship many things and it is part of the
purpose of religion to steer worship towards the helpful and away from the
harmful. Or . . . Feroze is worshipped not because he is worthy of
worship, but because his worship is less harmful than other forms of worship.
>>According to the texts, what is worship? How does does an offering in a
>>temple differ from taxes given to the government? How is kneeling to pray
>>distinguished from bowing to a temporal superior?
>
> This is the principal/fundamental tenet of the Millat faith,followed by
> the concept of the Separation.
Yes; but how to distinguish worship from obedience?
>>>1. Magic or sorcery, and lesser deities exist.
>>
>>OK
>>
>>>2. Such lesser deities are finite beings, existing within the Greater
>>>Reality rather than without, and possessing a beginning and an end. It
>>>is the lesser deities and other finite beings that are or be.
>>
>>Exquaestio's terminology is a bit different, but no problems here.
The difference between mortal (a human) and The Ultimate (Exquaestio's term
for The Creator) is infinite both in measure and in kind. Considering that
difference as a journey, there are many stages occupied by different types
of entities. Those entities that mortals call gods are but slightly
further along that journey, and mortals cannot relate to those entities
even further along, but still less than the creator. Mortals can relate to
The Ultimate, but it is easier to relate to the gods.
Within Exquaestio it would be considered blasphemous to attempt to ascribe
a particular trait ("existing without the Greater Reality") to The Ultimate.
>>>3. Such lesser deities are not manifestations of the Pan-Creator, but
>>>creations, finite, and eventually, mortal.
>>
>>Things are starting to get sticky.
>
> Mortal in the sense that they have a beginning. Millati theology
> defines only the Pan-Creator as immortal, as only He Who Is One has no
> beginning.
Being "closer" to The Ultimate, deities manifest his will more readily.
However, not being The Ultimate, a deity's manifestation of that will may
not be properly applied.
Again, the limit "no beginning" would be consider blasphemous, limiting The
Ultimate. Exquaestio theologians would say The Ultimate has all
beginnings, a beginning, and no beginning.
>>>4. Being finite beings, it is permissible to form compacts or
>>>agreements with such beings that allow the Believer to derive benefit
>>>from the agreement, provided that the fundamental tenet of faith is not
>>>violated, and the third point, the finity of the lesser deities, is not
>>>abandoned or comprised.
>>
>>I'm not sure what this is saying. What's the "fundamental tenet of faith."
>
> The "principal/fundamental tenet" above. Not exactly a realistic
> concept i think, but a significant reinterpretation of a Millati
> belief. Basically there is nothing wrong with receiving authority from
> a deity, provided that that grant of authority does not require worship
> of that deity. Hence the "permissibility" of compacts with deities, and
> derive benefits (authority), if the fundamental tenet (exclusive
> worship) is not comprised.
>
> As this is the beginning of a schism, later generations may interpret
> this, and the term "worship" in different ways.
>
> Authority-derived magic though probably will not be significantly
> practiced by Millati in the future, simply for the difficulty in making
> such an agreement with deities, and because it would be probably a
> fairly grey area for many.
Feroze _accepts_ worship, but does not _require_ worship. His
relationships with his followers based upon that of a family. Depending on
the exact interpretation of "worship" Exquaestio may or may not be
acceptable to various Millati sects. (BTW, Exquaestio and Millat Shanar
probably encountered each other in Mirrish Tirmar for the first time in
1453 or 1454.)
>>>5. Regarding the Separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land,
>>>the Other-Real from the Real, tampering in such things are impermissible
>>>for understanding and believing people.
>>
>>And here's where quaestae become heretics. They do not hold the boundary
>>between World and Dreaming sacred. Indeed, much of what they do crosses
>>that boundary.
>
> This is the second fundamental tenet of the Millati faith, one more
> rigid than the vaguer arguements against magic. I realise crossing the
> boundary, so to speak, and magic are almost identical, but this is a
> significant differentiation in the mind of the Millati believer.
One of the tenets of Exquaestio is that it is unacceptable (sinful) for the
greater to "force" the lesser. The lesser may only be "taught" and
"prevented." However, the lesser are under no such constraint as regards
the greater. Boundaries, such as that between The World and The Dreaming,
are a prevention to keep mortals from harming themselves, and, as such,
have nothing sacred about them. (Though the dangers of pressing such
boundaries should be recognized.)
