Home | Forum | Unread | Sign in | Sign in | Beta? | Wiki
The Phoenyx
your roleplaying community

games > celandra > main

Celandra is a game in which the players take the roles of societies, rather than playing individual characters. The players will invent a society with its culture and heritage, and will guide its development and interaction with the world. Emphasis will be be placed on developing a detailed history of Celandra, along with myths and legends.
Subscribe | Unread | Recent | Group options | Topic options | Post
IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Mon

Jul 11
2005

09:57Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Principle points of the Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran.

Kaeir is not particularly bothered what happens with the rest of 
Taltheran, though it would be supportive of Sedonia and Mir's concerns 
in order to achieve its own demands.  However, it would prefer to see 
Morvali gain part of the Wyr Basin, but would concede that as a 
concession in order to achieve its own demands.

Ibrahim

----

- The Green Republic of Kaeir will formally absorb the Saltrimi 
Protectorate of the Marchlands, reconstituting it as the Dominion of 
Saltrim, in recognition of the wishes of the Houses of the Marchlands.

- Saltrim City shall be administered as a protectorate of a bi-annual 
tri-partite conference, and governed on a daily basis by a Kaeirean 
appointed governor who shall be advised by the Saltrim City Conclave, so 
as to better protect the rights and interests of the Houses of Saltrim 
City and of the Conclave in particular, whom both share a high degree of 
affinity with the Green Republic of Kaeir.

- Saltrim City and its surrounding districts shall become a protectorate 
of the Green Republic of Kaeir, who shall be responsible to the 
bi-annual tri-partite conference for the protectorate's domestic 
policies and the maintenance of law, order and commerce within the 
protectorate.  Matters of external policy shall be the domain of the 
bi-annual tri-partite conference.

- The Green Republic of Kaeir shall provide financial and administrative 
support to the protectorate so as to ensure that it remains a viable 
political entity.

- The Legion of the March shall be stationed within Saltrim city and its 
surrounding districts to ensure the continuance of law and order. 

- Citizens of Sedonia and Mir shall possess right of passage through 
Saltrim City and its surrounding districts, and Mirrish troops shall 
possess the right of passage through to the Wyr Basin (providing the 
governor and conclave of Saltrim City can guarantee a route free of 
hinderance).

- Sedonia and Mir shall possess the right to establish an autonomous 
enclave each in Saltrim City, with the associated customary rights.


================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Tue

Jul 12
2005

20:28Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

I've uploaded my own thoughts on the Taltheran partition to the Files page 
(http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/Files).

Sticking points for the the Therani:

Corryn and Tal, and Corryn and Pran must be under separate governments. 
Having Pran and Tal under the same government is acceptable.  (That way 
Therani trade with the MidSea, and even Midsea trade with Hisaria cannot be 
controlled by one nation.)

They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
were the lightest.  They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
  towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.

Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.

* * *

I'm writing a history of the Therani to bring them up to 1458.  Are there 
any official events for the Morvali and Therani after the Sinari war, but 
before 1436 that I should be aware of?

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/



----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Tue

Jul 12
2005

20:58Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Therani are NOT losing any land. Under Mirs or sedonia's adjusted proposal.
 
I also strongly disagree that Therani would care if Corryn was in Mirs hand as well as Tal.
 
More to the point Mir will not reconize Therani as an nation without Corryn.  And Corryn is not that important to the Therani since they don't even uses that port as a trade route.
 
Also weather Corryn is part of Mir or another country does not really affect it.  Since any trade that does to Corryn must be shiped on other nations ships.  Since the odds of the Therani haveing ships is not large at all.  So even if they do hve ships.  It would be a lot cheaper and easyer to send the ship down river and out to sea, even paying fees it would be cheaper then shiping it over land to Corryn and then haveing to hire a shipor selling to another nation. 
 
With Pran and Tal are governed by diffrent nations that would keep the prices down since the two would squarck over high fees.   Pran and Tal together allow for Higher taxes.  Tal and Corryn in the same country would not create a higher taxs.  Now if someone controled Tal, Corryn and Pran THAT would be a problem.  I beleave that Therani would not care at all about Corrym but would strongly be pushing for the seperation of Tal and Pran.
 
I strongly beleave the Therani are so happy that Tal and Pran are being seperated that they would not mind Mir annexing a port they dont even uses.  We also need to remember that none of us play the Therani so we can suggest what they would do, but none of us speaks for the country.
 
Jason Heaps

Jefferson  wrote:
I've uploaded my own thoughts on the Taltheran partition to the Files page 
(http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/Files).

Sticking points for the the Therani:

Corryn and Tal, and Corryn and Pran must be under separate governments. 
Having Pran and Tal under the same government is acceptable. (That way 
Therani trade with the MidSea, and even Midsea trade with Hisaria cannot be 
controlled by one nation.)

They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
were the lightest. They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.

Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.

* * *

I'm writing a history of the Therani to bring them up to 1458. Are there 
any official events for the Morvali and Therani after the Sinari war, but 
before 1436 that I should be aware of?

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/



----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Wed

Jul 13
2005

14:52Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Jason Heaps wrote:

> Therani are NOT losing any land. Under Mirs or sedonia's adjusted
> proposal.

Look at the maps. Both banks of the Middle Tal historically Therani.
It's politically impossible for them to give up that area.

> I also strongly disagree that Therani would care if Corryn was in Mirs
> hand as well as Tal.
>
> More to the point Mir will not reconize Therani as an nation without
> Corryn. And Corryn is not that important to the Therani since they don't
> even uses that port as a trade route.

See the updated history and comment there.

> Also weather Corryn is part of Mir or another country does not really
> affect it. Since any trade that does to Corryn must be shiped on other
> nations ships. Since the odds of the Therani haveing ships is not large
> at all. So even if they do hve ships. It would be a lot cheaper and
> easyer to send the ship down river and out to sea, even paying fees it
> would be cheaper then shiping it over land to Corryn and then haveing to
> hire a shipor selling to another nation.

The Therani do not have ships. Indeed, they aren't really merchants at
all. They wish to avoid the situation that existed prior to the
Taltheran civil war where a single nation monopolized the shipping in
that area of the MidSea. By selectively charging port fees and the like
a nation that controls both Corryn and Tal could assure that their own
shipping is favored and monopolize trade.

 > With Pran and Tal are governed by diffrent nations that would keep the
 > prices down since the two would squarck over high fees. Pran and Tal
 > together allow for Higher taxes. Tal and Corryn in the same country
 > would not create a higher taxs.

Pran and Tal are on the same route. Corryn is on a different route than
Tal. Without a real alternative arguments over fees don't mean much.
Prices will be held down much more effectively if Tal and Corryn are in
different hands.

