[Cel] Population adjustments - Taltheran

Hi guys,

Assuming everything in post-conquest Taltheran settles down nicely, I 
guess we should review the Taltherani population figures, and how the 
division of Taltheran affects Mirrish, Sedonian and Kaeiraen populations.

The page lists 1.2 million for Taltheran.  I'm not too good with land 
mass from maps, though.

 From what I understand, the upper Tal river valley was far less 
populated than the Tal basin.  The Tal basin though would be able to 
support a larger population than the more hilly and forested Saltrim 
region.  A minor counterbalance to this though would be the influx of 
refugees to Saltrim from the rest of Taltheran.

Additionally, what would the populations of Tal, Pran, Coryn and Saltrim 
be?  Coryn would be the smallest, followed by Pran or the ancient city 
Saltrim, with Tal being the largest understandably.  However, all their 
populations may have decreased for the long-term due to the earlier 
civil war, and temporarily due to uncertainties over the partition of 
Taltheran.

Corryn though I assume is slightly less temperate than the Tal river 
region, and therefore would support a lower population.

As little fighting took place, population loss from war would be 
minimal.  Though, is the 1.2 million figure post-civil war?

Thoughts?

Ibrahim Underwood

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[Cel] Population adjustments - Taltheran

The 1.2 million is pre-war population. Jeff's table for 1458 gives 
Taltheran's post civil war population as 750,000. See 
http://www.phoenyx.net/twiki/bin/view/Celandra/PopulationIn1458

I've added a link to it under Player Contributions--for some reason, it 
was hidden under Files.

At a guess, Mir, Sedonia, and Kaeir ended up with roughly equal 
Taltherani populations.

Andrew

ibrahim wrote:

> Hi guys,
> 
> Assuming everything in post-conquest Taltheran settles down nicely, I 
> guess we should review the Taltherani population figures, and how the 
> division of Taltheran affects Mirrish, Sedonian and Kaeiraen populations.
> 
> The page lists 1.2 million for Taltheran.  I'm not too good with land 
> mass from maps, though.
> 
>  From what I understand, the upper Tal river valley was far less 
> populated than the Tal basin.  The Tal basin though would be able to 
> support a larger population than the more hilly and forested Saltrim 
> region.  A minor counterbalance to this though would be the influx of 
> refugees to Saltrim from the rest of Taltheran.
> 
> Additionally, what would the populations of Tal, Pran, Coryn and Saltrim 
> be?  Coryn would be the smallest, followed by Pran or the ancient city 
> Saltrim, with Tal being the largest understandably.  However, all their 
> populations may have decreased for the long-term due to the earlier 
> civil war, and temporarily due to uncertainties over the partition of 
> Taltheran.
> 
> Corryn though I assume is slightly less temperate than the Tal river 
> region, and therefore would support a lower population.
> 
> As little fighting took place, population loss from war would be 
> minimal.  Though, is the 1.2 million figure post-civil war?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Ibrahim Underwood
> 
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[Cel] Population

I have been looking at the population charts in preprations for there next update, and had some questions.  I also some of the things I will be doing.
   
  Also I don't know all the math equasions that were used.  (I am a historian not a mathmatician.)  So I will need a lot of help on that.
   
  Taltheran
  Popualtion: I beleave we desided to just divided the population up into thirds.  Which comes out to 250,000.  Correct.
  Land:   Would someone be able to look at the new territories, and figure out the sq/ml so that I can add them to the prostective contries.
  Labeling: I am planning on adding Tal to the Yora'Timar section since it has been added to that principality.  Andrew how would you like me to add it to Sedonia?  Ibrahim? Would you like a seperate section for it or add it another exiciting section or its own seperate section?
   
  Zelkor
  Population:  50,000 to sedonia 210,000 fleed.
  Land: No issue
  Labeling:  Andrew how do you want it labeled?
   
  Anaduan
  Population:  Will added Zelkors population as appropriate depending on Ethans actions, the success of his actions.
  Land: No change, unless Ethan invades something.
  Labeling: Ethan do you want me to label the Zelkor part seperately?  I personally think just puting them in with the normal numbers.
   
  Aixelsydan
  Population: Should I encluded a goblin population?
  Land: If the goblins hold land should it be included?
  Labeling: if we have goblins they will be labeled.
   