In certain specific cases Feroze has deliberately eased this boundary. The
rohain are selected by their fellows and given the ability to separate body
and spirit. Other abilities break the boundaries of time and space.
Though not currently available, they have the ability to call things from
The Dreaming and into The World. As mortals given the abilities of spirits
I imagine that they would be considered abominations to Millat Shanar.
***
I have to say that I am struck by the number of similarities between Millat
Shanar and Exquaestio. Though disagreeing on certain fundamentals there is
a commonality there that neither seems to share with other beliefs.
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Ibrahim wrote:> The ultimate truth for humanity is: None but He Who Is One is worthy of > worship, He being the Pan-Creator, the Original, the First. It is He > Who Is One who says, "Be!". > 1. Magic or sorcery, and lesser deities exist. > 2. Such lesser deities are finite beings, existing within the Greater > Reality rather than without, and possessing a beginning and an end. It > is the lesser deities and other finite beings that are or be. > 3. Such lesser deities are not manifestations of the Pan-Creator, but > creations, finite, and eventually, mortal. Most Sedonians would disagree with points 2 and 3. I'm not sure, but I think the Eerith might also disagree, or at the very least consider the Millati position to be a gross oversimplifcation. > 4. Being finite beings, it is permissible to form compacts or > agreements with such beings that allow the Believer to derive benefit > from the agreement, provided that the fundamental tenet of faith is not > violated, and the third point, the finity of the lesser deities, is not > abandoned or comprised. > 5. Regarding the Separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, > the Other-Real from the Real, tampering in such things are impermissible > for understanding and believing people. Here the Sedonians and the Mir start to get in trouble. > 6. The use of magic is not an act of the neglect of the Separation, as > the use of magic for the betterment of Man and the glorification of the > Path is noble. This is because magic is an element existing with and > within the Real, ant not solely part of the Dreaming. > 7. It is an uttermost sin to breach the Separation of the Dreaming from > the Unyielding Land, and a grave blasphemy (as it seeks to overturn the > Natural Order as established by the Pan-Creator by joining the Real and > Other-Real). Yep, Mir's really in trouble here, what with the Gate and all. > 8. It is a duty of the Believer to oppose such joinings when able. > 9. Magics which do not conflict with this highest of prohibitions made > by He Who Is One are therefore permissible to the believer, porvided > they are in accordance with the fundamental tenet of the faith and the > fourth point. > 10. Joinings of the Real and Other-Real are defined as joinings > initiated from within the Real. Thus, it is a rebellion against the > Natural Order, of the Highest Nature, for Man to open a bridge with the > Other-Real. Hm. If I'm reading points 5,7,8, and 10 right, the fact that Empress Yzara had three children by the Vraa'al High Lord constitutes a major blasphemy to the Millati, and, indeed, Prince Barnardus, Prince Arden, and Princess Irinia would be considered Abominations. Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Andrew Janssen wrote: >Ibrahim wrote: > > >>The ultimate truth for humanity is: None but He Who Is One is worthy of worship, He being the Pan-Creator, the Original, the First. It is He Who Is One who says, "Be!". >>1. Magic or sorcery, and lesser deities exist. >>2. Such lesser deities are finite beings, existing within the Greater Reality rather than without, and possessing a beginning and an end. It is the lesser deities and other finite beings that are or be. >>3. Such lesser deities are not manifestations of the Pan-Creator, but creations, finite, and eventually, mortal. >> >> >Most Sedonians would disagree with points 2 and 3. I'm not sure, but I think the Eerith might also disagree, or at the very least consider the Millati position to be a gross oversimplifcation. > > The Millati arguement would be that though the deities appear to be immortal from a human perspective, they are not truly immortal as they are created. The Millati fundamentally disagree with the belief that all beings are manifestations of the Pan-Creator, believing instead that they are created and are therefore creations. No being is therefore truly immortal if they have have a beginning, from the viewpoint of Millati theology, and therefore not truly divine. >>4. Being finite beings, it is permissible to form compacts or agreements with such beings that allow the Believer to derive benefit >>from the agreement, provided that the fundamental tenet of faith is not violated, and the third point, the finity of the lesser deities, is not abandoned or comprised. >>5. Regarding the Separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, the Other-Real from the Real, tampering in such things are impermissible for understanding and believing people. >> >> >Here the Sedonians and the Mir