 > Now if someone controled Tal, Corryn and Pran THAT would be a problem.
 > I beleave that Therani would not care at all about Corryn but would
 > strongly be pushing for the seperation of Tal and Pran.

Tal and Pran together is the current situation and they can work with
it.

 > I strongly beleave the Therani are so happy that Tal and Pran are
 > being seperated that they would not mind Mir annexing a port they dont
 > even uses.

They use it. They would have had to during the course of Taltheran's
civil war.

 > We also need to remember that none of us play the Therani so
 > we can suggest what they would do, but none of us speaks for the
 > country.

The place for this was in response to
http://www.phoenyx.net/celandra/2005/07/msg00049.html

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Wed

Jul 13
2005

15:08Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

--- Jefferson  wrote:

> Jason Heaps wrote:



> 
>  > With Pran and Tal are governed by diffrent nations that would keep
> the
>  > prices down since the two would squarck over high fees. Pran and
> Tal
>  > together allow for Higher taxes. Tal and Corryn in the same
> country
>  > would not create a higher taxs.
> 
> Pran and Tal are on the same route. Corryn is on a different route
> than
> Tal. Without a real alternative arguments over fees don't mean much.
> Prices will be held down much more effectively if Tal and Corryn are
> in
> different hands.

I have to say that I think that having Pran & Tal in different hands
would ultimately result in a higher tarriff burden for river shippers,
since goods would be taxed at each city seperately. Although, given the
way the Merchant Guilds of Taltheran have acted in the past, this may
already apply to non-Taltherani shippers.
 
Andrew
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Thu

Jul 14
2005

10:22Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Jefferson wrote:

>Jason Heaps wrote:
>
>  
>
> > I strongly beleave the Therani are so happy that Tal and Pran are
> > being seperated that they would not mind Mir annexing a port they dont
> > even uses.
>
>They use it. They would have had to during the course of Taltheran's
>civil war.
>
> > We also need to remember that none of us play the Therani so
> > we can suggest what they would do, but none of us speaks for the
> > country.
>
>The place for this was in response to
>http://www.phoenyx.net/celandra/2005/07/msg00049.html
>  
>
A good point Jefferson. I have no problem with you speaking for the 
Therani, as your own society has no interest in the NW Midsea (whereas 
the rest of us do ; ) ).

Ibrahim


================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Tue

Jul 12
2005

23:52Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Jefferson wrote:
> I've uploaded my own thoughts on the Taltheran partition to the Files page 
> (http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/Files).
> 
> Sticking points for the the Therani:
> 
> Corryn and Tal, and Corryn and Pran must be under separate governments. 
> Having Pran and Tal under the same government is acceptable.  (That way 
> Therani trade with the MidSea, and even Midsea trade with Hisaria cannot be 
> controlled by one nation.)

I can see why Pran & Tal being under the same government would be 
acceptable--goods only get taxed once. Frankly, though, if Mir & Sedonia 
decide that Mir gets Tal & Corryn, there's very little the Therani can 
do about it.

> They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
> Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
> were the lightest.  They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
>   towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.

At this point, Sedonia is supporting Mir's partition proposal. Either 
Mir's proposal or the Therani proposal, modified so that Corryn becomes 
a Mirrish protectorate would be acceptable

> Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.

Recognition is contingent on Theran's acceptance of Mirrish control over 
Corryn, either through the Mirrish proposal, or a variation on Theran's 
proposal. Sedonia is willing to offer development aid over and beyond 
military support against the Olozog to sweeten the pot. Between the 
lines, however, the Sedonians hint that if the Therani are *too* 
recalcitrant, that aid might go to the Olozog instead . . . they also 
point out that by 1458, there'll be four Legions with supporting cavalry 
on Sedonia's northern border, half of them combat veterans.

In seperate talks with Kaeir & Mir, Sedonia offers them the right to set 
up autonomous trading enclaves in Zelkor, provided that they agree to 
give the Sedonians a free hand in annexing the city.

> * * *
> 
> I'm writing a history of the Therani to bring them up to 1458.  Are there 
> any official events for the Morvali and Therani after the Sinari war, but 
> before 1436 that I should be aware of?
> 

None that I can recall.
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Wed

Jul 13
2005

01:33Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Also in addition to reconizing Therani and the ten years of no fees throw Tal, Mir will throw in several factors as well.  They will help in the rebuilding and also will help in holding off the Olozog,  Mir will supply troops to help the Therani and Sedonia in dealing with the Olozog, even using one of its dragons on reconisence missions. They are willing also join with Sedonia in extending help to rebuild.  (Most likely Sedonia will help with one of the ruined cities while the Mir will help with the other.)  Last Mir will allow a Therani autonomous enclave in the city of Tal (there might be an enclave in Tal already, so if their is it becomes autonomous.)  In exchange for Mir annexation (not the protectoret) of Corryn.
 
Jason Heaps

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
Jefferson wrote:
> I've uploaded my own thoughts on the Taltheran partition to the Files page 
> (http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/Files).
> 
> Sticking points for the the Therani:
> 
> Corryn and Tal, and Corryn and Pran must be under separate governments. 
> Having Pran and Tal under the same government is acceptable. (That way 
> Therani trade with the MidSea, and even Midsea trade with Hisaria cannot be 
> controlled by one nation.)

I can see why Pran & Tal being under the same government would be 
acceptable--goods only get taxed once. Frankly, though, if Mir & Sedonia 
decide that Mir gets Tal & Corryn, there's very little the Therani can 
do about it.

> They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
> Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
> were the lightest. They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
> towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.

At this point, Sedonia is supporting Mir's partition proposal. Either 
Mir's proposal or the Therani proposal, modified so that Corryn becomes 
a Mirrish protectorate would be acceptable

> Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.

Recognition is contingent on Theran's acceptance of Mirrish control over 
Corryn, either through the Mirrish proposal, or a variation on Theran's 
proposal. Sedonia is willing to offer development aid over and beyond 
military support against the Olozog to sweeten the pot. Between the 
lines, however, the Sedonians hint that if the Therani are *too* 
recalcitrant, that aid might go to the Olozog instead . . . they also 
point out that by 1458, there'll be four Legions with supporting cavalry 
on Sedonia's northern border, half of them combat veterans.

In seperate talks with Kaeir & Mir, Sedonia offers them the right to set 
up autonomous trading enclaves in Zelkor, provided that they agree to 
give the Sedonians a free hand in annexing the city.

