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Celandra is a game in which the players take the roles of societies, rather than playing individual characters. The players will invent a society with its culture and heritage, and will guide its development and interaction with the world. Emphasis will be be placed on developing a detailed history of Celandra, along with myths and legends.
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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Sun

Jul 10
2005

22:43Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

OK, 1456 has been completed, so I'd like to look at what the war did to 
population.  To make things a bit easier, let's consider what populations 
are going to be as of 1458, taking into account both events and normal 
population growth since the last update in 1448.

I feel maximum population growth due to reproduction should around 20%. 
That is, assuming all conditions are perfect, a population could produce 
enough children to offset death due to age and expand by as much as 20% 
between 1448 and 1458.  However, conditions aren't perfect anywhere on Qaiyore.

Major Gains:  Kaeir and Junder

Based on the past ten years Kaeir has now held Tirmaeir long enough for it 
to be fully integrated.  Tirmaeir is probably not as densely populated as 
the the islands, but has recovered from the wars.  Kaeir has also picked up 
refugees from Taltheran and Videssia.  An increase in population from 
634,000 to 800,000 doesn't seem unreasonable.

Junder had a bloodless revolution and combined populations of Free City 
colonists and southern barbarians in the new government.  Magic has become 
more common in the area than it was.  They lost some population in the 
Goblin War, but most of it was "surplus" and easily made up.  A population 
increase to 560,000 looks good (not quite doubling the old 310,000).

Major Losses:  Taltheran, Tana, Videssia

Taltheran suffered a major civil war and lost territory to both Kaeir and 
Mir.  Under the circumstances I see its population dropping from 1,200,000 
to 300,000.

Thanks to Exquaestio's effort Tana wasn't hit as badly as it might have 
been, but it was still badly mauled.  In addition to war casualties 
refugees fled in all directions, and they aren't likely to be coming back. 
  The collapse of the government meant losses due to starvation and disease 
as well.  I see Tana's population dropping to 1,000,000 from it's prior 
1,300,000.

Videssia can't get a break.  Two of its three sections were badly hit in 
the demon invasion.  However, those who have survived this century are used 
to wars and capable of hiding out and hitting back, so things aren't as bad 
as they might have been.  Celoa has also been integrating some of its 
western barbarians into the nation, and that population increase should be 
accounted for.  I see the population dropping from 620,000 to 500,000.

Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia

The rich lands of Yora'Tirmar would allow Mir to expand off the 
overpopulated island of Celamyr.  They likely also pick up some refugees 
from Tana.  I can see Mir's population increasing from 2,510,000 to 2,600,000.

Parglug was hit by the demons, but not badly.  I would say no population 
increase or decrease.

Rhudyn absorbed a number of refugees from Tana and may snip off a bit of 
the Territory claimed by Tana while they're at it.  I see an increase from 
210,000 to 250,000.  (Note, however, that we may wish to revise the 1448 
numbers based on the new history.)

Sedonia is building and repairing infrastructure and has recovered from its 
civil war.  They likely absorbed a number of refugees from Taltheran as 
well.  I can see their population increasing to 24,000,000.

Torphan is so little known that keeping the population as it is seems 
reasonable.

Minor Gains:

All other nations will have minor population gains.  Those nations with low 
population densities will grow more than those with high population densities.

Comments?

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/


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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Sun

Jul 10
2005

22:58Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:

> Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia

Another Special Case:  Morvali

The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
begun rebuilding the city of Wyr.  The tripod site lists the Morvali 
population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people.  For 
1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Mon

Jul 11
2005

00:39Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Wyr belongs/belonges to the Therani people who controled everything along the river outside of Taltheran.  The area was united into one country just before the Sinari war and they would be the ones to rebuild Wyr.
 
Jason Heaps

Jefferson  wrote:
Jefferson wrote:

> Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia

Another Special Case: Morvali

The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
begun rebuilding the city of Wyr. The tripod site lists the Morvali 
population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people. For 
1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:00Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jason Heaps wrote:
> Jefferson  wrote:
>> Jefferson wrote:
>> 
>>>Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia
>> 
>> Another Special Case: Morvali
>> 
>> The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
>> begun rebuilding the city of Wyr. The tripod site lists the Morvali 
>> population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people. For 
>> 1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.
>
> Wyr belongs/belonges to the Therani people who controled everything along the river outside of Taltheran.  The area was united into one country just before the Sinari war and they would be the ones to rebuild Wyr.

