[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

If Taltheran were to be chopped up today, Kaeir would get the biggest 
chunk, followed by Mir. Sedonia doesn't have a legion nearby, only 
cavalry, and II Legion won't be in position until late 1457-early 1458 
to intervene in Taltheran. That said, Sedonia has an old score to settle 
with the city of Pran.

How does a summit meeting some time in the next turn or two to discuss 
the Taltherani Question sound?

Andrew
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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

I think that summit meeting would deffently be in order.  :)
 
Jason Heaps

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
If Taltheran were to be chopped up today, Kaeir would get the biggest 
chunk, followed by Mir. Sedonia doesn't have a legion nearby, only 
cavalry, and II Legion won't be in position until late 1457-early 1458 
to intervene in Taltheran. That said, Sedonia has an old score to settle 
with the city of Pran.

How does a summit meeting some time in the next turn or two to discuss 
the Taltherani Question sound?

Andrew
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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

To (the President of the United Provinces of Sedonia / the Archmage of 
Mir/substitute any relevant ruler's name)

Greetings and salutations from the Green Republic and the blessings of 
the Lady of the Isles.

The Green Republic of Kaeir wishes to extend an invitation to your 
esteemed self, or your honourable representative, to meet in the spring 
of 1457 in the Kaeirean dominion capital of New Tirmaeir to discuss the 
question of Taltheran in a conference of concerned nations, so as to 
ensure peace, stability and harmonious commerce in the Midsea.

A similiar invitation has also been sent to other interested powers, so 
as to ensure a broad basis for settling this vexing question, and 
ensuring the continuation of law, order and justice.

I look forward to your reply,

Lord Boris van Adin
Consul of the Green Republic of Kaeir

Jason Heaps wrote:

>I think that summit meeting would deffently be in order.  :)
> 
>Jason Heaps
>
>Andrew Janssen  wrote:
>If Taltheran were to be chopped up today, Kaeir would get the biggest 
>chunk, followed by Mir. Sedonia doesn't have a legion nearby, only 
>cavalry, and II Legion won't be in position until late 1457-early 1458 
>to intervene in Taltheran. That said, Sedonia has an old score to settle 
>with the city of Pran.
>
>How does a summit meeting some time in the next turn or two to discuss 
>the Taltherani Question sound?
>
>Andrew
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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

To Lord Boris van Adin, Consul of the Green Republic of Kaeir, greetings.

I thank you for your gracious invitation, and I will send the Foreign 
Minister, the Honorable Roger Finn as Sedonia's Ambassador Extraordinary 
and Plenipotentiary to the conference in New Tirmaeir. It is to be 
devoutly hoped that a satisfactory solution to the Taltheran question 
can be arrived at.

Any such resolution would, of course, require the stern chastisment of 
the pernicious and trade-interfering merchant guilds, particularly those 
of Pran, and would also require resolving the status of the former 
Taltherani possessions along the Wyr and Tal River valleys.

I look forward to hearing the details of the conference from you soonest.

Count Harald of Rochlyn, First Councilor and Minister of War to Her 
Majesty Yzara IV, Empress of the United Provinces of Sedonia.


ibrahim wrote:

> To (the President of the United Provinces of Sedonia / the Archmage of 
> Mir/substitute any relevant ruler's name)
> 
> Greetings and salutations from the Green Republic and the blessings of 
> the Lady of the Isles.
> 
> The Green Republic of Kaeir wishes to extend an invitation to your 
> esteemed self, or your honourable representative, to meet in the spring 
> of 1457 in the Kaeirean dominion capital of New Tirmaeir to discuss the 
> question of Taltheran in a conference of concerned nations, so as to 
> ensure peace, stability and harmonious commerce in the Midsea.
> 
> A similiar invitation has also been sent to other interested powers, so 
> as to ensure a broad basis for settling this vexing question, and 
> ensuring the continuation of law, order and justice.
> 
> I look forward to your reply,
> 
> Lord Boris van Adin
> Consul of the Green Republic of Kaeir
> 


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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

I'm going to work with the map to sketch out the Partition Plan 
Proposals that Sedonia will be bringing to the table. Once they're 
ready, I'll put them up on Phoenyx.