> * * *
> 
> I'm writing a history of the Therani to bring them up to 1458. Are there 
> any official events for the Morvali and Therani after the Sinari war, but 
> before 1436 that I should be aware of?
> 

None that I can recall.
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Wed

Jul 13
2005

05:29Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Andrew Janssen wrote:


>>They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
>>Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
>>were the lightest.  They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
>>  towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.
>>    
>>
>
>At this point, Sedonia is supporting Mir's partition proposal. Either 
>Mir's proposal or the Therani proposal, modified so that Corryn becomes 
>a Mirrish protectorate would be acceptable
>  
>

Kaeir is extremely unhappy with the proposal for Mirrish control of 
Corryn.  Mirrish control of Corryn would mean that Mir controls 3 ports 
in the northern Midsea, something that does not sit well with Kaeirean 
commercial interests and its own sphere of influence (especially given 
that the NW Midsea is _not_ Mir's backyard, as it is the case with Kaeir).

Furthermore, Mirrish control of Corryn makes it an effective neighbour 
of the Commonwealth of the Shanariyya.  This is a great source of 
potential trouble, as harmonious relations between the greatest 
sorcerous power in Qaiyore and the very conservative homeland of the 
Millati religion will be extremely difficult to maintain.  In the event 
that a conflict errupts between Mirrish interests in Corryn and the 
Commonwealth, Kaeir will pulled in, either through its political 
agreements with the Commonwealth, or through private citizens 
volunteering to support the Commonwealth.  Should that happen, conflict 
would rapidly embrace most of the northern Midsea and pull in other 
nations as well, a situation no one would desire.  As the Kaeirean 
saying goes, "One does not put the woodpile next to the firepit".

Thus Kaeir has two objections to Mirrish control of Corryn - 
strategic/commercial, and political.


>>Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.
>>    
>>
>
>Recognition is contingent on Theran's acceptance of Mirrish control over 
>Corryn, either through the Mirrish proposal, or a variation on Theran's 
>proposal. Sedonia is willing to offer development aid over and beyond 
>  
>
Kaeir has found the Therani proposal the most agreeable to its interests 
so far, and suggests that the Sedonians and Therani work out an 
agreeable variation on the Therani proposal.

>In seperate talks with Kaeir & Mir, Sedonia offers them the right to set 
>up autonomous trading enclaves in Zelkor, provided that they agree to 
>give the Sedonians a free hand in annexing the city.
>  
>
The Inquisitor of the Green Republic of Kaeir, as the chief Kaeirean 
diplomat and the man charged with responsibility for negotiations by the 
Consul and the Senate, is satisfied with the Sedonian proposal on 
Zelkor, providing sufficient guarantees for the rights of a trading 
enclave are made.

>  
>
>>* * *
>>
>>I'm writing a history of the Therani to bring them up to 1458.  Are there 
>>any official events for the Morvali and Therani after the Sinari war, but 
>>before 1436 that I should be aware of?
>>    
>>
I think in your history you should consider the attitude of the Therani 
to the post-Sinari Shanari, and to the Millati religion as well. 

Ibrahim


================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Wed

Jul 13
2005

05:53Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Mir will push for Corryn and Corryn is what Mir wants in exchange for all of the agreements with the city of Saltrim.  That is what they agreed to in exchange for giving up the Mirrish corridor around Saltrim.  Other wise the conditions of Saltrium will be brough up again.
 
While I can understand you fear of contact between the two views.  I do not think that it will be such a problem.  First off Mir has no intrest in the desert.  They have more intrest in the fertile Tal/Wyr valley.  If you would like Mir would also be willing to sign a contract/deal of some sort where in Mir when dealing with the Shanari homeland will always have a kaeir millite advisor, or Kaeir advisor to help them when interacting with the Commonwealth.  I also would imagin that the Commonwealth has as little desire to deal and especially go to war with Mir and Mir does with them.  I really think that due to the nature of the area, and the fact that their is a large chunch of land between the two that is controled by the Morvali.  I think that it would really be an unfounded fear.
 
As for the Therani proposal Mir would have objected to it instantly since if moves the borders of Yora'Timar as well as Taltheran, and Mir will NOT move thoughs borders.  Again they are pushing for Corryn.
 
Jason Heaps
 
ps: Don't you just love the negotiations of nations :)

ibrahim  wrote:
Andrew Janssen wrote:


>>They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
>>Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
>>were the lightest. They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
>> towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.
>> 
>>
>
>At this point, Sedonia is supporting Mir's partition proposal. Either 
>Mir's proposal or the Therani proposal, modified so that Corryn becomes 
>a Mirrish protectorate would be acceptable
> 
>

Kaeir is extremely unhappy with the proposal for Mirrish control of 
Corryn. Mirrish control of Corryn would mean that Mir controls 3 ports 
in the northern Midsea, something that does not sit well with Kaeirean 
commercial interests and its own sphere of influence (especially given 
that the NW Midsea is _not_ Mir's backyard, as it is the case with Kaeir).

Furthermore, Mirrish control of Corryn makes it an effective neighbour 
of the Commonwealth of the Shanariyya. This is a great source of 
potential trouble, as harmonious relations between the greatest 
sorcerous power in Qaiyore and the very conservative homeland of the 
Millati religion will be extremely difficult to maintain. In the event 
that a conflict errupts between Mirrish interests in Corryn and the 
Commonwealth, Kaeir will pulled in, either through its political 
agreements with the Commonwealth, or through private citizens 
volunteering to support the Commonwealth. Should that happen, conflict 
would rapidly embrace most of the northern Midsea and pull in other 
nations as well, a situation no one would desire. As the Kaeirean 
saying goes, "One does not put the woodpile next to the firepit".

Thus Kaeir has two objections to Mirrish control of Corryn - 
strategic/commercial, and political.


>>Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.
>> 
>>
>
>Recognition is contingent on Theran's acceptance of Mirrish control over 
>Corryn, either through the Mirrish proposal, or a variation on Theran's 
>proposal. Sedonia is willing to offer development aid over and beyond 
> 
>
Kaeir has found the Therani proposal the most agreeable to its interests 
so far, and suggests that the Sedonians and Therani work out an 
agreeable variation on the Therani proposal.

>In seperate talks with Kaeir & Mir, Sedonia offers them the right to set 
>up autonomous trading enclaves in Zelkor, provided that they agree to 
>give the Sedonians a free hand in annexing the city.
> 
>
The Inquisitor of the Green Republic of Kaeir, as the chief Kaeirean 
diplomat and the man charged with responsibility for negotiations by the 
Consul and the Senate, is satisfied with the Sedonian proposal on 
Zelkor, providing sufficient guarantees for the rights of a trading 
enclave are made.

> 
>
>>* * *
>>
>>I'm writing a history of the Therani to bring them up to 1458. Are there 
>>any official events for the Morvali and Therani after the Sinari war, but 
>>before 1436 that I should be aware of?
>> 
>>
I think in your history you should consider the attitude of the Therani 
to the post-Sinari Shanari, and to the Millati religion as well. 