Oops.  In that case I suggest raising the Therani population to 600,000 
(from the 300,000 on the tripod site).

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Mon

Jul 11
2005

00:53Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:

>Jefferson wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia
>>    
>>
>
>Another Special Case:  Morvali
>
>The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
>begun rebuilding the city of Wyr.  The tripod site lists the Morvali 
>population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people.  For 
>1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.
>
>  
>

This is interesting as it means that all of Taltheran's neighbours now 
outnumber it, and therefore probably have greater muscle in several 
senses (perhaps even in terms of $ capital).

Ibrahim


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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:01Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

ibrahim wrote:

> Jefferson wrote:
> 
> 
>>Jefferson wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>>Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia
>>>   
>>>
>>
>>Another Special Case:  Morvali
>>
>>The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
>>begun rebuilding the city of Wyr.  The tripod site lists the Morvali 
>>population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people.  For 
>>1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.
>>
>> 
>>
> 
> 
> This is interesting as it means that all of Taltheran's neighbours now 
> outnumber it, and therefore probably have greater muscle in several 
> senses (perhaps even in terms of $ capital).

Why am I suddenly reminded of the Partitions of Poland? >:)

Andrew

> Ibrahim
> 
> 
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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:08Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>ibrahim wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Jefferson wrote:
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Jefferson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Another Special Case:  Morvali
>>>
>>>The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
>>>begun rebuilding the city of Wyr.  The tripod site lists the Morvali 
>>>population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people.  For 
>>>1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>This is interesting as it means that all of Taltheran's neighbours now 
>>outnumber it, and therefore probably have greater muscle in several 
>>senses (perhaps even in terms of $ capital).
>>    
>>
>
>Why am I suddenly reminded of the Partitions of Poland? >:)
>
>Andrew
>  
>

Indeed. : )

I suspect something might happen in the Saltrimi March that necessitates 
it being officially annexed, rather than just a de facto annexation.  
Undoubtedly Taltheran's other neighbours are thinking the same (here i 
think of Morvali and Sedonia especially).

Ibrahim




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JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:32Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

oh trust me, Mir would proble be in on the actions faster then the Morvali.  I get to be the Austria-Hungary empire.  :)

ibrahim  wrote:Andrew Janssen wrote:

>ibrahim wrote:
>
> 
>
>>Jefferson wrote:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>>Jefferson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>>Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>Another Special Case: Morvali
>>>
>>>The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
>>>begun rebuilding the city of Wyr. The tripod site lists the Morvali 
>>>population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people. For 
>>>1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>This is interesting as it means that all of Taltheran's neighbours now 
>>outnumber it, and therefore probably have greater muscle in several 
>>senses (perhaps even in terms of $ capital).
>> 
>>
>
>Why am I suddenly reminded of the Partitions of Poland? >:)
>
>Andrew
> 
>

Indeed. : )

I suspect something might happen in the Saltrimi March that necessitates 
it being officially annexed, rather than just a de facto annexation. 
Undoubtedly Taltheran's other neighbours are thinking the same (here i 
think of Morvali and Sedonia especially).

Ibrahim




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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:37Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jason Heaps wrote:

>oh trust me, Mir would proble be in on the actions faster then the Morvali.  I get to be the Austria-Hungary empire.  :)
>  
>

Well, only if I get to be the Serene Republic ; )

Ibrahim

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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:41Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

ibrahim wrote:

> Jason Heaps wrote:
> 
> 
>>oh trust me, Mir would proble be in on the actions faster then the Morvali.  I get to be the Austria-Hungary empire.  :)
>> 
>>
> 
> 
> Well, only if I get to be the Serene Republic ; )
> 
> Ibrahim

I call the Russian Empire. ; )

Andrew

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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:37Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

ibrahim wrote:
> Andrew Janssen wrote:
>>ibrahim wrote:
>>>Jefferson wrote:
>>>>Jefferson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia
>>>>
>>>>Another Special Case:  Morvali
>>>>
>>>>The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
>>>>begun rebuilding the city of Wyr.  The tripod site lists the Morvali 
>>>>population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people.  For 
>>>>1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.
>>>
>>>This is interesting as it means that all of Taltheran's neighbours now 
>>>outnumber it, and therefore probably have greater muscle in several 
>>>senses (perhaps even in terms of $ capital).
>>
>>Why am I suddenly reminded of the Partitions of Poland? >:)
> 
> Indeed. : )
> 
> I suspect something might happen in the Saltrimi March that necessitates 
> it being officially annexed, rather than just a de facto annexation.  
> Undoubtedly Taltheran's other neighbours are thinking the same (here i 
> think of Morvali and Sedonia especially).

