[Cel] [Fwd: ship technology in the midsea]

And in hindsight, sails probably won't completely overtake oar-power 
until the advent of gunpowder.  Thus I suspect that most Midsea fleets 
are dominated by predominantly oar-powered ships.

cheers again,

Ibrahim

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	ship technology in the midsea
Date: 	Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:24:49 +0800
From: 	ibrahim 
To: 	Celandra 



Dear folks,

Rereading the postings about technology levels in Qaiyore, and wikipedia 
articles on naval technology.  According our most recent discussions, 
transport technology in Qaiyore is 15-17.  The more sophisticated 
seafaring societies being at 17, with "COMPASS, LATEEN SAIL (sailing 
into wind), Double-masted Ships, & STERN POST RUDDERS (for steering)". 

Level 18 includes 3-masted ship (excluding carracks and caravels 
therefore from Qaiyore), so the most advanced sailing ship available 
would be a 2 masted sailing vessels, be they Arab style dhows or 
two-masted galleys with oars.

Thus, in terms of naval technology, is the Midsea at an equivalent to 
the 14th century technology of the Mediterranean?  Anything past this 
period would see the advent of 3-masted ships (carracks, caravels, 
galleons and man-o-wars).

Asking this as I'm currently trying to work out manpower requirements 
for the Kaeirean fleet, and there is a significant difference between 
oared galleys with two masts, and multiple masted sailing ships without 
oars.

cheers,

Ibrahim




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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

ibrahim wrote:

> Rereading the postings about technology levels in Qaiyore, and wikipedia 
> articles on naval technology.  According our most recent discussions, 
> transport technology in Qaiyore is 15-17.  The more sophisticated 
> seafaring societies being at 17, with "COMPASS, LATEEN SAIL (sailing 
> into wind), Double-masted Ships, & STERN POST RUDDERS (for steering)". 
> 
> Level 18 includes 3-masted ship (excluding carracks and caravels 
> therefore from Qaiyore), so the most advanced sailing ship available 
> would be a 2 masted sailing vessels, be they Arab style dhows or 
> two-masted galleys with oars.

This is one of those places where the Aria development scale is screwy. 
Stern-post rudders actually postdate 3-masted vessels by a good deal, and 
the galleon used a steering oar not a rudder.  The rudder mention can 
probably be replaced with frame construction replacing shell construction, 
though I don't recall exactly when this development took place.

I was also under the impression that carracks and caravels _were_ 
two-masted ships.  Certainly the portuguese exploration vessels were 
two-masted vessels, whatever they were called.

> Thus, in terms of naval technology, is the Midsea at an equivalent to 
> the 14th century technology of the Mediterranean?  Anything past this 
> period would see the advent of 3-masted ships (carracks, caravels, 
> galleons and man-o-wars).

Yes (but see below).

> Asking this as I'm currently trying to work out manpower requirements 
> for the Kaeirean fleet, and there is a significant difference between 
> oared galleys with two masts, and multiple masted sailing ships without 
> oars.
>
 > And in hindsight, sails probably won't completely overtake oar-power
 > until the advent of gunpowder.  Thus I suspect that most Midsea fleets
 > are dominated by predominantly oar-powered ships.

The Midsea is an inland sea, and the ships which travel it can be built 
much more lightly and cheaply than those intended to travel the outer 
oceans.  I also don't see any strong seafaring nations to promote the 
building of heavier ships generally suitable for the outer oceans.  Without 
the requirement for the heavier (and more expensive) construction 
three-masted vessels and stern-post rudders will be a long time coming. 
However, this doesn't preclude the existence of the sophisticated keels and 
rigging we associate with three-masted vessels.

(Oops, I just remembered the Ka'Shari, who _do_ build ships for the outer 
oceans.  So heavier vessel types would be quite possible, though expense 
probably keeps many from being built.)

Regardless of the availability of galleys, most trade will be carried by 
sailed vessels.  Galleys are warships and hardly ever bothered with more 
than one mast.  However, galleys are not the only form of warship, and are 
only practical with a sufficient supply of slaves.  While "ram and board" 
galleys are more effective, the Romans proved against the Carthaginians 
that boarding from sailed vessels can also win naval battles.

