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Celandra is a game in which the players take the roles of societies, rather than playing individual characters. The players will invent a society with its culture and heritage, and will guide its development and interaction with the world. Emphasis will be be placed on developing a detailed history of Celandra, along with myths and legends.
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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Tue

Oct 18
2005

01:36Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

I think I'm finally starting to get a grip on the Combat in IH table: 
Military sizes such as Fair, Great, or Small are not absolutes, but are 
measured relative to the Size/Scope of the Society the military force 
belongs to--it's the only way I can get 
http://users.tkk.fi/~vesanto/ihfudge/military.html to make sense.

Size        Population  Military%  Nominal   Standing#  Provisional#
-----       ----------  ---------  --------  ---------  ------------
Vast        >500 mil      0.1%     >500'000  >200'000   >2 mil
Huge        500 mil       0.1%      500'000   200'000    2 mil
Great       200 mil       0.1%      200'000   100'000    500'000
Big         20 mil        0.5%      100'000    30'000    200'000
Fair        2 mil         1.5%       30'000    10'000    100'000
Mediocre    200'000         5%       10'000     3'000     30'000
Small       20'000         15%        3'000     1'000     10'000
Very small  2'000          50%        1'000       300      2'000
Tiny        200           100%          200        20        200

A force of size Fair = Nation's population * Military%.

So for the major players:

Country		1458 Pop.	Military%	Force Size of Fair
-----------	---------	---------	------------------
Kaeir		  810,000	   5%		      40,500
Mir		2,600,000	  1.5%		      39,000
Rhudyn/Tana*	1,800,000	  1.5%		      27,000
Sedonia	       24,000,000	  0.5%		     120,000
Tanimbar*       1,800,000  	  1.5%		      27,000
Zelkor		  317,000	   5%		      15,850

I used 1.5% for Rhudyn/Tana and Tanimbar because 1.8 million is closer 
to 2 million than it is to 200,000.

To find other sizes, use this table, where X=Size of Fair:

Nation
  Size	    Step Down	   Step Up
------      ---------	   -------
Vast           X/2           X*5
Huge           X/2           X*5
Great          X/2           X*5
Big            X/3           X*3
Fair           X/3           X*3
Mediocre       X/3           X*3
Small          X/3           X*3
Very small     X/3           X*2
Tiny           X/10          Not Possible

So, a new table of relative Military sizes:

Country		 Small   Medio.     Fair       Big	Great
-----------	------   ------   --------   -------   -------
Kaeir		 4,500	 13,500	   40,500    121,500   364,500
Mir		 4,300	 13,000	   39,000    117,000   351,000
Rhudyn/Tana	 3,000	  9,000	   27,000     81,000   243,000
Sedonia	       	13,300	 40,000   120,000    360,000 1,080,000
Tanimbar         3,000	  9,000	   27,000     81,000   243,000
Zelkor		 1,760	  5,280	   15,850     47,550   142,650

Attempting to raise forces of Big or greater gives a Society a -1 per 
size level per year penalty to its Exploitation determinant.

Andrew

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Iso88591Qibrahim
=?iso-8859-1?q?i?=

Tue

Oct 18
2005

15:13Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

Hmmm..... According to this Kaeir has a Small force (which would match my figure of 4600).  I think there is an inbuilt limitation on a Kaeirean standing force being too large as many able bodied men serve in the merchant marine.
 
The Provisional forces number 30,000 currently.
 
I suspect once the current matters settle down in the northern Midsea, Kaeir will witness a renewed call for the expansion of the land forces, especially as all the land forces are tied down protecting borders or newly acquired territory with the exception of the Tirmaeiri Rangers (northern Tirmaeir between Saltrim and New Tirmaeir lacking a border with a foreign country).
 
The recent use of volunteers from the Guard for a private religious action as the Paladins of the Tower might see the development of a more mundane armed wing of the Millati church (in addition to the sorcerous wing of the church, the Brotherhood of the Night).
 
Having said that, mere size and training do not always determine force and ability to succeed.  I suspect that in the current Zelkori campaign, the Zelkori have an advantage that the Sedonians don't have - desperation.  Even they we're in a pre-nationalist period, popular despair over the loss of imagined (given that Qaiyore is not democratic) freedoms will drive many Zelkori soldiers to fight even more determinedly than Sedonians (who would be driven by love of country and the crown etc as well, but might be slightly less driven as its more of a job).  Perhaps if the Zelkori Prince had assassinated the entire Imperial Family, then the Sedonian Legions would have an equivalent passion.  
 