Ibrahim


================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

		
---------------------------------
 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Wed

Jul 13
2005

06:15Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Kaeir would be agreeable to the Mirrish position with the following 
provisions:

- Kaeir has the right to establish autonomous trading enclaves in Tal 
and Corryn.

- Mirrish authorities, when dealing with representatives of the 
Commonwealth of the Shanariyya, include in such discussions a Kaeirean 
advisor, who normally shall be the magister of the Kaeirean trading 
enclave of Corryn.

Ibrahim

p.s. and yes, it is fun negotiating the fate of nations!

Jason Heaps wrote:

>Mir will push for Corryn and Corryn is what Mir wants in exchange for all of the agreements with the city of Saltrim.  That is what they agreed to in exchange for giving up the Mirrish corridor around Saltrim.  Other wise the conditions of Saltrium will be brough up again.
> 
>While I can understand you fear of contact between the two views.  I do not think that it will be such a problem.  First off Mir has no intrest in the desert.  They have more intrest in the fertile Tal/Wyr valley.  If you would like Mir would also be willing to sign a contract/deal of some sort where in Mir when dealing with the Shanari homeland will always have a kaeir millite advisor, or Kaeir advisor to help them when interacting with the Commonwealth.  I also would imagin that the Commonwealth has as little desire to deal and especially go to war with Mir and Mir does with them.  I really think that due to the nature of the area, and the fact that their is a large chunch of land between the two that is controled by the Morvali.  I think that it would really be an unfounded fear.
> 
>As for the Therani proposal Mir would have objected to it instantly since if moves the borders of Yora'Timar as well as Taltheran, and Mir will NOT move thoughs borders.  Again they are pushing for Corryn.
> 
>Jason Heaps
> 
>ps: Don't you just love the negotiations of nations :)
>
>ibrahim  wrote:
>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>>>They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
>>>Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
>>>were the lightest. They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
>>>towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>At this point, Sedonia is supporting Mir's partition proposal. Either 
>>Mir's proposal or the Therani proposal, modified so that Corryn becomes 
>>a Mirrish protectorate would be acceptable
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Kaeir is extremely unhappy with the proposal for Mirrish control of 
>Corryn. Mirrish control of Corryn would mean that Mir controls 3 ports 
>in the northern Midsea, something that does not sit well with Kaeirean 
>commercial interests and its own sphere of influence (especially given 
>that the NW Midsea is _not_ Mir's backyard, as it is the case with Kaeir).
>
>Furthermore, Mirrish control of Corryn makes it an effective neighbour 
>of the Commonwealth of the Shanariyya. This is a great source of 
>potential trouble, as harmonious relations between the greatest 
>sorcerous power in Qaiyore and the very conservative homeland of the 
>Millati religion will be extremely difficult to maintain. In the event 
>that a conflict errupts between Mirrish interests in Corryn and the 
>Commonwealth, Kaeir will pulled in, either through its political 
>agreements with the Commonwealth, or through private citizens 
>volunteering to support the Commonwealth. Should that happen, conflict 
>would rapidly embrace most of the northern Midsea and pull in other 
>nations as well, a situation no one would desire. As the Kaeirean 
>saying goes, "One does not put the woodpile next to the firepit".
>
>Thus Kaeir has two objections to Mirrish control of Corryn - 
>strategic/commercial, and political.
>
>
>  
>
>>>Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Recognition is contingent on Theran's acceptance of Mirrish control over 
>>Corryn, either through the Mirrish proposal, or a variation on Theran's 
>>proposal. Sedonia is willing to offer development aid over and beyond 
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>Kaeir has found the Therani proposal the most agreeable to its interests 
>so far, and suggests that the Sedonians and Therani work out an 
>agreeable variation on the Therani proposal.
>
>  
>
>>In seperate talks with Kaeir & Mir, Sedonia offers them the right to set 
>>up autonomous trading enclaves in Zelkor, provided that they agree to 
>>give the Sedonians a free hand in annexing the city.
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>The Inquisitor of the Green Republic of Kaeir, as the chief Kaeirean 
>diplomat and the man charged with responsibility for negotiations by the 
>Consul and the Senate, is satisfied with the Sedonian proposal on 
>Zelkor, providing sufficient guarantees for the rights of a trading 
>enclave are made.
>
>  
>
>>    
>>
>>>* * *
>>>
>>>I'm writing a history of the Therani to bring them up to 1458. Are there 
>>>any official events for the Morvali and Therani after the Sinari war, but 
>>>before 1436 that I should be aware of?
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>I think in your history you should consider the attitude of the Therani 
>to the post-Sinari Shanari, and to the Millati religion as well. 
>
>Ibrahim
>
>
>================================
>Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
>================================
>This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you.
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>		
>---------------------------------
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ----------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>
>  
>

================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Wed

Jul 13
2005

06:24Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Mir can agree with both conditions.
 
Also Andrew, Mir would agree with Cedonia in regards to Zelkor with the condition of the atonomous enclave.

Jason Heaps
 
ps: hehe. This is so much fun.  :)

ibrahim  wrote:
Kaeir would be agreeable to the Mirrish position with the following 
provisions:

- Kaeir has the right to establish autonomous trading enclaves in Tal 
and Corryn.

- Mirrish authorities, when dealing with representatives of the 
Commonwealth of the Shanariyya, include in such discussions a Kaeirean 
advisor, who normally shall be the magister of the Kaeirean trading 
enclave of Corryn.

Ibrahim

p.s. and yes, it is fun negotiating the fate of nations!

Jason Heaps wrote:

>Mir will push for Corryn and Corryn is what Mir wants in exchange for all of the agreements with the city of Saltrim. That is what they agreed to in exchange for giving up the Mirrish corridor around Saltrim. Other wise the conditions of Saltrium will be brough up again.
> 
>While I can understand you fear of contact between the two views. I do not think that it will be such a problem. First off Mir has no intrest in the desert. They have more intrest in the fertile Tal/Wyr valley. If you would like Mir would also be willing to sign a contract/deal of some sort where in Mir when dealing with the Shanari homeland will always have a kaeir millite advisor, or Kaeir advisor to help them when interacting with the Commonwealth. I also would imagin that the Commonwealth has as little desire to deal and especially go to war with Mir and Mir does with them. I really think that due to the nature of the area, and the fact that their is a large chunch of land between the two that is controled by the Morvali. I think that it would really be an unfounded fear.
> 
>As for the Therani proposal Mir would have objected to it instantly since if moves the borders of Yora'Timar as well as Taltheran, and Mir will NOT move thoughs borders. Again they are pushing for Corryn.
> 
>Jason Heaps
> 
>ps: Don't you just love the negotiations of nations :)
>
>ibrahim wrote:
>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
>
> 
>
>>>They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
>>>Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
>>>were the lightest. They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
>>>towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>At this point, Sedonia is supporting Mir's partition proposal. Either 
>>Mir's proposal or the Therani proposal, modified so that Corryn becomes 
>>a Mirrish protectorate would be acceptable
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>
>Kaeir is extremely unhappy with the proposal for Mirrish control of 
>Corryn. Mirrish control of Corryn would mean that Mir controls 3 ports 
>in the northern Midsea, something that does not sit well with Kaeirean 
>commercial interests and its own sphere of influence (especially given 
>that the NW Midsea is _not_ Mir's backyard, as it is the case with Kaeir).
>
>Furthermore, Mirrish control of Corryn makes it an effective neighbour 
>of the Commonwealth of the Shanariyya. This is a great source of 
>potential trouble, as harmonious relations between the greatest 
>sorcerous power in Qaiyore and the very conservative homeland of the 
>Millati religion will be extremely difficult to maintain. In the event 
>that a conflict errupts between Mirrish interests in Corryn and the 
>Commonwealth, Kaeir will pulled in, either through its political 
>agreements with the Commonwealth, or through private citizens 
>volunteering to support the Commonwealth. Should that happen, conflict 
>would rapidly embrace most of the northern Midsea and pull in other 
>nations as well, a situation no one would desire. As the Kaeirean 
>saying goes, "One does not put the woodpile next to the firepit".
>
>Thus Kaeir has two objections to Mirrish control of Corryn - 
>strategic/commercial, and political.
>
>
> 
>
>>>Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>Recognition is contingent on Theran's acceptance of Mirrish control over 
>>Corryn, either through the Mirrish proposal, or a variation on Theran's 
>>proposal. Sedonia is willing to offer development aid over and beyond 
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>Kaeir has found the Therani proposal the most agreeable to its interests 
>so far, and suggests that the Sedonians and Therani work out an 
>agreeable variation on the Therani proposal.
>
> 
>
>>In seperate talks with Kaeir & Mir, Sedonia offers them the right to set 
>>up autonomous trading enclaves in Zelkor, provided that they agree to 
>>give the Sedonians a free hand in annexing the city.
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>The Inquisitor of the Green Republic of Kaeir, as the chief Kaeirean 
>diplomat and the man charged with responsibility for negotiations by the 
>Consul and the Senate, is satisfied with the Sedonian proposal on 
>Zelkor, providing sufficient guarantees for the rights of a trading 
>enclave are made.
>
> 
>
>> 
>>
>>>* * *
>>>
>>>I'm writing a history of the Therani to bring them up to 1458. Are there 
>>>any official events for the Morvali and Therani after the Sinari war, but 
>>>before 1436 that I should be aware of?
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>I think in your history you should consider the attitude of the Therani 
>to the post-Sinari Shanari, and to the Millati religion as well. 
>
>Ibrahim
>
>
>================================
>Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
>================================
>This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you.
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
> 
>---------------------------------
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ----------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>
> 
>

================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Wed

Jul 13
2005

15:14Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Jason Heaps wrote:

 > Mir will push for Corryn and Corryn is what Mir wants in exchange for
 > all of the agreements with the city of Saltrim. That is what they agreed
 > to in exchange for giving up the Mirrish corridor around Saltrim. Other
 > wise the conditions of Saltrium will be brought up again.

Corryn is Morvali and has always been Morvali. From the Therani
perspective the only reason that Mir might want Corryn is to kill it
since without Morvali support it will dry up and blow away.

 > As for the Therani proposal Mir would have objected to it instantly
 > since if moves the borders of Yora'Timar as well as Taltheran, and Mir
 > will NOT move thoughs borders. Again they are pushing for Corryn.

So Mir can move Wyrtal's long established borders but refuses to discuss
moving their own new borders? How . . . hypocritical of them.

Mir should be satisfied with Tal and not attempt to take revenge on
people who mostly weren't alive during the Sinari War.

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JeffersonWilson
Jefferson

Wed

Jul 13
2005

15:05Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Andrew Janssen wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
> 
>>I've uploaded my own thoughts on the Taltheran partition to the Files page 
>>(http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/Files).
>>
>>Sticking points for the the Therani:
>>
>>Corryn and Tal, and Corryn and Pran must be under separate governments. 
>>Having Pran and Tal under the same government is acceptable.  (That way 
>>Therani trade with the MidSea, and even Midsea trade with Hisaria cannot be 
>>controlled by one nation.)
> 
> I can see why Pran & Tal being under the same government would be 
> acceptable--goods only get taxed once. Frankly, though, if Mir & Sedonia 
> decide that Mir gets Tal & Corryn, there's very little the Therani can 
> do about it.

True.

>>They will not surrender any of their developed land without a fight. 
>>Particularly along the middle Tal, where the effects of the Sinari invasion 
>>were the lightest.  They would be willing to move their border with Sedonia 
>>towards the Tal, but not give up the whole south side of the river.
> 
> At this point, Sedonia is supporting Mir's partition proposal. Either 
> Mir's proposal or the Therani proposal, modified so that Corryn becomes 
> a Mirrish protectorate would be acceptable
> 
>>Sedonia must recognize the Therani as an independent nation.
> 
> Recognition is contingent on Theran's acceptance of Mirrish control over 
> Corryn, either through the Mirrish proposal, or a variation on Theran's 
> proposal. Sedonia is willing to offer development aid over and beyond 
> military support against the Olozog to sweeten the pot. Between the 
> lines, however, the Sedonians hint that if the Therani are *too* 
> recalcitrant, that aid might go to the Olozog instead . . . they also 
> point out that by 1458, there'll be four Legions with supporting cavalry 
> on Sedonia's northern border, half of them combat veterans.

The Therani reaction is, "It would be nice to have an effective enemy for a 
change."
Jason Heaps wrote:

 > Also in addition to reconizing Therani and the ten years of no fees
 > throw Tal, Mir will throw in several factors as well. They will help in
 > the rebuilding and also will help in holding off the Olozog,

How patronizing of you.

 > Mir will supply troops to help the Therani and Sedonia in dealing with
 > the Olozog, even using one of its dragons on reconisence missions. They
 > are willing also join with Sedonia in extending help to rebuild. (Most
 > likely Sedonia will help with one of the ruined cities while the Mir
 > will help with the other.)

Too bad Mir couldn't be bothered to do this after the Sinari war when it
might have made a difference.

 > Last Mir will allow a Therani autonomous enclave in the city of Tal
 > (there might be an enclave in Tal already, so if their is it becomes
 > autonomous.) In exchange for Mir annexation (not the protectoret) of
 > Corryn.