I haven't been keeping up with situation in Taltheran, so this may be way 
off, but . . .

It seems to me that the city of Saltrim is the key.  Is Kaeir willing to 
let Sedonia have it?  Is Sedonia willing to let Kaeir have it?  (I _know_ 
Kaeir wouldn't be willing to let Mir have it.)  Can Sedonia, Kaeir, and Mir 
work out some sort of power sharing arrangement?  If Saltrim and Tal can't 
cooperate I don't see any way for Taltheran to survive.

There's also the matter who controls what where.  IIRC there was an 
aristocratic faction, a republic faction, and the mages were a separate 
faction.  If the aristocratic faction is active in Tal and up river it 
wouldn't be difficult for the Therani to take over Tal.  And if someone 
annexes Saltrim, the Therani are almost certain to annex Tal anyway.

On the other hand, if the Morvali perceive the unrest as an opportunity, 
they may move to take Tal themselves.

(I'm beginning to understand why there has been so much interest in this 
area.  I've been working in the south and haven't really looked before. 
The situation is still pretty unstable.)

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html


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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Mon

Jul 11
2005

02:09Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:

>ibrahim wrote:
>  
>
>>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>ibrahim wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Jefferson wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Jefferson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>Another Special Case:  Morvali
>>>>>
>>>>>The Morvali have almost certainly absorbed some of Talishara refugees and 
>>>>>begun rebuilding the city of Wyr.  The tripod site lists the Morvali 
>>>>>population at 150,000, which seems low, even for a nomadic people.  For 
>>>>>1458 I see setting the population to 500,000.
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>This is interesting as it means that all of Taltheran's neighbours now 
>>>>outnumber it, and therefore probably have greater muscle in several 
>>>>senses (perhaps even in terms of $ capital).
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Why am I suddenly reminded of the Partitions of Poland? >:)
>>>      
>>>
>>Indeed. : )
>>
>>I suspect something might happen in the Saltrimi March that necessitates 
>>it being officially annexed, rather than just a de facto annexation.  
>>Undoubtedly Taltheran's other neighbours are thinking the same (here i 
>>think of Morvali and Sedonia especially).
>>    
>>
>
>I haven't been keeping up with situation in Taltheran, so this may be way 
>off, but . . .
>
>It seems to me that the city of Saltrim is the key.  Is Kaeir willing to 
>let Sedonia have it?  Is Sedonia willing to let Kaeir have it?  (I _know_ 
>Kaeir wouldn't be willing to let Mir have it.)  Can Sedonia, Kaeir, and Mir 
>work out some sort of power sharing arrangement?  If Saltrim and Tal can't 
>cooperate I don't see any way for Taltheran to survive.
>  
>
Well, Kaeir already has the Saltrimi hinterland, which Basiluddin 
cleverly took when he withdrew from Saltrim city itself.  The Saltrimi 
Protectorate of the Marchlands covers most of Saltrim, save for a small 
pocket of territory in the north around Saltrim city.  The possession is 
in everything but name mind you (Kaeir has an unnamed senior official 
called the Marchmagister, though it appointed Basiluddin as the Trade 
Commissioner to Saltrim).

Saltrim had also become a centre of Taltherani republicanism, though 
after the end of the civil war, i'm not sure as to whether that has 
changed.  A certain section of the population may be supportive of 
Kaeir, especially as Basiluddin at one point was influential in many 
circles there.

Kaeir will not let the March go, as it wants a march to protect its 
difficult northern frontier.

It is probably content to leave the city alone (not wanting to get 
involved in Saltrimi, and eventually, Taltherani politics)..  Given that 
it is a port though, I don't think Kaeir would be interested in Sedonia 
or Mir controlling it, though it would be open to Saltrim being under 
joint Kaeir-Mir-Sedonia "protection" of sorts (a kind of international 
city, much like post-WWI Danzig, perhaps).  If it came to a pinch 
though, Kaeir would take the city just to prevent Sedonia or Mir from 
gaining control of a northern port.

Saltrim, without the majority of its tax base in the south, is already 
in dire straits though.