>From the Kaeirean perspective, the result of the Zelkori War is probably a foregone conclusion, though a very and unnecessarily bloody one paid at a very high price.  Regardless, the Kaeireans are more interested in the resumption of trade in the Zelkori port than who wins.
 
 
Ibrahim

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
I think I'm finally starting to get a grip on the Combat in IH table: 
Military sizes such as Fair, Great, or Small are not absolutes, but are 
measured relative to the Size/Scope of the Society the military force 
belongs to--it's the only way I can get 
http://users.tkk.fi/~vesanto/ihfudge/military.html to make sense.

Size Population Military% Nominal Standing# Provisional#
----- ---------- --------- -------- --------- ------------
Vast >500 mil 0.1% >500'000 >200'000 >2 mil
Huge 500 mil 0.1% 500'000 200'000 2 mil
Great 200 mil 0.1% 200'000 100'000 500'000
Big 20 mil 0.5% 100'000 30'000 200'000
Fair 2 mil 1.5% 30'000 10'000 100'000
Mediocre 200'000 5% 10'000 3'000 30'000
Small 20'000 15% 3'000 1'000 10'000
Very small 2'000 50% 1'000 300 2'000
Tiny 200 100% 200 20 200

A force of size Fair = Nation's population * Military%.

So for the major players:

Country 1458 Pop. Military% Force Size of Fair
----------- --------- --------- ------------------
Kaeir 810,000 5% 40,500
Mir 2,600,000 1.5% 39,000
Rhudyn/Tana* 1,800,000 1.5% 27,000
Sedonia 24,000,000 0.5% 120,000
Tanimbar* 1,800,000 1.5% 27,000
Zelkor 317,000 5% 15,850

I used 1.5% for Rhudyn/Tana and Tanimbar because 1.8 million is closer 
to 2 million than it is to 200,000.

To find other sizes, use this table, where X=Size of Fair:

Nation
Size Step Down Step Up
------ --------- -------
Vast X/2 X*5
Huge X/2 X*5
Great X/2 X*5
Big X/3 X*3
Fair X/3 X*3
Mediocre X/3 X*3
Small X/3 X*3
Very small X/3 X*2
Tiny X/10 Not Possible

So, a new table of relative Military sizes:

Country Small Medio. Fair Big Great
----------- ------ ------ -------- ------- -------
Kaeir 4,500 13,500 40,500 121,500 364,500
Mir 4,300 13,000 39,000 117,000 351,000
Rhudyn/Tana 3,000 9,000 27,000 81,000 243,000
Sedonia 13,300 40,000 120,000 360,000 1,080,000
Tanimbar 3,000 9,000 27,000 81,000 243,000
Zelkor 1,760 5,280 15,850 47,550 142,650

Attempting to raise forces of Big or greater gives a Society a -1 per 
size level per year penalty to its Exploitation determinant.

Andrew

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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Tue

Oct 18
2005

21:21Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

i wrote:
> Hmmm..... According to this Kaeir has a Small force (which would match my figure of 4600).  I think there is an inbuilt limitation on a Kaeirean standing force being too large as many able bodied men serve in the merchant marine.
>  
> The Provisional forces number 30,000 currently.
>  
> I suspect once the current matters settle down in the northern Midsea, Kaeir will witness a renewed call for the expansion of the land forces, especially as all the land forces are tied down protecting borders or newly acquired territory with the exception of the Tirmaeiri Rangers (northern Tirmaeir between Saltrim and New Tirmaeir lacking a border with a foreign country).
>  
> The recent use of volunteers from the Guard for a private religious action as the Paladins of the Tower might see the development of a more mundane armed wing of the Millati church (in addition to the sorcerous wing of the church, the Brotherhood of the Night).
>  
> Having said that, mere size and training do not always determine force and ability to succeed.  I suspect that in the current Zelkori campaign, the Zelkori have an advantage that the Sedonians don't have - desperation.  Even they we're in a pre-nationalist period, popular despair over the loss of imagined (given that Qaiyore is not democratic) freedoms will drive many Zelkori soldiers to fight even more determinedly than Sedonians (who would be driven by love of country and the crown etc as well, but might be slightly less driven as its more of a job).  Perhaps if the Zelkori Prince had assassinated the entire Imperial Family, then the Sedonian Legions would have an equivalent passion.  

Don't give him any bright ideas! :)

Seriously, given what happened the *last* time a MidSea nation 
'attacked' the Sedonian imperial family . . . . there are more pleasant 
ways of committing suicide. Just ask King Villard of Burcancy and his 
family--if you can find a good medium.