So, as I hope you can see, the distinction of sail vs. oar isn't quite as 
clear cut as most people think.

The presence of magic aboard a ship also changes things, giving an 
effective ranged attack.  Even if the vessel without a mage is more 
maneuverable and can close, it will be taking damage before it manages to 
do any.  I imagine the domination of Parglug in the southern MidSea is 
based on the regular presence of priests of Marmdal aboard their sea craft.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/



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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

Jefferson wrote:

>ibrahim wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Rereading the postings about technology levels in Qaiyore, and wikipedia 
>>articles on naval technology.  According our most recent discussions, 
>>transport technology in Qaiyore is 15-17.  The more sophisticated 
>>seafaring societies being at 17, with "COMPASS, LATEEN SAIL (sailing 
>>into wind), Double-masted Ships, & STERN POST RUDDERS (for steering)". 
>>
>>Level 18 includes 3-masted ship (excluding carracks and caravels 
>>therefore from Qaiyore), so the most advanced sailing ship available 
>>would be a 2 masted sailing vessels, be they Arab style dhows or 
>>two-masted galleys with oars.
>>    
>>
>
>This is one of those places where the Aria development scale is screwy. 
>Stern-post rudders actually postdate 3-masted vessels by a good deal, and 
>the galleon used a steering oar not a rudder.  The rudder mention can 
>probably be replaced with frame construction replacing shell construction, 
>though I don't recall exactly when this development took place.
>
>I was also under the impression that carracks and caravels _were_ 
>two-masted ships.  Certainly the portuguese exploration vessels were 
>two-masted vessels, whatever they were called.
>  
>
I guess the line is blurred here.  The sources i looked at talked about 
3 masted carracks and caravels, and were the prelude to heavier galleons 
etc.



>>Asking this as I'm currently trying to work out manpower requirements 
>>for the Kaeirean fleet, and there is a significant difference between 
>>oared galleys with two masts, and multiple masted sailing ships without 
>>oars.
>>
>>    
>>
> > And in hindsight, sails probably won't completely overtake oar-power
> > until the advent of gunpowder.  Thus I suspect that most Midsea fleets
> > are dominated by predominantly oar-powered ships.
>
>The Midsea is an inland sea, and the ships which travel it can be built 
>much more lightly and cheaply than those intended to travel the outer 
>oceans.  I also don't see any strong seafaring nations to promote the 
>building of heavier ships generally suitable for the outer oceans.  Without 
>the requirement for the heavier (and more expensive) construction 
>three-masted vessels and stern-post rudders will be a long time coming. 
>However, this doesn't preclude the existence of the sophisticated keels and 
>rigging we associate with three-masted vessels.
>  
>
So we're probably talking about two-masted ships being the standard for 
the more complicated ships in the Midsea? 

>(Oops, I just remembered the Ka'Shari, who _do_ build ships for the outer 
>oceans.  So heavier vessel types would be quite possible', though expense 
>probably keeps many from being built.)
>  
>
You're right.  They're probably the ocean going equivalent of science 
fiction's generation ships" - huge, sturdy and designed to last (not to 
mention house whole clans).  I have the image of one of those Victorian 
hulks in mind when thinking about the Ka'Shari ships... I can't imagine 
the outer oceans to be very calm places.

>Regardless of the availability of galleys, most trade will be carried by 
>sailed vessels.  Galleys are warships and hardly ever bothered with more 
>than one mast.  However, galleys are not the only form of warship, and are 
>only practical with a sufficient supply of slaves.  While "ram and board" 
>galleys are more effective, the Romans proved against the Carthaginians 
>that boarding from sailed vessels can also win naval battles.
>  
>
Galleys were used by Venice in the 13th-15th century, and by other 
nations in the same period.  I understood it to be they were only dealt 
the final deathblow by Portuguese sails developments as a result of 
Portugal's travels between the Atlantic and the Indian Oceans.  In the 
Venetian case, ,much of the state fleet, as well as the much larger 
number of private vessels, were small, light galleys (1 row of oars with 
3 rowers) with 2 masts.  The oarsmen were combinations of criminals, 
slaves and paid rowers (i think the employed rowers were more for the 
state fleet during times of war).