Andrew
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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

I've put up Sedonia's partition proposals at
http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/Files

As you can see, in Proposal 1, Saltrim becomes a Free City under 
international administration, and Sedonia cedes a small corridor of land 
to Mir, while grabbing a big chunk of land to the south bank of the Tal, 
from the Olozog Hills to Pran.

In Proposal 2, Saltrim stays Kaeiran & Sedonia takes a smaller bite in 
the North . . . but in exchange for ceding its northern claims, Sedonia 
wants a free hand in re-annexing Zelkor.

There are of course many possible variations on these proposals, but 
this will to for starting.

Andrew
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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

Andrew Janssen wrote:

> As you can see, in Proposal 1, Saltrim becomes a Free City under 
> international administration, and Sedonia cedes a small corridor of land 
> to Mir, while grabbing a big chunk of land to the south bank of the Tal, 
> from the Olozog Hills to Pran.

The Therani perspective is that this is completely unacceptable.  They 
would be willing to cede any claims to Kajir if Sedonia 1) formally agrees 
to recognize the Therani government, and 2) agrees to provide help in 
fighting the Olozog, but the rest of Tal river basin down to Unnirand is 
theirs.

The town of Corryn is the Morvali's one settled area and only port on the 
MidSea.  They don't see what they gain by giving it up.

> In Proposal 2, Saltrim stays Kaeiran & Sedonia takes a smaller bite in 
> the North . . . but in exchange for ceding its northern claims, Sedonia 
> wants a free hand in re-annexing Zelkor.

The Therani can't comment on Zelkor, but might be willing recognize 
Sedonia's claim to Pran and Mir's claim Tal, giving up their own claim to 
those areas.  In return they would like Sedonian aid in reclaiming the 
Western Wyr river from the Olozog, and Mirrish funding and teachers for a 
school of magic in Hadrair.  (Sedonia and Mir must also formally recognize 
their nation, of course.)

The Morvali would like to claim Tal themselves, but would agree not to make 
trouble for Mir if the Therani agree to help build and defend a new trade 
town in the northern Olozog on the border with Hisaria.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/


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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

While I agree that neither Morvali and Thernai would not agree.  Honestly the three of us could perform the second with out any support from them.  Thernai are to busy trying to stablized their own country and rebuilding.  They would not want to add Taltheran since they would have to both conqure, keep and stablize the area.  They don't have the resource for that.  The Morvali were also not very stable and they would deffently not have the power to oppose.  Honestly they would not have the power to annex or conqure the area.
 
As for the first one.  If Sedonia, Mir and Kaeir pushed the issue even with out the support of Morvali and Thernai we could force the issue.
 
Jason Heaps

Jefferson  wrote:
Andrew Janssen wrote:

> As you can see, in Proposal 1, Saltrim becomes a Free City under 
> international administration, and Sedonia cedes a small corridor of land 
> to Mir, while grabbing a big chunk of land to the south bank of the Tal, 
> from the Olozog Hills to Pran.

The Therani perspective is that this is completely unacceptable. They 
would be willing to cede any claims to Kajir if Sedonia 1) formally agrees 
to recognize the Therani government, and 2) agrees to provide help in 
fighting the Olozog, but the rest of Tal river basin down to Unnirand is 
theirs.

The town of Corryn is the Morvali's one settled area and only port on the 
MidSea. They don't see what they gain by giving it up.

> In Proposal 2, Saltrim stays Kaeiran & Sedonia takes a smaller bite in 
> the North . . . but in exchange for ceding its northern claims, Sedonia 
> wants a free hand in re-annexing Zelkor.

The Therani can't comment on Zelkor, but might be willing recognize 
Sedonia's claim to Pran and Mir's claim Tal, giving up their own claim to 
those areas. In return they would like Sedonian aid in reclaiming the 
Western Wyr river from the Olozog, and Mirrish funding and teachers for a 
school of magic in Hadrair. (Sedonia and Mir must also formally recognize 
their nation, of course.)