Of course, the situation is different now, but attacking the Sedonian 
imperials would be a truly stupid thing to do.

>>>From the Kaeirean perspective, the result of the Zelkori War is probably a foregone conclusion, though a very and unnecessarily bloody one paid at a very high price.  Regardless, the Kaeireans are more interested in the resumption of trade in the Zelkori port than who wins.

It comes down to: how badly does Sedonia want to control Zelkor? This 
year's action results might affect the outcome of next year's general 
election and the future course of the war.

Andrew

>  
> Ibrahim
> 
> Andrew Janssen  wrote:
> I think I'm finally starting to get a grip on the Combat in IH table: 
> Military sizes such as Fair, Great, or Small are not absolutes, but are 
> measured relative to the Size/Scope of the Society the military force 
> belongs to--it's the only way I can get 
> http://users.tkk.fi/~vesanto/ihfudge/military.html to make sense.
> 
> Size Population Military% Nominal Standing# Provisional#
> ----- ---------- --------- -------- --------- ------------
> Vast >500 mil 0.1% >500'000 >200'000 >2 mil
> Huge 500 mil 0.1% 500'000 200'000 2 mil
> Great 200 mil 0.1% 200'000 100'000 500'000
> Big 20 mil 0.5% 100'000 30'000 200'000
> Fair 2 mil 1.5% 30'000 10'000 100'000
> Mediocre 200'000 5% 10'000 3'000 30'000
> Small 20'000 15% 3'000 1'000 10'000
> Very small 2'000 50% 1'000 300 2'000
> Tiny 200 100% 200 20 200
> 
> A force of size Fair = Nation's population * Military%.
> 
> So for the major players:
> 
> Country 1458 Pop. Military% Force Size of Fair
> ----------- --------- --------- ------------------
> Kaeir 810,000 5% 40,500
> Mir 2,600,000 1.5% 39,000
> Rhudyn/Tana* 1,800,000 1.5% 27,000
> Sedonia 24,000,000 0.5% 120,000
> Tanimbar* 1,800,000 1.5% 27,000
> Zelkor 317,000 5% 15,850
> 
> I used 1.5% for Rhudyn/Tana and Tanimbar because 1.8 million is closer 
> to 2 million than it is to 200,000.
> 
> To find other sizes, use this table, where X=Size of Fair:
> 
> Nation
> Size Step Down Step Up
> ------ --------- -------
> Vast X/2 X*5
> Huge X/2 X*5
> Great X/2 X*5
> Big X/3 X*3
> Fair X/3 X*3
> Mediocre X/3 X*3
> Small X/3 X*3
> Very small X/3 X*2
> Tiny X/10 Not Possible
> 
> So, a new table of relative Military sizes:
> 
> Country Small Medio. Fair Big Great
> ----------- ------ ------ -------- ------- -------
> Kaeir 4,500 13,500 40,500 121,500 364,500
> Mir 4,300 13,000 39,000 117,000 351,000
> Rhudyn/Tana 3,000 9,000 27,000 81,000 243,000
> Sedonia 13,300 40,000 120,000 360,000 1,080,000
> Tanimbar 3,000 9,000 27,000 81,000 243,000
> Zelkor 1,760 5,280 15,850 47,550 142,650
> 
> Attempting to raise forces of Big or greater gives a Society a -1 per 
> size level per year penalty to its Exploitation determinant.
> 
> Andrew
> 
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> 
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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sat

Oct 22
2005

08:13Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

I'm trying to work out some sort of equation, such that you can plug 
your population number into it and get your nominal army size out. 
Unfortunately for me, the military% changes nonlinearly, and it's been 
seven years since I took calculus. I can tell from plotting the existing 
points that any such equation would involve exponential functions, but 
like I said, my math is really rusty.

Anyone out there with decent math skills? I can probably figure it out 
if I bang my head against it often enough, but I'd like to spare myself 
as much pain as possible.

Andrew

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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sun

Oct 23
2005

03:11Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

Thank goodness for the internet! I found a website that does all the 
nasty calculation of exponential regression for me. Army sizes in 
Celandra can be approximately calculated using the formula:

y = 16.2645x^0.518867

or, if you're in a hurry and just want a quick'n'dirty number,

y = 16 * squareroot(x)

where x is the population of the country and y is the nominal army size. 
The equation doesn't *quite* fit for x > 200,000,000 or so, but for most 
  MidSea countries, it should work adequately.