The Venetian example is the main reason why I talked about oared galleys 
over sail-only ships.

A fleet of forty light galleys (using the Venetian example above, which 
had 120 oars) would require some 28000 rowers to power them.  Such a 
number, even if tempered by convicted criminals and the vague possiblity 
of salaried rowers, still would necessitate a huge number of slaves.  
And a thriving Midsea-wide (probably Qaiyore-wide, slaves usually coming 
from the periphery not the core) slave industry, with important 
political, social and economic (not to mention moral/religious) 
implications.
 


>So, as I hope you can see, the distinction of sail vs. oar isn't quite as 
>clear cut as most people think.
>  
>
I must confess that military and technological history isn't really my 
forte in any way, shape or form.  A dominance of sails would certainly 
make manpower less of an issue though .

>The presence of magic aboard a ship also changes things, giving an 
>effective ranged attack.  Even if the vessel without a mage is more 
>maneuverable and can close, it will be taking damage before it manages to 
>do any.  I imagine the domination of Parglug in the southern MidSea is 
>based on the regular presence of priests of Marmdal aboard their sea craft.
>  
>
Weather-magic and battle-magic would be of strategic importance, 
therefore, to seafaring nations.  I can imagine such nations investing 
in the education of sorcerers with such abilities, just as nations in 
Earth invested in navigation schools and maritime schools.

cheers jefferson,

Ibrahim


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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

Ibrahim wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
> 
  >>Regardless of the availability of galleys, most trade will be 
carried by
>>sailed vessels.  Galleys are warships and hardly ever bothered with more 
>>than one mast.  However, galleys are not the only form of warship, and are 
>>only practical with a sufficient supply of slaves.  While "ram and board" 
>>galleys are more effective, the Romans proved against the Carthaginians 
>>that boarding from sailed vessels can also win naval battles.
>> 
>>
> 
> Galleys were used by Venice in the 13th-15th century, and by other 
> nations in the same period.  I understood it to be they were only dealt 
> the final deathblow by Portuguese sails developments as a result of 
> Portugal's travels between the Atlantic and the Indian Oceans.  In the 
> Venetian case, ,much of the state fleet, as well as the much larger 
> number of private vessels, were small, light galleys (1 row of oars with 
> 3 rowers) with 2 masts.  The oarsmen were combinations of criminals, 
> slaves and paid rowers (i think the employed rowers were more for the 
> state fleet during times of war).
> 
> The Venetian example is the main reason why I talked about oared galleys 
> over sail-only ships.
> 
> A fleet of forty light galleys (using the Venetian example above, which 
> had 120 oars) would require some 28000 rowers to power them.  Such a 
> number, even if tempered by convicted criminals and the vague possiblity 
> of salaried rowers, still would necessitate a huge number of slaves.  
> And a thriving Midsea-wide (probably Qaiyore-wide, slaves usually coming 
> from the periphery not the core) slave industry, with important 
> political, social and economic (not to mention moral/religious) 
> implications.
>  

How do you get 28,000 rowers? I assume you must have more than one rower 
to an oar, because 28,000 divided by 40 is 700. That also means that 
there must be multiple banks of oars with an uneven number of people on 
each oar, because 700 is not divisible by 120.

In contrast, the Sedonian navy is able to crew a fleet of 42 ships of 
varying size, from deceres down to liburnae, and maintain a small shore 
establishment, with 10,800 sailors. They don't carry replacement rowers, 
but that doesn't matter much because multi-banked galleys only used all 
their banks of oars in battle.