The Morvali would like to claim Tal themselves, but would agree not to make 
trouble for Mir if the Therani agree to help build and defend a new trade 
town in the northern Olozog on the border with Hisaria.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/


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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

Jason Heaps wrote:

> Thernai are to busy trying to stablized their own country and
> rebuilding.

If Sedonia can go through a civil war and restabilize in the post Sinari 
war period the Therani can do the same.

> They would not want to add Taltheran since they would have
> to both conqure, keep and stablize the area. They don't have the
> resource for that.

The Therani have a Philosophical Orientation of War.  The idea of 
conquering Taltheran is not going to disturb them.

> The Morvali were also not very stable and they would
> deffently not have the power to oppose.

I don't see why you say the Morvali aren't stable.  They have internal 
issues, of course.  What society doesn't?

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/


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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

"My fellow ambassadors -- in my hand I hold a tool used by the common
people of Wyrtal. It is knife made of pieces of chipped flint glued to
a wooden back. Some of you may say this only shows that Wyrtal is still
essentially primitive and tribal. But it is tools like these that made
the mechanical wooden toys my embassy brought as trade goods and I have
seen some of you marvel over. So why, you may ask, are we of Wyrtal
still using such a primitive instrument? You know that ours is a flat
country. We have no sources of iron, of copper, indeed, of any metals at
all. For decades, if not centuries, the merchant families of Talishara
have squeezed every ounce of profit they could from cargos taken above
Pran. Possessing no iron of our own, we were forced to buy iron at a
price which restricted it to only the most essential uses.

"Then civil war came to Talishara, and the trade route through Corryn
was opened. We of Wyrtal were able to purchase iron from Milakanur,
Sedonia, and the nations of the far south instead of being dependent on
the merchants of Taltheran. Today the price of iron in Hadrair is
_one-five-hundredth_ what it was before Talishara's civil war, and that
price is still falling.

"In considering Corryn, I would ask that you remember this knife.
Remember this knife and the people who, more than any other, fought and
died in the Sinari War -- with no better tools. I ask you -- no I _beg_
you, do not create a situation where the possibility exists, however
remote, that one nation might control the price of the iron that reaches
Wyrtal or the price of the fine linens which Wyrtal produces."

(Shortly after this speech the ambassador approaches the representatives
from Kaeir and Mir. He points out that should Mir control both Tal and
Corryn, in order to protect its trade, Myrtal, with all its rich and
large untenanted river land, would be forced to seek protectorate status
from Sedonia. Considering Sedonian intelligence capabilities, the
Sedonians will almost certainly learn of this not long after.)

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

Jefferson wrote:

> Andrew Janssen wrote:
> 
> 
>>As you can see, in Proposal 1, Saltrim becomes a Free City under 
>>international administration, and Sedonia cedes a small corridor of land 
>>to Mir, while grabbing a big chunk of land to the south bank of the Tal, 
>>from the Olozog Hills to Pran.
> 
> 
> The Therani perspective is that this is completely unacceptable.  They 
> would be willing to cede any claims to Kajir if Sedonia 1) formally agrees 
> to recognize the Therani government, and 2) agrees to provide help in 
> fighting the Olozog, but the rest of Tal river basin down to Unnirand is 
> theirs.

The Sedonian counteroffer is: Give us Kajir, and set the border along 
the south bank of the Tal to where the river turns northeast towards 
Wyr, thence in a straight line to the south bank of the Tal halfway 
between Unnirand and Pran, and we'll formally recognize the Therani, and 
provide help in suppressing the Olozog. Any deal which does not include 
Sedonian possession of Pran is a deal-breaker.

> The town of Corryn is the Morvali's one settled area and only port on the 
> MidSea.  They don't see what they gain by giving it up.

The Sedonian attitude on this point would be "Tribals? You don't 
negotiate with Tribals, you *dictate*." Well, that's maybe a little 
strong. Anyway, Corryn isn't a deal-breaker for Sedonia, so if Mir 
agrees, the Morvali can keep it. However, Sedonia does want Mir to have 
Tal, and will support Mir's taking the city.