So basically Mir will perform a bunch of cheap and meaningless actions
in return for the power to completely dominate Wyrtal.

These are both unacceptable.  If Wyrtal is going to become a client of 
Sedonia or Mir they'd rather go out fighting.

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/



----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Wed

Jul 13
2005

16:00Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

At this point, the Sedonians decide to stop pushing on the issue of
Corryn. The Kaeiran point about the effects of Mir's control of Corryn
is persuasive.

Aside from that issue, the Sedonians are largely sticking to their
guns. They want Pran & surrounding region; they want Kajir, and they
want the south bank of the upper Tal River, as shown in the Mirrish
proposal. Sedonia has no interest in territory north of the Tal that's
west of Pran, except Kajir. A compromise on the exact extent of
Sedonian control of the South Bank may be possible, depending on what
sort of guarantees the Therani can make regarding the
cessation/prevention of cross-border raids.

On the Saltrim question, Sedonia is willing to cede a portion of
northeast Tirmar to Mir to connect Yora'Tirmar & the Mirrish portion of
Taltheran. They will of course want something in return.

Andrew


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Wed

Jul 13
2005

17:10Z

[Cel] Kaeirean proposal on Taltheran

Second Mirrish Proposal
 
http://www.phoenyx.net/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/Files
 
Mir will stop pushing for Corryn if the new borders in the second Mirrish proposal is excepted.  Mir and Sedonia will work out an agreement for the Mirrish corridor, which is part of the proposal, but only Mir and Sedonia are involved in that deal.  Mir is willing to offer ten years to Sedonia trade through Tal with out taxs, and an Atonomuos trade enclave in Tal.
 
Mir would still like Corryn.  Kaeir's enclaves and the advisor with the Commonwealth, which even only owning Tal, Mir might still have to deal with, are depent on Mir getting Corryn.  Military and other help to the Therani is depent on Mir getting Corryn.  Mir will still reconized the Therani nation, but will only give five years of no fees to the Therani through Tal unless they get Corryn in which it is still ten.  
 
Jason Heaps

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
At this point, the Sedonians decide to stop pushing on the issue of
Corryn. The Kaeiran point about the effects of Mir's control of Corryn
is persuasive.

Aside from that issue, the Sedonians are largely sticking to their
guns. They want Pran & surrounding region; they want Kajir, and they
want the south bank of the upper Tal River, as shown in the Mirrish
proposal. Sedonia has no interest in territory north of the Tal that's
west of Pran, except Kajir. A compromise on the exact extent of
Sedonian control of the South Bank may be possible, depending on what
sort of guarantees the Therani can make regarding the
cessation/prevention of cross-border raids.

On the Saltrim question, Sedonia is willing to cede a portion of
northeast Tirmar to Mir to connect Yora'Tirmar & the Mirrish portion of
Taltheran. They will of course want something in return.

Andrew


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Thu

Jul 14
2005

10:28Z

[Cel] Kaeirean summary of proposals

As the Kaeireans are organising this conference, the Office of the 
Inquisitor has taken upon itself to compile the avalanche of proposals 
and counter-proposals made by the various interested parties.  After 
much reading and re-reading of all the correspondence that has flown 
around the Midsea before the conference evens starts [I think of a line 
by Sir Humphrey from the British comedy "Yes Prime Minister" here - 
something like international negotiations were never left in the hands 
of jet-lagged world leaders but were always worked out far in advance by 
their bureaucrats!], the following list has been made, showing how the 
the status of Taltheran has been resolved and to whom does 
responsibility for various parts of Taltheran fall.

Note that the Office of the Inquisitor of the Green Republic of Kaeir 
does not comment on the method for applying any of these proposals.

"-" indicates generally agreed upon points, "*" indicates Kaeirean 
suggested compromises.


1.  Mir
-Gains Tal
-Gains Tal River Basin until the point between Pran and Corryn (the 
northern section of Taltheran going to the Therani) and excluding the 
southern bank around Pran.
-Sedonian concession to form corridor.
-Kaeirean contribution to corridor.

2.  Sedonia
- Gains Pran.
- Annexes Zelkor.
- Gains Kajir
- South bank of the upper Tal river as per the 1st & 2nd Mirrish proposal.
- 10 year tax-exempt status for Sedonian traders in Tal.
- Autonomous trade enclave in Tal.


3.  Kaeir
- Gains Saltrim March
- Administers Saltrim City Protectorate.
- Gains autonomous trade enclave in Zelkor.


4.  Therani
- Gains Unnirand-Corryn corridor.
- Gains Sedonian, Mirrish and Kaeirean recognition.
- Gains 5 year tax-emption for Therani traders in Tal.
* Offered a negotiations with Kaeir to form a trade agreement.

Status of Corryn (proposals to date):
* Under Mirrish administration as a protectorate.
* Under Kaeirean administration as a protectorate with a Therani advisor 
until such time as the Therani are capable of administering the city (5 
years?)
* Under Morvali administration.
* Under Therani administration.
* Under the administration of the Keeper of the Holy Tower of the South.


================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Thu

Jul 14
2005

10:57Z

[Cel] Kaeirean summary of proposals (Kaeirean view of summary)

ibrahim wrote:

>As the Kaeireans are organising this conference, the Office of the 
>Inquisitor has taken upon itself to compile the avalanche of proposals 
>and counter-proposals made by the various interested parties.  After 
>much reading and re-reading of all the correspondence that has flown 
>around the Midsea before the conference evens starts [I think of a line 
>by Sir Humphrey from the British comedy "Yes Prime Minister" here - 
>something like international negotiations were never left in the hands 
>of jet-lagged world leaders but were always worked out far in advance by 
>their bureaucrats!], the following list has been made, showing how the 
>the status of Taltheran has been resolved and to whom does 
>responsibility for various parts of Taltheran fall.
>
>Note that the Office of the Inquisitor of the Green Republic of Kaeir 
>does not comment on the method for applying any of these proposals.
>
>"-" indicates generally agreed upon points, "*" indicates Kaeirean 
>suggested compromises.
>  
>
The Green Republic of Kaeir, being descended from the Taltherani 
Principality of Kaeir, believes that it, of the conference participants 
possesses the greatest claim to Taltheran, especially given that its 
claim to a Greater Republic, a claim that has never been formally 
renounced by the Green Republic of Kaeir.

Additionally, the Green Republic of Kaeir possesses far greater ethnic, 
linguistic, cultural, commercial and political ties with Taltheran than 
the two great powers.