Andrew

Andrew Janssen wrote:
> I'm trying to work out some sort of equation, such that you can plug 
> your population number into it and get your nominal army size out. 
> Unfortunately for me, the military% changes nonlinearly, and it's been 
> seven years since I took calculus. I can tell from plotting the existing 
> points that any such equation would involve exponential functions, but 
> like I said, my math is really rusty.
> 
> Anyone out there with decent math skills? I can probably figure it out 
> if I bang my head against it often enough, but I'd like to spare myself 
> as much pain as possible.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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> 

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Iso88591Qibrahim
=?iso-8859-1?q?i?=

Sun

Oct 23
2005

03:19Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

Nice, Andrew.  Excellent work.  Its always good when someone else does 
the dirty work to make things easier for everyone : )

Ibrahim

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>Thank goodness for the internet! I found a website that does all the 
>nasty calculation of exponential regression for me. Army sizes in 
>Celandra can be approximately calculated using the formula:
>
>y = 16.2645x^0.518867
>
>or, if you're in a hurry and just want a quick'n'dirty number,
>
>y = 16 * squareroot(x)
>
>where x is the population of the country and y is the nominal army size. 
>The equation doesn't *quite* fit for x > 200,000,000 or so, but for most 
>  MidSea countries, it should work adequately.
>
>Andrew
>
>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>  
>
>>I'm trying to work out some sort of equation, such that you can plug 
>>your population number into it and get your nominal army size out. 
>>Unfortunately for me, the military% changes nonlinearly, and it's been 
>>seven years since I took calculus. I can tell from plotting the existing 
>>points that any such equation would involve exponential functions, but 
>>like I said, my math is really rusty.
>>
>>Anyone out there with decent math skills? I can probably figure it out 
>>if I bang my head against it often enough, but I'd like to spare myself 
>>as much pain as possible.
>>
>>Andrew
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
>  
>

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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sun

Oct 23
2005

04:31Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

Yes, it is, isn't it? : )

As a correction, the first formula should be (if I can get Mozilla to 
format it properly:

y = 16.2645x^0.^518867

Andrew


ibrahim wrote:
> Nice, Andrew.  Excellent work.  Its always good when someone else does 
> the dirty work to make things easier for everyone : )
> 
> Ibrahim
> 
> Andrew Janssen wrote:
> 
> 
>>Thank goodness for the internet! I found a website that does all the 
>>nasty calculation of exponential regression for me. Army sizes in 
>>Celandra can be approximately calculated using the formula:
>>
>>y = 16.2645x^0.518867
>>
>>or, if you're in a hurry and just want a quick'n'dirty number,
>>
>>y = 16 * squareroot(x)
>>
>>where x is the population of the country and y is the nominal army size. 
>>The equation doesn't *quite* fit for x > 200,000,000 or so, but for most 
>> MidSea countries, it should work adequately.
>>
>>Andrew
>>
>>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>> 
>>
>>
>>>I'm trying to work out some sort of equation, such that you can plug 
>>>your population number into it and get your nominal army size out. 
>>>Unfortunately for me, the military% changes nonlinearly, and it's been 
>>>seven years since I took calculus. I can tell from plotting the existing 
>>>points that any such equation would involve exponential functions, but 
>>>like I said, my math is really rusty.
>>>
>>>Anyone out there with decent math skills? I can probably figure it out 
>>>if I bang my head against it often enough, but I'd like to spare myself 
>>>as much pain as possible.
>>>
>>>Andrew
>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
> 
> 
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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sun

Oct 23
2005

04:40Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

I guess Mozilla won't cooperate--but I figure you all know what I meant, 
yeah?

Andrew

Andrew Janssen wrote:

> Yes, it is, isn't it? : )
> 
> As a correction, the first formula should be (if I can get Mozilla to 
> format it properly:
> 
> y = 16.2645x^0.^518867
> 
> Andrew

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Iso88591Qibrahim
=?iso-8859-1?q?i?=

Sun

Oct 23
2005

06:56Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

As someone almost completely mathematically illiterate (well, if i hit 
my head against a wall until it sinks in, i can get it, but its 
agonising), here's what the simplified equation produced for me given 
the Kaeirean islands population of 124000, the Kaeirean Tirmaeir 
population of 510000, and a guesstimate population of Saltrim as 480120 
= 1,114,120.