Ibrahim


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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:46Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Andrew Janssen wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
> 
>>OK, 1456 has been completed, so I'd like to look at what the war did to 
>>population.  To make things a bit easier, let's consider what populations 
>>are going to be as of 1458, taking into account both events and normal 
>>population growth since the last update in 1448.
>> 
>>Major Losses:  Taltheran, Tana, Videssia
>>
>>Taltheran suffered a major civil war and lost territory to both Kaeir and 
>>Mir.  Under the circumstances I see its population dropping from 1,200,000 
>>to 300,000.
> 
> I think that's an excessive decline. The territory loss, after all, was 
> already in the past in 1448 when the population was 1.2 million. Also, 
> between 1448 and the present, the civil war in Taltheran ended and 
> recovery started. 800,000 to 900,000 seems more reasonable.

Well, Taltheran is listed with a population density of 41 per square mile. 
  Considering the other population densities in game that seems a bit much 
and I think we might not have accounted for the effect of the civil war. 
How about 750,000?

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:50Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:

> Andrew Janssen wrote:
> 
>>Jefferson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>OK, 1456 has been completed, so I'd like to look at what the war did to 
>>>population.  To make things a bit easier, let's consider what populations 
>>>are going to be as of 1458, taking into account both events and normal 
>>>population growth since the last update in 1448.
>>>
>>>Major Losses:  Taltheran, Tana, Videssia
>>>
>>>Taltheran suffered a major civil war and lost territory to both Kaeir and 
>>>Mir.  Under the circumstances I see its population dropping from 1,200,000 
>>>to 300,000.
>>
>>I think that's an excessive decline. The territory loss, after all, was 
>>already in the past in 1448 when the population was 1.2 million. Also, 
>>between 1448 and the present, the civil war in Taltheran ended and 
>>recovery started. 800,000 to 900,000 seems more reasonable.
> 
> 
> Well, Taltheran is listed with a population density of 41 per square mile. 
>   Considering the other population densities in game that seems a bit much 
> and I think we might not have accounted for the effect of the civil war. 
> How about 750,000?

That seems reasonable.

Andrew

> Jefferson
> http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html
> 
> 
> 
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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:36Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:

>OK, 1456 has been completed, so I'd like to look at what the war did to 
>population.  To make things a bit easier, let's consider what populations 
>are going to be as of 1458, taking into account both events and normal 
>population growth since the last update in 1448.
>
>I feel maximum population growth due to reproduction should around 20%. 
>That is, assuming all conditions are perfect, a population could produce 
>enough children to offset death due to age and expand by as much as 20% 
>between 1448 and 1458.  However, conditions aren't perfect anywhere on Qaiyore.
>
>Major Gains:  Kaeir and Junder
>
>Based on the past ten years Kaeir has now held Tirmaeir long enough for it 
>to be fully integrated.  Tirmaeir is probably not as densely populated as 
>the the islands, but has recovered from the wars.  Kaeir has also picked up 
>refugees from Taltheran and Videssia.  An increase in population from 
>634,000 to 800,000 doesn't seem unreasonable.
>
>Junder had a bloodless revolution and combined populations of Free City 
>colonists and southern barbarians in the new government.  Magic has become 
>more common in the area than it was.  They lost some population in the 
>Goblin War, but most of it was "surplus" and easily made up.  A population 
>increase to 560,000 looks good (not quite doubling the old 310,000).
>
>Major Losses:  Taltheran, Tana, Videssia
>
>Taltheran suffered a major civil war and lost territory to both Kaeir and 
>Mir.  Under the circumstances I see its population dropping from 1,200,000 
>to 300,000.
>
>Thanks to Exquaestio's effort Tana wasn't hit as badly as it might have 
>been, but it was still badly mauled.  In addition to war casualties 
>refugees fled in all directions, and they aren't likely to be coming back. 
>  The collapse of the government meant losses due to starvation and disease 
>as well.  I see Tana's population dropping to 1,000,000 from it's prior 
>1,300,000.
>
>Videssia can't get a break.  Two of its three sections were badly hit in 
>the demon invasion.  However, those who have survived this century are used 
>to wars and capable of hiding out and hitting back, so things aren't as bad 
>as they might have been.  Celoa has also been integrating some of its 
>western barbarians into the nation, and that population increase should be 
>accounted for.  I see the population dropping from 620,000 to 500,000.
>
>Special Cases: Mir, Parglug, Rhudyn, Sedonia
>
>The rich lands of Yora'Tirmar would allow Mir to expand off the 
>overpopulated island of Celamyr.  They likely also pick up some refugees 
>from Tana.  I can see Mir's population increasing from 2,510,000 to 2,600,000.
>
>Parglug was hit by the demons, but not badly.  I would say no population 
>increase or decrease.
>
>Rhudyn absorbed a number of refugees from Tana and may snip off a bit of 
>the Territory claimed by Tana while they're at it.  I see an increase from 
>210,000 to 250,000.  (Note, however, that we may wish to revise the 1448 
>numbers based on the new history.)
>
>Sedonia is building and repairing infrastructure and has recovered from its 
>civil war.  They likely absorbed a number of refugees from Taltheran as 
>well.  I can see their population increasing to 24,000,000.
>
>Torphan is so little known that keeping the population as it is seems 
>reasonable.
>
>Minor Gains:
>
>All other nations will have minor population gains.  Those nations with low 
>population densities will grow more than those with high population densities.
>
>Comments?
>  
>