Lastly, the Green Republic is the only participant at the conference to 
have expended money, resources and lives in its struggle with Taltherani 
Kingdom (Mir, at one point, opposing the Kaeirean efforts that led to 
this very conference being able to be convened).

These facts Kaeir would like to remind the other conference 
participants, and that the result of the conference should be one that 
is mutually satisfying not only to the conference participants but to 
all the societies bordering Taltheran.

>
>1.  Mir
>-Gains Tal
>-Gains Tal River Basin until the point between Pran and Corryn (the 
>northern section of Taltheran going to the Therani) and excluding the 
>southern bank around Pran.
>-Sedonian concession to form corridor.
>-Kaeirean contribution to corridor.
>  
>
Kaeir has little opinion on the Mirrish gains, aside from reminding Mir 
of that the fact that Mir will gain a considerable portion of territory 
for little cost.


>2.  Sedonia
>- Gains Pran.
>- Annexes Zelkor.
>- Gains Kajir
>- South bank of the upper Tal river as per the 1st & 2nd Mirrish proposal.
>- 10 year tax-exempt status for Sedonian traders in Tal.
>- Autonomous trade enclave in Tal.
>  
>
Kaeir has little opinion on the Sedonian gains, aside from reminding 
Sedonia of that the fact that Sedonia will gain a considerable portion 
of territory for little cost.

>
>3.  Kaeir
>- Gains Saltrim March
>- Administers Saltrim City Protectorate.
>- Gains autonomous trade enclave in Zelkor.
>  
>
As Kaeir has effectively already realised the territorial gains, Kaeir 
feels it is the most justified of all the conference participants in 
making its claims.  It would have preferred that Mir had been less 
retentive in the discussions over trade enclaves, especially given how 
hospitable Kaeir has been in these discussions over a kingdom that Kaeir 
still holds legitimate claims to.  Nevertheless, Kaeir feels that if the 
issue of Corryn can be resolved, then a _*common consensus*_ is very 
much in reach.

At this point Kaeir would like to make plain that it views the Port of 
Jabau, the Jabuasi people, and the Commonwealth of the Shanariyya as 
being within its sphere of influence (as it also does the Panchayyah).  
Interference in Port Jabau by any other nation would be highly 
unacceptable to the Green Republic.

Furthermore, the Green Republic will in the future, support efforts by 
the Commonwealth of the Shanariyya to force a change to Milakanuri 
religious laws, and the emancipation of the underground Millati church 
in Milakanur.  Interference in that matter will also be highly unacceptable.

>
>4.  Therani
>- Gains Unnirand-Corryn corridor.
>- Gains Sedonian, Mirrish and Kaeirean recognition.
>- Gains 5 year tax-emption for Therani traders in Tal.
>* Offered a negotiations with Kaeir to form a trade agreement.
>  
>
In the opinion of Kaeir, Therani has gained little from these 
discussions - indeed it has lost some of its ancestral lands, though an 
honourable recognition of the Therani by Mir and Sedonia shall be a good 
thing for regional stability. It is because of the limited gains of the 
Therani that Kaeir feels that the status of Corryn should be resolved in 
favour of the Therani somehow.

>Status of Corryn (proposals to date):
>* Under Mirrish administration as a protectorate.
>* Under Kaeirean administration as a protectorate with a Therani advisor 
>until such time as the Therani are capable of administering the city (5 
>years?)
>* Under Morvali administration.
>* Under Therani administration.
>* Under the administration of the Keeper of the Holy Tower of the South.
>  
>
Corryn is the last bone of contention in these negotiations.  Kaeir's 
position has already been made quite clear - that the Mirrish 
administration of Corryn shall endanger the region by the disturbance it 
shall create in the geo-political equilibrium of the region, and that a 
Therani port is critically important.  None have argued for Morvali 
administration - indeed such a thing might see the rapid decline of the 
city - Kaeir supports the Therani proposals for the resolution of the 
Corryn question, namely (and in this order): 1) Kaeirean administration 
on behalf of the Morvali/Therani, 2) Therani administration, or 3) 
administration of the city under a non-political body acceptable to the 
parties concerned.



================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JuhaVesanto
juuso

Wed

Jul 20
2005

04:18Z

[Cel] Kaeirean summary of proposals (Kaeirean view of summary)

ibrahim wrote:
>>1.  Mir
>>-Gains Tal
>>-Gains Tal River Basin until the point between Pran and Corryn (the 
>>northern section of Taltheran going to the Therani) and excluding the 
>>southern bank around Pran.
>>-Sedonian concession to form corridor.
>>-Kaeirean contribution to corridor.
>> 
>>
> 
> Kaeir has little opinion on the Mirrish gains, aside from reminding Mir 
> of that the fact that Mir will gain a considerable portion of territory 
> for little cost.

Hmm... has somebody thought to ask Taltherans about the "little cost"?
Compared to Sedonia and Mir, the military power of Tal is relatively
small, but *not* to be underestimated. If word of this conference leaks
out to Taltheran, that *may* be just the thing to truly unite the 
country against foreign threats. With suitable application of
diplomacy and divide-and-conquer tactics that can be avoided, but still
the mechant guilds and especially the wizards will not give up their
power and position without a serious fight.

> In the opinion of Kaeir, Therani has gained little from these 
> discussions - indeed it has lost some of its ancestral lands, though an 
> honourable recognition of the Therani by Mir and Sedonia shall be a good 
> thing for regional stability. It is because of the limited gains of the 
> Therani that Kaeir feels that the status of Corryn should be resolved in 
> favour of the Therani somehow.

As an outside observer, I tend to agree with this, although I think
Jefferson has overdone the influence of Tal control over the Therani
trade. If caravans can make their way to Corryn, they can surely
make their way to Sedonian cities and ports.

Question: why couldn't the status of Corryn remain as it is
(under Morvali control)? It is a relatively insignificant small port at 
the edge of a desert, and nobody has so far had any issues with it. It 
is certainly not part of Taltheran. Tal will remain the most important
port of the region anyway, being at the mouth of river Tal.

juuso
----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Wed

Jul 20
2005

04:42Z

[Cel] Kaeirean summary of proposals (Kaeirean view of summary)

Juha Vesanto wrote:

> ibrahim wrote:
> 
>>>1.  Mir
>>>-Gains Tal
>>>-Gains Tal River Basin until the point between Pran and Corryn (the 
>>>northern section of Taltheran going to the Therani) and excluding the 
>>>southern bank around Pran.
>>>-Sedonian concession to form corridor.
>>>-Kaeirean contribution to corridor.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Kaeir has little opinion on the Mirrish gains, aside from reminding Mir 
>>of that the fact that Mir will gain a considerable portion of territory 
>>for little cost.
> 
> 
> Hmm... has somebody thought to ask Taltherans about the "little cost"?
> Compared to Sedonia and Mir, the military power of Tal is relatively
> small, but *not* to be underestimated. If word of this conference leaks
> out to Taltheran, that *may* be just the thing to truly unite the 
> country against foreign threats. With suitable application of
> diplomacy and divide-and-conquer tactics that can be avoided, but still
> the mechant guilds and especially the wizards will not give up their
> power and position without a serious fight.
> 

In one word: dragons. (At least for the Mir). In addition, by my 
estimates, even allowing for border security needs, the Sedonian Legions 
available for action in Taltheran outnumber the Taltherani army by at 
least 2 to 1, possibly as much as 4 to 1 if you don't count militia. The 
Legions are all ready quality troops, and in addition, quantity has a 
quality all it own.