Andrew

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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>Ibrahim wrote:
>  
>
>>Jefferson wrote:
>>    
>>
>
>
>How do you get 28,000 rowers? I assume you must have more than one rower 
>to an oar, because 28,000 divided by 40 is 700. That also means that 
>there must be multiple banks of oars with an uneven number of people on 
>each oar, because 700 is not divisible by 120.
>
>In contrast, the Sedonian navy is able to crew a fleet of 42 ships of 
>varying size, from deceres down to liburnae, and maintain a small shore 
>establishment, with 10,800 sailors. They don't carry replacement rowers, 
>but that doesn't matter much because multi-banked galleys only used all 
>their banks of oars in battle.
>
>Andrew
>
>  
>
Unless i'm reading it wrong, the Venetian model i'm talking about is a 
two-masted galley with centred rudder, and 120+ oars in a single bank 
powered by 3 rowers each.

Ibrahim


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>
>
>  
>



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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

Jefferson wrote:
> Ibrahim wrote:
>>Jefferson wrote:
>>>
>>>I was also under the impression that carracks and caravels _were_ 
>>>two-masted ships.  Certainly the portuguese exploration vessels were 
>>>two-masted vessels, whatever they were called.
>>
>>I guess the line is blurred here.  The sources i looked at talked about 
>>3 masted carracks and caravels, and were the prelude to heavier galleons 
>>etc.
> 
> Since it looks like Qaiyore is right on this dividing line I'll check my 
> references and get back to the group on this.

OK.  I've checked out a few things, and while I haven't found any 
definitive answers I have reached some conclusions.

The caravel has either two or three masts, and earlier vessels are more 
likely to have two masts.  Depending on your opinion of what constitutes 
"three-masted" technology caravels like Columbus's Nina (the Pinta may have 
been a two-masted vessel) may or may not qualify.  Personally, I would say 
they don't.  The ships aren't really designed to carry three masts, the 
third mast is more of an afterthought.  This seem more like a "useful 
prototype" than a full technology.

The carrack, on the other hand, is a proper three-masted vessel.  The Santa 
Maria is a relatively primitive example, but was properly rigged for 
three-masted use.

I'd put the dividing line for three-masted vessels at 1450 Europe.  As this 
pertains to the MidSea I see the technology decision resting with the 
Ka'Shari.  If the Ka'Shari have three-masted vessels then they're likely in 
the process of being adopted by the MidSea shipbuilders.  However, the 
Ka'Shari wouldn't _have_ to of developed three-masted technology.

I would say that two-masted vessels are standard on the MidSea, although 
experimental three-masted vessels exist, until someone uses an action to 
develop proper three-masted technology.

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/


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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

Jefferson wrote:

>Jefferson wrote:
>  
>
>>Ibrahim wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Jefferson wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I was also under the impression that carracks and caravels _were_ 
>>>>two-masted ships.  Certainly the portuguese exploration vessels were 
>>>>two-masted vessels, whatever they were called.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I guess the line is blurred here.  The sources i looked at talked about 
>>>3 masted carracks and caravels, and were the prelude to heavier galleons 
>>>etc.
>>>      
>>>
>>Since it looks like Qaiyore is right on this dividing line I'll check my 
>>references and get back to the group on this.
>>    
>>
>
>OK.  I've checked out a few things, and while I haven't found any 
>definitive answers I have reached some conclusions.
>
>The caravel has either two or three masts, and earlier vessels are more 
>likely to have two masts.  Depending on your opinion of what constitutes 
>"three-masted" technology caravels like Columbus's Nina (the Pinta may have 
>been a two-masted vessel) may or may not qualify.  Personally, I would say 
>they don't.  The ships aren't really designed to carry three masts, the 
>third mast is more of an afterthought.  This seem more like a "useful 
>prototype" than a full technology.
>
>The carrack, on the other hand, is a proper three-masted vessel.  The Santa 
>Maria is a relatively primitive example, but was properly rigged for 
>three-masted use.
>
>I'd put the dividing line for three-masted vessels at 1450 Europe.  As this 
>pertains to the MidSea I see the technology decision resting with the 
>Ka'Shari.  If the Ka'Shari have three-masted vessels then they're likely in 
>the process of being adopted by the MidSea shipbuilders.  However, the 
>Ka'Shari wouldn't _have_ to of developed three-masted technology.
>
>I would say that two-masted vessels are standard on the MidSea, although 
>experimental three-masted vessels exist, until someone uses an action to 
>develop proper three-masted technology.
>  
>

This is the sort of thing the Kaeireans are increasingly looking at, as 
part of their commerce policy. 