Commonwealth of the Shanariyya & the Kelshiri tribes:

Back in the 1430s, the Shanari began colonising the upper reaches of the 
Kelshiri river, establishing the settlement of Kelshirserai.  I imagine 
by this time that presence is far stronger, and Shanari influence has 
spread down most of the river.  The initial signs of Shanari-Kelshiri 
contact was that the Kelshiri chieftains were able to be integrated into 
the theocratic-tribal hierarchy of the Commonwealth of the Shanariyya 
given their similiar social organisation.  The Shanari would obviously 
be the stronger, as they are more sophisticated culturally, spiritually 
and technologically.

I imagine that the tribes of the Upper Kelshir have been mostly, if not 
completely, integrated into the Shanariyya Commonwealth, and influence 
extended down to the Lower Kelshir.  There would be a number of minor 
Shanari trade settlements along the Lower Kelshir, possibly even one at 
the mouth of the Kelshir.

Similiar trade settlements would have been established on the Kelshiri 
Plains, and in its river system, though the Shanari have been less 
successful in either their political or cultural influence.

Bel'Adne:

With the spread of the Millat into Bel'Adne, the division between the 
Bel'Adnese and the Shanari on their frontier has dissolved to a greater 
degree, leading to greater interaction in terms of commerce and 
culture.  The culturally more sophisticated Bel'Adnese will have started 
influencing Shanari culture.

Milakanur:

I imagine something has happened in Milakanur, especially given the 
increased activity by its neighbours (the Shanari, the Panchayyah, and 
the Kaeireans), as well as the now very significant traffic that goes 
through its quasi-protectorate of Port Jabau.  The increased commerce 
along is bound to have an indirect impact on Milakanur.

Ibrahim








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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Tue

Jul 12
2005

02:21Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

OK.  I've uploaded the population numbers for 1458 to the website.  See:

http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/PopulationIn1458

These numbers are not final, just what I have right now.

Some comments:

If any changes are made, let me know so I that when I make the final update 
the numbers aren't lost.

If anyone wants to make specific divisions in a region or combine 
divisions, feel free, but Andrew I'd prefer if Vizinia and the rest of 
Sedonia weren't combined at this point.

Has the population of Port Kaeir decreased?  Yes, Port Kaeir relies heavily 
on trade, but a lot of that population could be useful on the mainland. 
Also note that I've made a separate entry for Rimrivertown.

I've added a number of entries from the 1448 update, and someone to count 
out pixels would be very useful.

Each of the known free cities now has a defined population, and the N and S 
indicate northern or southern Orasaren.

All comments are welcome.

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/



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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Tue

Jul 12
2005

03:29Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:
> OK.  I've uploaded the population numbers for 1458 to the website.  See:
> 
> http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/PopulationIn1458
> 
> These numbers are not final, just what I have right now.
> 
> Some comments:
> 
> If any changes are made, let me know so I that when I make the final update 
> the numbers aren't lost.
> 
> If anyone wants to make specific divisions in a region or combine 
> divisions, feel free, but Andrew I'd prefer if Vizinia and the rest of 
> Sedonia weren't combined at this point.

Well, for my purposes, I always treat them as combined, but if you need 
them seperate to better track Exquaestio growth, I can live with it. But 
I'd rather that they be combined.