In addition, if the Taltherani merchant guilds haven't remembered the 
lessons of the Sinari War, their command-and-control is going to well 
and truly stink. (It took an extremely pointy--I mean, pointed 
demonstration from the Warlord Riacradsa to convince the Taltherani 
guildsmen that unified command structures are A Good Thing(tm).)

>>In the opinion of Kaeir, Therani has gained little from these 
>>discussions - indeed it has lost some of its ancestral lands, though an 
>>honourable recognition of the Therani by Mir and Sedonia shall be a good 
>>thing for regional stability. It is because of the limited gains of the 
>>Therani that Kaeir feels that the status of Corryn should be resolved in 
>>favour of the Therani somehow.
> 
> 
> As an outside observer, I tend to agree with this, although I think
> Jefferson has overdone the influence of Tal control over the Therani
> trade. If caravans can make their way to Corryn, they can surely
> make their way to Sedonian cities and ports.

That was one of the reasons Sedonia wanted the South Bank of the 
Tal--there are these old plans for a Grand Canal, see . . .

> Question: why couldn't the status of Corryn remain as it is
> (under Morvali control)? It is a relatively insignificant small port at 
> the edge of a desert, and nobody has so far had any issues with it. It 
> is certainly not part of Taltheran. Tal will remain the most important
> port of the region anyway, being at the mouth of river Tal.

Personally, I think people just got a little grabby--probably partly my 
fault for putting the idea in people's heads.

Andrew

> juuso
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> 

----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Wed

Jul 20
2005

04:48Z

[Cel] Kaeirean summary of proposals (Kaeirean view of summary)

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>Juha Vesanto wrote:
>  
>
>>Question: why couldn't the status of Corryn remain as it is
>>(under Morvali control)? It is a relatively insignificant small port at 
>>the edge of a desert, and nobody has so far had any issues with it. It 
>>is certainly not part of Taltheran. Tal will remain the most important
>>port of the region anyway, being at the mouth of river Tal.
>>    
>>
>
>Personally, I think people just got a little grabby--probably partly my 
>fault for putting the idea in people's heads.
>  
>
True, though Kaeir is less worried about all of this given most of its 
concerns have been realised already.

Ibrahim

================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
IbrahimDughlasGa
ibrahim

Wed

Jul 20
2005

04:57Z

[Cel] Kaeirean summary of proposals (Kaeirean view of summary)

ibrahim wrote:

>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Juha Vesanto wrote:
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Question: why couldn't the status of Corryn remain as it is
>>>(under Morvali control)? It is a relatively insignificant small port at 
>>>the edge of a desert, and nobody has so far had any issues with it. It 
>>>is certainly not part of Taltheran. Tal will remain the most important
>>>port of the region anyway, being at the mouth of river Tal.
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Personally, I think people just got a little grabby--probably partly my 
>>fault for putting the idea in people's heads.
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>True, though Kaeir is less worried about all of this given most of its 
>concerns have been realised already.
>  
>
However this whole conference establishes a type of precent in Midsea 
law, much like the Conferences of Berlin.

Ibrahim

================================
Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
================================
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.


----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Wed

Jul 20
2005

05:00Z

[Cel] Kaeirean summary of proposals (Kaeirean view of summary)

ibrahim wrote:

> ibrahim wrote:
> 
> 
>>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>>Juha Vesanto wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>>>Question: why couldn't the status of Corryn remain as it is
>>>>(under Morvali control)? It is a relatively insignificant small port at 
>>>>the edge of a desert, and nobody has so far had any issues with it. It 
>>>>is certainly not part of Taltheran. Tal will remain the most important
>>>>port of the region anyway, being at the mouth of river Tal.
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>
>>>Personally, I think people just got a little grabby--probably partly my 
>>>fault for putting the idea in people's heads.
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>
>>True, though Kaeir is less worried about all of this given most of its 
>>concerns have been realised already.
>> 
>>
> 
> However this whole conference establishes a type of precent in Midsea 
> law, much like the Conferences of Berlin.

Or Vienna, or Paris, or Yalta, or Casablanca . . .

On a different note, Mir, Kaeir, and Sedonia represent the three major 
MidSea powers in different spheres:

Sedonia: Military
Mir: Magic
Kaeir: Economic

Andrew

> Ibrahim
> 
> ================================
> Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
> ================================
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential.  If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message.  Thank you.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> 

----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|
| Add reply
JasonHeaps
Jason Heaps

Wed

Jul 20
2005

06:43Z

[Cel] Kaeirean summary of proposals (Kaeirean view of summary)

question.  This was taking place next year in 47 correct.  So were we all doing the take over in 47 or 48.
 
Jason Heaps

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
ibrahim wrote:

> ibrahim wrote:
> 
> 
>>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>>Juha Vesanto wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>>Question: why couldn't the status of Corryn remain as it is
>>>>(under Morvali control)? It is a relatively insignificant small port at 
>>>>the edge of a desert, and nobody has so far had any issues with it. It 
>>>>is certainly not part of Taltheran. Tal will remain the most important
>>>>port of the region anyway, being at the mouth of river Tal.
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>
>>>Personally, I think people just got a little grabby--probably partly my 
>>>fault for putting the idea in people's heads.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>
>>True, though Kaeir is less worried about all of this given most of its 
>>concerns have been realised already.
>> 
>>
> 
> However this whole conference establishes a type of precent in Midsea 
> law, much like the Conferences of Berlin.

Or Vienna, or Paris, or Yalta, or Casablanca . . .

On a different note, Mir, Kaeir, and Sedonia represent the three major 
MidSea powers in different spheres:

Sedonia: Military
Mir: Magic
Kaeir: Economic

Andrew

> Ibrahim
> 
> ================================
> Confidentiality Statement and Disclaimer 
> ================================
> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and contains information that is privileged and confidential. If you, the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this communication. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by return email and delete the original message. Thank you.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
> 

----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
Permalink | Thread |
|