Sedonia of course supports Kaeir's retention of the Saltrimi March, but 
would prefer that Saltrim be under joint rule.

Andrew

> 
>>In Proposal 2, Saltrim stays Kaeiran & Sedonia takes a smaller bite in 
>>the North . . . but in exchange for ceding its northern claims, Sedonia 
>>wants a free hand in re-annexing Zelkor.
> 
> 
> The Therani can't comment on Zelkor, but might be willing recognize 
> Sedonia's claim to Pran and Mir's claim Tal, giving up their own claim to 
> those areas.  In return they would like Sedonian aid in reclaiming the 
> Western Wyr river from the Olozog, and Mirrish funding and teachers for a 
> school of magic in Hadrair.  (Sedonia and Mir must also formally recognize 
> their nation, of course.)
> 
> The Morvali would like to claim Tal themselves, but would agree not to make 
> trouble for Mir if the Therani agree to help build and defend a new trade 
> town in the northern Olozog on the border with Hisaria.
> 
> Jefferson
> http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
> 
> 
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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

Andrew Janssen wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
>>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>>
>>>As you can see, in Proposal 1, Saltrim becomes a Free City under 
>>>international administration, and Sedonia cedes a small corridor of land 
>>>to Mir, while grabbing a big chunk of land to the south bank of the Tal, 
>>>from the Olozog Hills to Pran.
>>
>>The Therani perspective is that this is completely unacceptable.  They 
>>would be willing to cede any claims to Kajir if Sedonia 1) formally agrees 
>>to recognize the Therani government, and 2) agrees to provide help in 
>>fighting the Olozog, but the rest of Tal river basin down to Unnirand is 
>>theirs.
> 
> The Sedonian counteroffer is: Give us Kajir, and set the border along 
> the south bank of the Tal to where the river turns northeast towards 
> Wyr, thence in a straight line to the south bank of the Tal halfway 
> between Unnirand and Pran, and we'll formally recognize the Therani, and 
> provide help in suppressing the Olozog.

For an appropriate response I need to know why you want the south bank of 
the Tal.  It seems to me that the current frontier would be much more 
secure.  It also has a different terrain than neighboring Selaria, so 
making the area profitable would be expensive.

> Any deal which does not include 
> Sedonian possession of Pran is a deal-breaker.

Not even one which burns Pran to the ground?  (From what I've seen so far 
the Therani don't like Pran much either.)

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

--- Jefferson  wrote:

> Andrew Janssen wrote:
> > Jefferson wrote:
> >>Andrew Janssen wrote:
> >>
> >>>As you can see, in Proposal 1, Saltrim becomes a Free City under 
> >>>international administration, and Sedonia cedes a small corridor
> of land 
> >>>to Mir, while grabbing a big chunk of land to the south bank of
> the Tal, 
> >>>from the Olozog Hills to Pran.
> >>
> >>The Therani perspective is that this is completely unacceptable. 
> They 
> >>would be willing to cede any claims to Kajir if Sedonia 1) formally
> agrees 
> >>to recognize the Therani government, and 2) agrees to provide help
> in 
> >>fighting the Olozog, but the rest of Tal river basin down to
> Unnirand is 
> >>theirs.
> > 
> > The Sedonian counteroffer is: Give us Kajir, and set the border
> along 
> > the south bank of the Tal to where the river turns northeast
> towards 
> > Wyr, thence in a straight line to the south bank of the Tal halfway
> 
> > between Unnirand and Pran, and we'll formally recognize the
> Therani, and 
> > provide help in suppressing the Olozog.
> 
> For an appropriate response I need to know why you want the south
> bank of 
> the Tal.  It seems to me that the current frontier would be much more
> 
> secure.  It also has a different terrain than neighboring Selaria, so
> 
> making the area profitable would be expensive.

The terrain is not so different as all that, and from the Sedonian
perspective, a river is a more secure border than open plains. It's
easier to control crossing points, for one thing. And the expansionist
party in Sedonian politics is also pushing the matter.
 
> > Any deal which does not include 
> > Sedonian possession of Pran is a deal-breaker.
> 
> Not even one which burns Pran to the ground?  (From what I've seen so
> far 
> the Therani don't like Pran much either.)