> Has the population of Port Kaeir decreased?  Yes, Port Kaeir relies heavily 
> on trade, but a lot of that population could be useful on the mainland. 
> Also note that I've made a separate entry for Rimrivertown.
> 
> I've added a number of entries from the 1448 update, and someone to count 
> out pixels would be very useful.

Maybe I can do this in my copious free time(heh).

Andrew

> Each of the known free cities now has a defined population, and the N and S 
> indicate northern or southern Orasaren.
> 
> All comments are welcome.
> 

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JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Tue

Jul 12
2005

07:23Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Andrew Janssen wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
> 
>>OK.  I've uploaded the population numbers for 1458 to the website.  See:
>>
>>http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/PopulationIn1458

>>If anyone wants to make specific divisions in a region or combine 
>>divisions, feel free, but Andrew I'd prefer if Vizinia and the rest of 
>>Sedonia weren't combined at this point.
> 
> Well, for my purposes, I always treat them as combined, but if you need 
> them seperate to better track Exquaestio growth, I can live with it. But 
> I'd rather that they be combined.

Well, I really do need to keep the numbers separate for Vizinia and the 
rest of Sedonia until 1465 or so.  Come to think of it though, there's no 
reason I can't keep them separate in my records and combine them on the 
summary sheet.  I'll combine them when I next correct the page.

> One other point, where did you get the population numbers for the cities 
> from?

That's a discussion I'd prefer to avoid until there's agreement on the 
populations (though there's no need to wait until Taltheran is divvied up). 
  For right now they're even more tentative than everything else.  I mainly 
wanted some examples in the table so I could see what the layout would look 
like.

I launched the population discussion a bit early (I was planning on waiting 
until 1447 had actually begun) because I was playing around with city sizes 
in response to the "The Greatness of Qaiyore" thread.  Then I realized that 
it would be better to get the population updates squared away first . . .

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Tue

Jul 12
2005

03:30Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:

> OK.  I've uploaded the population numbers for 1458 to the website.  See:
> 
> http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/PopulationIn1458
> 
> These numbers are not final, just what I have right now.
> 

One other point, where did you get the population numbers for the cities 
from?

Andrew

> 

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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Tue

Jul 12
2005

03:37Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:

> 
> Has the population of Port Kaeir decreased?  Yes, Port Kaeir relies heavily 
> on trade, but a lot of that population could be useful on the mainland. 
> Also note that I've made a separate entry for Rimrivertown.
> 

Actually, using the formula from the Medieval Demographics site, Port 
Kaeir should have a population of about 10,700. Of course, Kaeir is a 
special case, but 60,000 is an extraordinarily high density city.

I ran a population spreadsheet for the cities of Qaiyore awhile ago. 
Thalsedon was 67,800, and Mirabalpur was 59,939. Of course, those were 
numbers based on 1448 populations, and, looking back, I assumed the 
lowest level of agricultural technology . . . hm. I think I should 
re-figure the populations based on a higher agricultural technology 
level. Yet another thing on my to-do list.

Andrew
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JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Tue

Jul 12
2005

04:10Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Also I have always viewed Mirabalpur as a city of a million people.  It was desinded that way.  That is one of the reasons the city is so large.  I have also always played Mirabalpur as a city of a million.  I have always viewed it like rome.
 
Jason Heaps

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
Jefferson wrote:

> 
> Has the population of Port Kaeir decreased? Yes, Port Kaeir relies heavily 
> on trade, but a lot of that population could be useful on the mainland. 
> Also note that I've made a separate entry for Rimrivertown.
> 

Actually, using the formula from the Medieval Demographics site, Port 
Kaeir should have a population of about 10,700. Of course, Kaeir is a 
special case, but 60,000 is an extraordinarily high density city.

I ran a population spreadsheet for the cities of Qaiyore awhile ago. 
Thalsedon was 67,800, and Mirabalpur was 59,939. Of course, those were 
numbers based on 1448 populations, and, looking back, I assumed the 
lowest level of agricultural technology . . . hm. I think I should 
re-figure the populations based on a higher agricultural technology 
level. Yet another thing on my to-do list.

Andrew
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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Tue

Jul 12
2005

04:44Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jason Heaps wrote:
> Also I have always viewed Mirabalpur as a city of a million people.  It was desinded that way.  That is one of the reasons the city is so large.  I have also always played Mirabalpur as a city of a million.  I have always viewed it like rome.
>  
> Jason Heaps

Well, cities of a million sound cool, but not even Rome reached a 
million in ancient times, although they did claim that number.