  Rhudyn
  Population:  Chad I keep looking at the current number and thinking that we made that larger.
  Land: nothing
  Labeling: I am takeing Rhudyn off the free cities section and labeling it as a seperate power since it has become one.  Also I am of the oppion that we should, for now, label Tana under Rhudyn, but like Yora'Timar label it seperate from heartland Rhudyn.  What do you think?
   
  Jabua/Milakanur
  Population: Did we included the population of Jabua city into the Milakanur population.  Also what is the Jabua population based on.
  Land:
  Labeling:  I agree that we label the protectorate seperate, but the city should either be included into Milakanur states or listen under Milakanur like Yora'Timar
   
  Corryn:
  Population:  We need to work on that.
  Land: We need to work on that.
  Labeling:  Will be labeled seperate from Mir and Kaeir
   
  Okay.  About what would be the standered increase by 1468 for each country.  I beleave some one had an equasion for this.  i could be wrong though.
   
  Significant countries that increase. (so far.  Will not be final until 1468)
  Anaduan (Zelkor refuguees, potentially could affect other free cities.)
  Rhudyn (Goblin battles in Aixelsydan/ merging with Tana)
   
  Significant decrease
  Aixelsydan (goblins, this may also depend on how long.)
  Tanimbar goblins
  Morvali (Protectorate of Corryn)
   
  any suggestions
   
  Jason Heaps

		
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[Cel] Population

Jason Heaps wrote:
> I have been looking at the population charts in preprations for there next update, and had some questions.  I also some of the things I will be doing.
>    
>   Also I don't know all the math equasions that were used.  (I am a historian not a mathmatician.)  So I will need a lot of help on that.
>    
>   Taltheran
>   Popualtion: I beleave we desided to just divided the population up into thirds.  Which comes out to 250,000.  Correct.
>   Land:   Would someone be able to look at the new territories, and figure out the sq/ml so that I can add them to the prostective contries.
>   Labeling: I am planning on adding Tal to the Yora'Timar section since it has been added to that principality.  Andrew how would you like me to add it to Sedonia?  Ibrahim? Would you like a seperate section for it or add it another exiciting section or its own seperate section?

Population was roughly by thirds--Sedonia's portion of Taltheran, 
including Pran, should be added to the total figures for Sedonia. 
Administratively, it's part of Sedonian Tirmar.

I can figure out the areas this weekend and get back to you.

>   Zelkor
>   Population:  50,000 to sedonia 210,000 fleed.
>   Land: No issue
>   Labeling:  Andrew how do you want it labeled?

The Sedonians are absorbing Zelkor into Vizinia.

>   Anaduan
>   Population:  Will added Zelkors population as appropriate depending on Ethans actions, the success of his actions.
>   Land: No change, unless Ethan invades something.
>   Labeling: Ethan do you want me to label the Zelkor part seperately?  I personally think just puting them in with the normal numbers.

A certain portion of the Zelkori refugees would have stayed in Tanimbar, 
wouldn't they? Maybe becoming an ethnic minority.

>   Aixelsydan
>   Population: Should I encluded a goblin population?
>   Land: If the goblins hold land should it be included?
>   Labeling: if we have goblins they will be labeled.
>    
>   Rhudyn
>   Population:  Chad I keep looking at the current number and thinking that we made that larger.
>   Land: nothing
>   Labeling: I am takeing Rhudyn off the free cities section and labeling it as a seperate power since it has become one.  Also I am of the oppion that we should, for now, label Tana under Rhudyn, but like Yora'Timar label it seperate from heartland Rhudyn.  What do you think?
>    
>   Jabua/Milakanur
>   Population: Did we included the population of Jabua city into the Milakanur population.  Also what is the Jabua population based on.
>   Land:
>   Labeling:  I agree that we label the protectorate seperate, but the city should either be included into Milakanur states or listen under Milakanur like Yora'Timar
>    
>   Corryn:
>   Population:  We need to work on that.
>   Land: We need to work on that.
>   Labeling:  Will be labeled seperate from Mir and Kaeir
>    
>   Okay.  About what would be the standered increase by 1468 for each country.  I beleave some one had an equasion for this.  i could be wrong though.

To be honest, Jefferson was the one who was really into the mathematics 
of expanding populations. I have a few spreadsheets, but you really 
can't just apply one percentage to all the populations and be done with it.

>   Significant countries that increase. (so far.  Will not be final until 1468)
>   Anaduan (Zelkor refuguees, potentially could affect other free cities.)

