[Cel] [Rules] Fudge points: final ruling, please

Hi

This issue has generated a lot more feelings than I expected.
My reasoning for suggesting the 8 point limit was that except
in special situations like this, players do not typically *have*
more that 2-6 fudge points to spend. Jeff plays differently
(which is ok, no problem, I would probably do the same) in that he saves 
them up and spends them all at once. I just felt that in this special 
situation if somebody used 24 points *at once in a single turn* having
3 more or less *guaranteed* Great successes (and fair chances
of a few of them being Superb successes), the feeling of
*game* would go out of the window. Thus the limit.

Jason lined out that 8 points is the maximum, and 4 points
is the maximum if the action effects other societies (external). In 
principle I think this is ok. On the other hand, using fudge points is 
under GM discretion anyway, so it is upto GM to rule out any 
inappropriate usage of fudge points (whether internal or external).
And IMHO, simple rules are always better than complex ones
(of course, this line of thought directly leads to the original 
situation: no limits). Anyway, after Jason's post Andrew suggested the 
16 points limit.

Please, let's hear Jason's final ruling on this, ok? Remember that
for the first 6 years the game was played without *any* fudge
points. They were added to the game 2 years ago.

juuso



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[Cel] [Rules] Fudge points: final ruling, please

Juha Vesanto wrote:

>Hi
>
>This issue has generated a lot more feelings than I expected.
>My reasoning for suggesting the 8 point limit was that except
>in special situations like this, players do not typically *have*
>more that 2-6 fudge points to spend. Jeff plays differently
>(which is ok, no problem, I would probably do the same) in that he saves 
>them up and spends them all at once. I just felt that in this special 
>situation if somebody used 24 points *at once in a single turn* having
>3 more or less *guaranteed* Great successes (and fair chances
>of a few of them being Superb successes), the feeling of
>*game* would go out of the window. Thus the limit.
>
>Jason lined out that 8 points is the maximum, and 4 points
>is the maximum if the action effects other societies (external). In 
>principle I think this is ok. On the other hand, using fudge points is 
>under GM discretion anyway, so it is upto GM to rule out any 
>inappropriate usage of fudge points (whether internal or external).
>And IMHO, simple rules are always better than complex ones
>(of course, this line of thought directly leads to the original 
>situation: no limits). Anyway, after Jason's post Andrew suggested the 
>16 points limit.
>
>Please, let's hear Jason's final ruling on this, ok? Remember that
>for the first 6 years the game was played without *any* fudge
>points. They were added to the game 2 years ago.
>
>juuso
>  
>

True true Juuso.

An 8 point limit is ok i think, though perhaps exceptions are ok if 
discussed prior with the GM (exceptional circumstances)?

Ibrahim

>
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[Cel] [Rules] Fudge points: final ruling, please

I agree, 8 and 4 are understandable limits but if contact with the dm is 
made for special reasons than that is just fine, although it could possibly 
lead to problems bettween players or hard feelings towards the dm.


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[Cel] [Rules] Fudge points: final ruling, please

After thinking about it some more.  I have desided to stick with my previous desion of 8 fp per player per year.  Also the rule that only the uses of 4 fp for actions dealing with other societies.
 
If you do have an epic action or something that you really think would require more then go ahead and email me and persent the case.  I am willing to listen, if nothing else we can hopefully work out a way for the action to be performed.
 
Jason Heaps

Juha Vesanto  wrote:
Hi

This issue has generated a lot more feelings than I expected.
My reasoning for suggesting the 8 point limit was that except
in special situations like this, players do not typically *have*
more that 2-6 fudge points to spend. Jeff plays differently
(which is ok, no problem, I would probably do the same) in that he saves 
them up and spends them all at once. I just felt that in this special 
situation if somebody used 24 points *at once in a single turn* having
3 more or less *guaranteed* Great successes (and fair chances
of a few of them being Superb successes), the feeling of
*game* would go out of the window. Thus the limit.

Jason lined out that 8 points is the maximum, and 4 points
is the maximum if the action effects other societies (external). In 
principle I think this is ok. On the other hand, using fudge points is 
under GM discretion anyway, so it is upto GM to rule out any 
inappropriate usage of fudge points (whether internal or external).
And IMHO, simple rules are always better than complex ones
(of course, this line of thought directly leads to the original 
situation: no limits). Anyway, after Jason's post Andrew suggested the 
16 points limit.

Please, let's hear Jason's final ruling on this, ok? Remember that
for the first 6 years the game was played without *any* fudge
points. They were added to the game 2 years ago.

juuso



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[Cel] [Rules] Fudge points: final ruling, please

I have tried to be polite, but my comments have been ignored. I have
offered compromises, and been ignored. Since I apparently haven't made
myself clear I must now resort to being rude.

Jason Heaps wrote:

 > After thinking about it some more.

If you've thought about it a lot you should be able to explain your
explain your reasoning. So far you haven't explained a damn thing.

 > I have desided to stick with my previous desion of 8 fp per player per
 > year.

If you don't like my playing style, why not just ask me to leave?

As has been obvious for some time, I will be spending 8 points on
expansion this turn, and events mean that I also need to spend points
elsewhere. Since I wasn't sure about my fudge points I didn't make an
action last turn that I might have. This ruling is obviously designed
specifically to penalize me.

 > Also the rule that only the uses of 4 fp for actions dealing with
 > other societies.