The main Kaeirean shipyards, in the Arsenal of Kahshaartown, contains a 
good number of shipwrights etc from the Ka'Shari Creole that lives in 
Kahshaartown, so a good portion of Ka'Shari ship building practices have 
been imparted to the shipbuilders of Kahshaartown.  I'd wager that at 
least one of the ships in the Trade Convoys now issuing from Port Kaeir 
every year is a three-masted prototype, though a properly functioning 
carrack could not be built until after extensive testing at sea (hence 
its inclusion in the Convoys).

Ibrahim



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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

Ibrahim wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
>>ibrahim wrote:
>>
>>>Rereading the postings about technology levels in Qaiyore, and wikipedia 
>>>articles on naval technology.  According our most recent discussions, 
>>>transport technology in Qaiyore is 15-17.  The more sophisticated 
>>>seafaring societies being at 17, with "COMPASS, LATEEN SAIL (sailing 
>>>into wind), Double-masted Ships, & STERN POST RUDDERS (for steering)". 
>>>
>>>Level 18 includes 3-masted ship (excluding carracks and caravels 
>>>therefore from Qaiyore), so the most advanced sailing ship available 
>>>would be a 2 masted sailing vessels, be they Arab style dhows or 
>>>two-masted galleys with oars.
>>
>>This is one of those places where the Aria development scale is screwy. 
>>Stern-post rudders actually postdate 3-masted vessels by a good deal, and 
>>the galleon used a steering oar not a rudder.  The rudder mention can 
>>probably be replaced with frame construction replacing shell construction, 
>>though I don't recall exactly when this development took place.
>>
>>I was also under the impression that carracks and caravels _were_ 
>>two-masted ships.  Certainly the portuguese exploration vessels were 
>>two-masted vessels, whatever they were called.
> 
> I guess the line is blurred here.  The sources i looked at talked about 
> 3 masted carracks and caravels, and were the prelude to heavier galleons 
> etc.

Since it looks like Qaiyore is right on this dividing line I'll check my 
references and get back to the group on this.

>>>Asking this as I'm currently trying to work out manpower requirements 
>>>for the Kaeirean fleet, and there is a significant difference between 
>>>oared galleys with two masts, and multiple masted sailing ships without 
>>>oars.
>>>
>>>And in hindsight, sails probably won't completely overtake oar-power
>>>until the advent of gunpowder.  Thus I suspect that most Midsea fleets
>>>are dominated by predominantly oar-powered ships.
>>
>>The Midsea is an inland sea, and the ships which travel it can be built 
>>much more lightly and cheaply than those intended to travel the outer 
>>oceans.  I also don't see any strong seafaring nations to promote the 
>>building of heavier ships generally suitable for the outer oceans.  Without 
>>the requirement for the heavier (and more expensive) construction 
>>three-masted vessels and stern-post rudders will be a long time coming. 
>>However, this doesn't preclude the existence of the sophisticated keels and 
>>rigging we associate with three-masted vessels.
> 
> So we're probably talking about two-masted ships being the standard for 
> the more complicated ships in the Midsea?

I would say so.

>>(Oops, I just remembered the Ka'Shari, who _do_ build ships for the outer 
>>oceans.  So heavier vessel types would be quite possible', though expense 
>>probably keeps many from being built.)
> 
> You're right.  They're probably the ocean going equivalent of science 
> fiction's generation ships" - huge, sturdy and designed to last (not to 
> mention house whole clans).  I have the image of one of those Victorian 
> hulks in mind when thinking about the Ka'Shari ships... I can't imagine 
> the outer oceans to be very calm places.
> 
>>Regardless of the availability of galleys, most trade will be carried by 
>>sailed vessels.  Galleys are warships and hardly ever bothered with more 
>>than one mast.  However, galleys are not the only form of warship, and are 
>>only practical with a sufficient supply of slaves.  While "ram and board" 
>>galleys are more effective, the Romans proved against the Carthaginians 
>>that boarding from sailed vessels can also win naval battles.
> 
> Galleys were used by Venice in the 13th-15th century, and by other 
> nations in the same period.  I understood it to be they were only dealt 
> the final deathblow by Portuguese sails developments as a result of 
> Portugal's travels between the Atlantic and the Indian Oceans.  In the 
> Venetian case, much of the state fleet, as well as the much larger 
> number of private vessels, were small, light galleys (1 row of oars with 
> 3 rowers) with 2 masts.  The oarsmen were combinations of criminals, 
> slaves and paid rowers (i think the employed rowers were more for the 
> state fleet during times of war).