More to the point, a population of 1 million for Mirabalpur means that 
half the population of Celamyr lives in one city! Now, I know you said 
that there were a couple other cites on the island--if there are over a 
million people in cities on Mir, I don't think there are enough farmers 
to support that kind of urban population. I have a spreadsheet I could 
use to get a handle on the numbers, but it's too late at night to fool 
around with it.

Looking at your map of Mirabalpur, it looks like each block is about a 
square mile, so not counting the harbour area, the city has a footprint 
of about 178 square miles, which is *huge*. But, even so, a population 
of 1 million would result in a population density, for the city, of 
5,617 people per square mile. Even allowing for magic, that's an 
insanely high density at this level of technology.

Andrew

> Andrew Janssen  wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
> 
> 
>>Has the population of Port Kaeir decreased? Yes, Port Kaeir relies heavily 
>>on trade, but a lot of that population could be useful on the mainland. 
>>Also note that I've made a separate entry for Rimrivertown.
>>
> 
> 
> Actually, using the formula from the Medieval Demographics site, Port 
> Kaeir should have a population of about 10,700. Of course, Kaeir is a 
> special case, but 60,000 is an extraordinarily high density city.
> 
> I ran a population spreadsheet for the cities of Qaiyore awhile ago. 
> Thalsedon was 67,800, and Mirabalpur was 59,939. Of course, those were 
> numbers based on 1448 populations, and, looking back, I assumed the 
> lowest level of agricultural technology . . . hm. I think I should 
> re-figure the populations based on a higher agricultural technology 
> level. Yet another thing on my to-do list.
> 
> Andrew
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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Tue

Jul 12
2005

05:00Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jason Heaps wrote:

>Also I have always viewed Mirabalpur as a city of a million people.  It was desinded that way.  That is one of the reasons the city is so large.  I have also always played Mirabalpur as a city of a million.  I have always viewed it like rome.
> 
>Jason Heaps
>  
>

I think of the empty, decrepit sections of Rome when you mention this, 
and the rise and fall of the Roman population as well.  Probably at the 
peak of the Mirrish Empire, or its other high points?  Not to knock your 
view of Mirabalpur, but there are probably a number of empty 
neighbourhoods (and probably cheap housing as well).

Ibrahim

>  
>

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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Mon

Jul 11
2005

00:49Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Jefferson wrote:

> OK, 1456 has been completed, so I'd like to look at what the war did to 
> population.  To make things a bit easier, let's consider what populations 
> are going to be as of 1458, taking into account both events and normal 
> population growth since the last update in 1448.
> 



> Major Losses:  Taltheran, Tana, Videssia
> 
> Taltheran suffered a major civil war and lost territory to both Kaeir and 
> Mir.  Under the circumstances I see its population dropping from 1,200,000 
> to 300,000.

I think that's an excessive decline. The territory loss, after all, was 
already in the past in 1448 when the population was 1.2 million. Also, 
between 1448 and the present, the civil war in Taltheran ended and 
recovery started. 800,000 to 900,000 seems more reasonable.

Aside from that, I think the numbers are quite reasonable.

Andrew

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IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Mon

Jul 11
2005

01:02Z

[Cel] Post-War: Population

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>Jefferson wrote:
>
>  
>
>>OK, 1456 has been completed, so I'd like to look at what the war did to 
>>population.  To make things a bit easier, let's consider what populations 
>>are going to be as of 1458, taking into account both events and normal 
>>population growth since the last update in 1448.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>Major Losses:  Taltheran, Tana, Videssia
>>
>>Taltheran suffered a major civil war and lost territory to both Kaeir and 
>>Mir.  Under the circumstances I see its population dropping from 1,200,000 
>>to 300,000.
>>    
>>
>
>I think that's an excessive decline. The territory loss, after all, was 
>already in the past in 1448 when the population was 1.2 million. Also, 
>between 1448 and the present, the civil war in Taltheran ended and 
>recovery started. 800,000 to 900,000 seems more reasonable.
>
>Aside from that, I think the numbers are quite reasonable.
>  
>
Regardless of whether it is 300,000 or 800-900,000 it is probably fairly 
safe to say that Taltheran cannot be considered a "regional power" 
anymore, given that a population decline of that degree would have seen 
the near collapse of many industries and much of the economy.

Wages though would have gone up in Taltheran, given that demand would be 
higher than supply for labour.

Ibrahim


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