All my events deal with other societies. So now you're saying that I can
only spend 4 points on _any_ action.

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/



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[Cel] [Rules] Fudge points: final ruling, please

Ok, now here's my two cents: I was wrong to support the idea of limiting 
fudge point expenditures.  The wider ramifications never occurred to me, 
since as Juuso said, it's been rare that anyone has had much more than 8 
fudge points on any given turn.

Jefferson wrote:



> As has been obvious for some time, I will be spending 8 points on
> expansion this turn, and events mean that I also need to spend points
> elsewhere. Since I wasn't sure about my fudge points I didn't make an
> action last turn that I might have. This ruling is obviously designed
> specifically to penalize me.

I don't think that was intentional--it seems more likely to be the case 
that no-one even considered the ramifications.

>  > Also the rule that only the uses of 4 fp for actions dealing with
>  > other societies.
> 
> All my events deal with other societies. So now you're saying that I can
> only spend 4 points on _any_ action.

If you look at the original proposal, the rule was to have been "no more 
than 4 points on an action affecting another society without the consent 
of the society's player," which I take to mean that the 4fp limit 
doesn't apply to non-player societies.

I have to say, looking back on the discussion, that we've been too hasty 
on the whole question of fudge point limits, and, frankly, the 
hypothetical benefits of such limits are not worth alienating some of 
our most creative & enthusiastic players. I strongly encourage Jason to 
reconsider this rule.

Andrew
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[Cel] [Rules] Fudge points: final ruling, please

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>>> Also the rule that only the uses of 4 fp for actions dealing with
>>> other societies.
>>
>>All my events deal with other societies. So now you're saying that I can
>>only spend 4 points on _any_ action.
> 
> If you look at the original proposal, the rule was to have been "no more 
> than 4 points on an action affecting another society without the consent 
> of the society's player," which I take to mean that the 4fp limit 
> doesn't apply to non-player societies.

Yes.  And I can see a reason for limiting fudge points which affect other 
players in certain ways.  My response was regarding what was written above 
which is MUCH too broad.  Consider a new player who wants to play a 
merchant house/company from Kaeir or Sedonia?  Should that society be 
limited to 4 fudge point actions when most of what it does doesn't affect 
the parent society's determinants in any way?  If restricted to PLAYERS' 
DETERMINANTS and ACTIONS (and note the addition of actions is a change from 
my previous proposal) it makes sense.  Also, suppose two players _want_ to 
cooperate?  If multiple players want to cooperate why should they be 
restricted to 4 points each?  Without these limitations it just looks like 
a way for the GM to screw over players whenever he wants.

More specifically, consider my conversion action.  That affects other 
player's societies.  HOWEVER, it doesn't affect their DETERMINANTS in any 
way.  Even a society with a Miserable (-4) Religious Diversity wouldn't be 
affected until membership passes 1 in 162 (3^4 * 2).  This restriction may 
not seem like a big deal to other people, but it means that my society has 
to spend so much effort on expansion that they can't do anything else. 
Repeating the same actions every turn doesn't sound like a lot of fun, does it?

-- 
Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/Exq_Main.html



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[Cel] [Rules] Fudge points: final ruling, please

Jefferson wrote:
> Andrew Janssen wrote:
> 
> 
>>>>Also the rule that only the uses of 4 fp for actions dealing with
>>>>other societies.
>>>
>>>All my events deal with other societies. So now you're saying that I can
>>>only spend 4 points on _any_ action.
>>
>>If you look at the original proposal, the rule was to have been "no more 
>>than 4 points on an action affecting another society without the consent 
>>of the society's player," which I take to mean that the 4fp limit 
>>doesn't apply to non-player societies.
> 
> 
> Yes.  And I can see a reason for limiting fudge points which affect other 
> players in certain ways.  My response was regarding what was written above 
> which is MUCH too broad.  Consider a new player who wants to play a 
> merchant house/company from Kaeir or Sedonia?  Should that society be 
> limited to 4 fudge point actions when most of what it does doesn't affect 
> the parent society's determinants in any way?  If restricted to PLAYERS' 
> DETERMINANTS and ACTIONS (and note the addition of actions is a change from 
> my previous proposal) it makes sense.  Also, suppose two players _want_ to 
> cooperate?  If multiple players want to cooperate why should they be 
> restricted to 4 points each?  Without these limitations it just looks like 
> a way for the GM to screw over players whenever he wants.

My understanding had been that the limit didn't apply to cooperative 
action, but you're right, that wasn't explicitly laid out.

It seems like we've been doing too much "Act in haste, repent at 
leisure," on this issue.

> More specifically, consider my conversion action.  That affects other 
> player's societies.  HOWEVER, it doesn't affect their DETERMINANTS in any 
> way.  Even a society with a Miserable (-4) Religious Diversity wouldn't be 
> affected until membership passes 1 in 162 (3^4 * 2).  This restriction may 
> not seem like a big deal to other people, but it means that my society has 
> to spend so much effort on expansion that they can't do anything else. 
> Repeating the same actions every turn doesn't sound like a lot of fun, does it?
> 

I certainly see your point. I think this illustrates the need for a 
general clarification/update of the rules--it seems that each of us has 
different ideas in mind when we think about the rules of the game.

I'd certainly be willing to help in such a project, but I'm going to be 
gone from the 9th to the 17th, and I probably won't have access to the 
Net during that time. However, I think that it's necessary, for fairness 
and clarity's sake.

Andrew
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