First let me say that I'm not up on Venice, but they were unusual in a 
number of ways.  (These way might be analogous to Kaeir's situation.  I 
can't say.)

Galleys can be useful in trading situations where what you are paying for 
is speed of transport instead of the goods transported.  Galleys can also 
be useful in situations where winds are regularly variable or contrary.  So 
a few trading galleys wouldn't be unusual, but they also wouldn't be a big 
proportion of the non-military fleet.

Most seafaring nations (prior to the 19th century) kept a large number of 
ships in dry-dock when not at war.  I seem to recall that Venice kept about 
90% of its wartime fleet in dry-dock.

In our world it was actually gunpowder more than sail that killed the 
galley.  Without gunpowder or outer ocean trade routes the war galley would 
have survived much later.

> The Venetian example is the main reason why I talked about oared galleys 
> over sail-only ships.

But keep in mind that the Med. had the ongoing Christian-Muslim conflict to 
supply large numbers of slaves.

> A fleet of forty light galleys (using the Venetian example above, which 
> had 120 oars) would require some 28000 rowers to power them.

I get 14,400 (minimum).

> Such a 
> number, even if tempered by convicted criminals and the vague possiblity 
> of salaried rowers, still would necessitate a huge number of slaves.  
> And a thriving Midsea-wide (probably Qaiyore-wide, slaves usually coming 
> from the periphery not the core) slave industry, with important 
> political, social and economic (not to mention moral/religious) 
> implications.

Yes, and its been established that the slave trade is marginal on Qaiyore.

>>So, as I hope you can see, the distinction of sail vs. oar isn't quite as 
>>clear cut as most people think.
> 
> I must confess that military and technological history isn't really my 
> forte in any way, shape or form.  A dominance of sails would certainly 
> make manpower less of an issue though .
> 
>>The presence of magic aboard a ship also changes things, giving an 
>>effective ranged attack.  Even if the vessel without a mage is more 
>>maneuverable and can close, it will be taking damage before it manages to 
>>do any.  I imagine the domination of Parglug in the southern MidSea is 
>>based on the regular presence of priests of Marmdal aboard their sea craft.
> 
> Weather-magic and battle-magic would be of strategic importance, 
> therefore, to seafaring nations.  I can imagine such nations investing 
> in the education of sorcerers with such abilities, just as nations in 
> Earth invested in navigation schools and maritime schools.

Few nations in this time period are that forward looking.  Excepting 
Sedonia and Mir most nations probably use some sort of apprenticeship 
system to get mages for the warcraft.  (And then complain about too few 
mages, mages cost too much, etc.  :) )




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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

Jefferson wrote:
> Ibrahim wrote:
> 

> 
> But keep in mind that the Med. had the ongoing Christian-Muslim conflict to 
> supply large numbers of slaves.
> 
> 
>>A fleet of forty light galleys (using the Venetian example above, which 
>>had 120 oars) would require some 28000 rowers to power them.
> 
> 
> I get 14,400 (minimum).
> 
>

The whole question of oarsmen on galleys is a complicated one. It starts 
out simple enough: a bireme has two banks of oars, one man to an oar, 
while a trireme has three banks of oars, one man to an oar. After that, 
it gets messy.

Quadriremes were built in three different configurations: one bank of 
oars, four men to an oar; two banks of oars, two men to an oar; and 
three banks of oars, two men on the top oar, and one man each to the 
lower oars. Quinquiremes were usually built in a 2-2-1 configuration, 
with two men each on the top two oars, and one man on the bottom oar. 
The quinquereme was a favorite of the Romans, due to its ability to 
carry a large number of marines (about 120 per ship).