start to get in trouble. > > Perhaps this is a little vague for the average Sedonian, Mir, Kaeirean or even Millati. : ) Point 4 is a vague allowance using divine magic if granted by some deity, provided a suitably termed agreement with the god could be made (if such a thing is indeed possible). Point 5 is really a preamble of sorts to point 7. If opening a gateway to the Dreaming is wrong, then fiddling around with the lock or even the key is asking for trouble. >>6. The use of magic is not an act of the neglect of the Separation, as the use of magic for the betterment of Man and the glorification of the Path is noble. This is because magic is an element existing with and within the Real, ant not solely part of the Dreaming. >>7. It is an uttermost sin to breach the Separation of the Dreaming from the Unyielding Land, and a grave blasphemy (as it seeks to overturn the Natural Order as established by the Pan-Creator by joining the Real and Other-Real). >> >> >Yep, Mir's really in trouble here, what with the Gate and all. > > Yes. : ) Note though that this is attempts to reach the Dreaming from Celandra (nothing is said of the reverse). >>8. It is a duty of the Believer to oppose such joinings when able. >>9. Magics which do not conflict with this highest of prohibitions made by He Who Is One are therefore permissible to the believer, provided they are in accordance with the fundamental tenet of the faith and the fourth point. >>10. Joinings of the Real and Other-Real are defined as joinings initiated from within the Real. Thus, it is a rebellion against the >>Natural Order, of the Highest Nature, for Man to open a bridge with the Other-Real. >> >> >Hm. If I'm reading points 5,7,8, and 10 right, the fact that Empress Yzara had three children by the Vraa'al High Lord constitutes a major blasphemy to the Millati, and, indeed, Prince Barnardus, Prince Arden, and Princess Irinia would be considered Abominations. > > No, certainly not. Perhaps I was too vague in my language. By joining, I mean not actual physical copulation, but any opening up of a bridge to the Dreaming by inhabitants of Celandra. This is the rebellion against the Natural Order, according to the Millati worldview. The terms the Millati will probably start using for such gateways would be joining, bridging, bridges etc. This is why the term Separation carries special significance in the Millati worldview. The Vraa'al are creatures of the Dreaming who entered Celandra (a non-issue for the Millati as they came from the Outside to the Inside), thus in the Millati mind there would be nothing wrong with them. What had been wrong was the opening up of the gateway to the Dreaming by people within Celandra (from the Inside to the Outside), which constituted the blasphemy. Once the Vraa'al entered Celandra, and especially after the gateway closed, they became creatures of Celandra. The 10 Points will lead to a broadening of the Millati worldview in some respects, but a narrowing in regards to specific magical acts - certainly things such as the Mirrish Gate project. I suspect it will lead to a high level of toleration for magic and other religions (indeed, adoption or incorporation of certain things), but fanatical zealotry in regards to things like the Mirrish Gate. The recent, though yet unknown, demonic bondings carried out by Goblin shamans would also constitute a grave evil, one needing to be hunted down and destroyed if it was discovered. Such a tendency would also lend itself to a martial/magical order dedicated to detecting and preventing gateways, and pursuing such instances. Ibrahim >Andrew >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net. > > > > ================================ Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer ================================ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
ibrahim wrote: > Andrew Janssen wrote: >>Hm. If I'm reading points 5,7,8, and 10 right, the fact that Empress Yzara had three children by the Vraa'al High Lord constitutes a major blasphemy to the Millati, and, indeed, Prince Barnardus, Prince Arden, and Princess Irinia would be considered Abominations. >> >> > > No, certainly not. Perhaps I was too vague in my language. > > By joining, I mean not actual physical copulation, but any opening up of > a bridge to the Dreaming by inhabitants of Celandra. This is the > rebellion against the Natural Order, according to the Millati > worldview. The terms the Millati will probably start using for such > gateways would be joining, bridging, bridges etc. This is why the term > Separation carries special significance in the Millati worldview. > > The Vraa'al are creatures of the Dreaming who entered Celandra (a > non-issue for the Millati as they came from the Outside to the Inside), > thus in the Millati mind there would be nothing wrong with them. What > had been wrong was the opening up of the gateway to the Dreaming by > people within Celandra (from the Inside to the Outside), which > constituted the blasphemy. Once the Vraa'al entered Celandra, and > especially after the gateway closed, they became creatures of Celandra. Ok, that clarifies things a bit. Thanks. Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