Burning's too good for them. Besides, burning the infrastructure is
*such* a waste of materials. Decimation of the ruling class leaves the
buildings standing (mostly), while creating a power vacuum that the
Sedonian bureaucracy gladly fills.

Sedonia wants the leaders and upper-managment of the Taltherani trade
guilds, and particularly the Pran Guildsmen, dead. For one thing, if
you don't break the power of the guilds, Taltheran's ungovernable.
Agrigax managed to supress the guilds for a time, but they bounced back
after he died.

Andrew
 
> Jefferson
> http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html
> 
> 
> 
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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

To the Green Republic and Lord Boris van Adin, Consul of the Green Republic of Kaeir, 
we greet they our brother nation.
 
I thank you for the invitation to attended the confrence.  I regret to inform you that matters of state pervent myself from attending, but I am pleased to inform you that my noble son, Prince Niotrosa, ruler and prince of Yora'Timar will be in attendance.
 
We hope that this confrence will make it so that once again stablility and prosperity will come once again to the fertile Wyr valley.  We look forward to meeting with you in New Tirmaeir.
 
May the blessing of Miracradsa and all the Gods be upon you.
 
Written in my own hand
 
Eubratosa Celamyrsa.
Archmage of Mir
King of the Isle of Celamyr
Archmage of the Brotherhood of Sorcery
Protector of Mirabalpur

ibrahim  wrote:
To (the President of the United Provinces of Sedonia / the Archmage of 
Mir/substitute any relevant ruler's name)

Greetings and salutations from the Green Republic and the blessings of 
the Lady of the Isles.

The Green Republic of Kaeir wishes to extend an invitation to your 
esteemed self, or your honourable representative, to meet in the spring 
of 1457 in the Kaeirean dominion capital of New Tirmaeir to discuss the 
question of Taltheran in a conference of concerned nations, so as to 
ensure peace, stability and harmonious commerce in the Midsea.

A similiar invitation has also been sent to other interested powers, so 
as to ensure a broad basis for settling this vexing question, and 
ensuring the continuation of law, order and justice.

I look forward to your reply,

Lord Boris van Adin
Consul of the Green Republic of Kaeir

Jason Heaps wrote:

>I think that summit meeting would deffently be in order. :)
> 
>Jason Heaps
>
>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>If Taltheran were to be chopped up today, Kaeir would get the biggest 
>chunk, followed by Mir. Sedonia doesn't have a legion nearby, only 
>cavalry, and II Legion won't be in position until late 1457-early 1458 
>to intervene in Taltheran. That said, Sedonia has an old score to settle 
>with the city of Pran.
>
>How does a summit meeting some time in the next turn or two to discuss 
>the Taltherani Question sound?
>
>Andrew
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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

Andrew Janssen wrote:

> If Taltheran were to be chopped up today, Kaeir would get the biggest 
> chunk, followed by Mir. Sedonia doesn't have a legion nearby, only 
> cavalry, and II Legion won't be in position until late 1457-early 1458 
> to intervene in Taltheran. That said, Sedonia has an old score to settle 
> with the city of Pran.

Well, I was thinking that if Sedonia _doesn't_ get some part of Saltrim 
it's current border probably isn't viable.  In the long term whoever 
controls Saltrim is going to need some of the territory claimed by Sedonia.

> How does a summit meeting some time in the next turn or two to discuss 
> the Taltherani Question sound?

Goody.  If there's a summit can I play the Therani?

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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[Cel] Partitioning Taltheran

Invitation sent off to meet the city of New Tirmaeir in the spring of 47 
to discuss the matter.

Ibrahim

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>If Taltheran were to be chopped up today, Kaeir would get the biggest 
>chunk, followed by Mir. Sedonia doesn't have a legion nearby, only 
>cavalry, and II Legion won't be in position until late 1457-early 1458 
>to intervene in Taltheran. That said, Sedonia has an old score to settle 
>with the city of Pran.
>
>How does a summit meeting some time in the next turn or two to discuss 
>the Taltherani Question sound?
>
>Andrew
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>

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