The Deceres or "Ten" was the largest practical warship of the ancient 
period, and was usually built in a 4-3-3 configuration, 4 men on the top 
oar, three men each on the two bottom oars. Larger warships were built; 
one of the Ptolemies built a "Forty" (most likely a catamaran design 
created by joining two "Twenties") which required a crew of about 7,250 
to operate.

Deceres & larger ships were generally used for laying siege to ports 
rather than fleet engagements; they mounted large catapults.

Adding to the fun, there are not necessarily an equal number of oars in 
each bank on any of these galleys besides the bireme.

Andrew
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[Cel] ship technology in the midsea

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>Jefferson wrote:
>  
>
>>But keep in mind that the Med. had the ongoing Christian-Muslim conflict to 
>>supply large numbers of slaves.
>>    
>>
>>>A fleet of forty light galleys (using the Venetian example above, which 
>>>had 120 oars) would require some 28000 rowers to power them.
>>>      
>>>
>>I get 14,400 (minimum).
>>    
>>
>
>The whole question of oarsmen on galleys is a complicated one. It starts 
>out simple enough: a bireme has two banks of oars, one man to an oar, 
>while a trireme has three banks of oars, one man to an oar. After that, 
>it gets messy.
>
>Quadriremes were built in three different configurations: one bank of 
>oars, four men to an oar; two banks of oars, two men to an oar; and 
>three banks of oars, two men on the top oar, and one man each to the 
>lower oars. Quinquiremes were usually built in a 2-2-1 configuration, 
>with two men each on the top two oars, and one man on the bottom oar. 
>The quinquereme was a favorite of the Romans, due to its ability to 
>carry a large number of marines (about 120 per ship).
>
>The Deceres or "Ten" was the largest practical warship of the ancient 
>period, and was usually built in a 4-3-3 configuration, 4 men on the top 
>oar, three men each on the two bottom oars. Larger warships were built; 
>one of the Ptolemies built a "Forty" (most likely a catamaran design 
>created by joining two "Twenties") which required a crew of about 7,250 
>to operate.
>
>Deceres & larger ships were generally used for laying siege to ports 
>rather than fleet engagements; they mounted large catapults.
>
>Adding to the fun, there are not necessarily an equal number of oars in 
>each bank on any of these galleys besides the bireme.
>
>Andrew
>

28000 came from the Venetian galley (perhaps not the most common example 
i could have used), that had one row of oars and 3 rowers to each oar.  
Estimaets of oar numbers vary from 120-180.  One example 
(http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/a-sasano/english/e-galley.htm) lists 144 
oars. Admittedly, 3 rowers to each oar is for the larger Venetian 
galleys.  Galleys were also used for trade, especially for time 
sensitive and valuable cargo.  Individual traders would probably prefer 
caravels or carracks.

Curiously though, the Venetians did employ oarsmen:

"It was possible to work one's way up through the ranks in the Venetian 
fleet. Michael of Rhodes enlisted as a rower aboard a Venetian war 
galley in 1401. His journeys took him to Bruges, London, Cyprus, Beruit, 
Constantinople, and Alexandria. His 42 years at sea raised him from 
oarsman, "to chief oarsman, steersman, boatswain, adviser, captain of a 
small galley, mate and finally captain of a vessel." (This information 
thanks to MIT's Dibner Institute, which is sponsoring research on the 
180-page manuscript he wrote collecting his knowledge of shipbuilding 
and seamanship.)"

As slavery is not as prevalent as in the Roman Mediterranean, this might 
be the major deterrent in the widespread use of galleys.  I do think 
though that slavery is far more likely in the NE Midsea than anywhere 
else due to the large number of periphery societies in that area or 
societies in state of disorder.  I'm not sure about now, but previously 
Kaeir obtained slaves from Aixelsydan, the Kelshiri plains, the Kiviri 
mountains and elsewhere.

Ibrahim


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