16*SQRT(1114120.176) = 16888.3

I'd also throw in a 10% reduction on Kaeirean forces, due to the amount 
of suitable manpower that is needed for the merchant marine (Kaeirean 
ships are though, obligated to carry arms at all times and be 
convertible to warships, and in times of war are obligated to serve in 
the Home Fleet), at the expense of the military.  Which would make a 
nominal total of 15200.

If this is the case, I can see the Office of the Inquisitor, the 
Colonial Office, the Kaeiran military and conservative lords agitating 
for an expansion of land and sea forces in the near future.

Any comments?

Ibrahim

Andrew Janssen wrote:

>Thank goodness for the internet! I found a website that does all the 
>nasty calculation of exponential regression for me. Army sizes in 
>Celandra can be approximately calculated using the formula:
>
>y = 16.2645x^0.518867
>
>or, if you're in a hurry and just want a quick'n'dirty number,
>
>y = 16 * squareroot(x)
>
>where x is the population of the country and y is the nominal army size. 
>The equation doesn't *quite* fit for x > 200,000,000 or so, but for most 
>  MidSea countries, it should work adequately.
>
>Andrew
>
>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>  
>
>>I'm trying to work out some sort of equation, such that you can plug 
>>your population number into it and get your nominal army size out. 
>>Unfortunately for me, the military% changes nonlinearly, and it's been 
>>seven years since I took calculus. I can tell from plotting the existing 
>>points that any such equation would involve exponential functions, but 
>>like I said, my math is really rusty.
>>
>>Anyone out there with decent math skills? I can probably figure it out 
>>if I bang my head against it often enough, but I'd like to spare myself 
>>as much pain as possible.
>>
>>Andrew
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>
>
>
>  
>

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AndrewJanssen
Andrew Janssen

Sun

Oct 23
2005

07:27Z

[Cel] [World] Military Strength tables

ibrahim wrote:

> As someone almost completely mathematically illiterate (well, if i hit 
> my head against a wall until it sinks in, i can get it, but its 
> agonising), here's what the simplified equation produced for me given 
> the Kaeirean islands population of 124000, the Kaeirean Tirmaeir 
> population of 510000, and a guesstimate population of Saltrim as 480120 
> = 1,114,120.
> 
> 16*SQRT(1114120.176) = 16888.3
> 
> I'd also throw in a 10% reduction on Kaeirean forces, due to the amount 
> of suitable manpower that is needed for the merchant marine (Kaeirean 
> ships are though, obligated to carry arms at all times and be 
> convertible to warships, and in times of war are obligated to serve in 
> the Home Fleet), at the expense of the military.  Which would make a 
> nominal total of 15200.
> 
> If this is the case, I can see the Office of the Inquisitor, the 
> Colonial Office, the Kaeiran military and conservative lords agitating 
> for an expansion of land and sea forces in the near future.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Ibrahim

No, not really. The equation will give numbers that will never *quite* 
match those given by the table, so if your population is close to one of 
the 'benchmarks' (200, 2000, 20000, etc), you should still use the 
table. However, if your population falls into the gaps, if it's between 
200,000 and 2,000,000, or between 2,000,000 and 20,000,000, using the 
equation will probably give you a better number than going by the table.

15,200 seems reasonable for the expanded Kaeir to me.

Andrew

> Andrew Janssen wrote:
> 
> 
>>Thank goodness for the internet! I found a website that does all the 
>>nasty calculation of exponential regression for me. Army sizes in 
>>Celandra can be approximately calculated using the formula:
>>
>>y = 16.2645x^0.518867
>>
>>or, if you're in a hurry and just want a quick'n'dirty number,
>>
>>y = 16 * squareroot(x)
>>
>>where x is the population of the country and y is the nominal army size. 
>>The equation doesn't *quite* fit for x > 200,000,000 or so, but for most 
>> MidSea countries, it should work adequately.
>>
>>Andrew
>>
>>Andrew Janssen wrote:
>> 
>>
>>
>>>I'm trying to work out some sort of equation, such that you can plug 
>>>your population number into it and get your nominal army size out. 
>>>Unfortunately for me, the military% changes nonlinearly, and it's been 
>>>seven years since I took calculus. I can tell from plotting the existing 
>>>points that any such equation would involve exponential functions, but 
>>>like I said, my math is really rusty.
>>>
>>>Anyone out there with decent math skills? I can probably figure it out 
>>>if I bang my head against it often enough, but I'd like to spare myself 
>>>as much pain as possible.
>>>
>>>Andrew
>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, send mail to celandra-off@phoenyx.net.
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
> 
> 
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