Like I said, at least some of the Zelkori probably decided to stay in 
Tanimbar.

Andrew

>   Rhudyn (Goblin battles in Aixelsydan/ merging with Tana)
>    
>   Significant decrease
>   Aixelsydan (goblins, this may also depend on how long.)
>   Tanimbar goblins
>   Morvali (Protectorate of Corryn)
>    
>   any suggestions
>    
>   Jason Heaps
> 
> 		
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[Cel] Population

Though Saltrim City is technically a Kaeirean Protectorate, in reality Saltrim City is part of the Dominion of Saltrim, one of the four Dominions that make up the Republic of Kaeir (Celtehar, Celtalath, Tirmaeir and Saltrim).  The Pro-Consul of Saltrim, and the Magister-Resident of Saltrim City, are both in fact the same person.
   
  So both can be added to the Kaeirean section.

  Goblins - since the Goblins are not part of Aixelsydan, they should be shown separately in figures and land, I think.
   
  Jabau - the population on the phoenyx page I find in a really old posting from way back at the beginning of the game, the first milakanur player i believe.  I took that and resurrected it.
   
  I'd prefer the Jabau Port Protectorate to be listed in a similiar fashion to Yora'Timar.
   
  Ibrahim
  
Jason Heaps  wrote:
    Taltheran
Popualtion: I beleave we desided to just divided the population up into thirds. Which comes out to 250,000. Correct.
Land: Would someone be able to look at the new territories, and figure out the sq/ml so that I can add them to the prostective contries.
Labeling: I am planning on adding Tal to the Yora'Timar section since it has been added to that principality. Andrew how would you like me to add it to Sedonia? Ibrahim? Would you like a seperate section for it or add it another exiciting section or its own seperate section?
   
  

Aixelsydan
Population: Should I encluded a goblin population?
Land: If the goblins hold land should it be included?
Labeling: if we have goblins they will be labeled.

Jabua/Milakanur
Population: Did we included the population of Jabua city into the Milakanur population. Also what is the Jabua population based on.
Land:
Labeling: I agree that we label the protectorate seperate, but the city should either be included into Milakanur states or listen under Milakanur like Yora'Timar

Corryn:
Population: We need to work on that.
Land: We need to work on that.
Labeling: Will be labeled seperate from Mir and Kaeir

Significant countries that increase. (so far. Will not be final until 1468)
Anaduan (Zelkor refuguees, potentially could affect other free cities.)
Rhudyn (Goblin battles in Aixelsydan/ merging with Tana)

Significant decrease
Aixelsydan (goblins, this may also depend on how long.)
Tanimbar goblins
Morvali (Protectorate of Corryn)

any suggestions

Jason Heaps


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[Cel] Population

So, I was going through the files section on the site,
and I ran into the
PopulationTables.html.  That is the old population
calculation, and in it,
Celpalar had a population of over 4 million.  I would
like to know why in
the next one it was reduced to under one million. 
Does anybody have a
reasonable explanation for this?  Conversely, (and I'm
not meaning to just
pick on you Ibrahim) Kaeir went from 96,000 to over
600,000 in the same two
tables.  What happened to change the two populations
so drastically?

Kevin




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[Cel] Population

There was something of a huge tidal wave I believe, but I think that
only affected Celpalar and the east coast.. Not sure if that could have
such a huge impact though..

-Mark.

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] Namens Kevin
Bourne
Verzonden: woensdag 13 september 2006 17:23
Aan: celandra@phoenyx.net
Onderwerp: [Cel] Population


So, I was going through the files section on the site,
and I ran into the
PopulationTables.html.  That is the old population
calculation, and in it,
Celpalar had a population of over 4 million.  I would
like to know why in
the next one it was reduced to under one million. 
Does anybody have a
reasonable explanation for this?  Conversely, (and I'm
not meaning to just
pick on you Ibrahim) Kaeir went from 96,000 to over
600,000 in the same two
tables.  What happened to change the two populations
so drastically?

Kevin




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[Cel] Population

The tidal wave sank a small chain of islands.  And destroyed cities on the east coast of Elyria the northern content.  It was really ugle wave.  I am sure thats not the reasons for the population drop.  I think the 4 million was a top but when looked over celpalars history we lowered it accordingly/that chart was not the officals numbers it was a draft.   as for Keair I am not sure as to there jump.  One of them might have been from the annexation of saltrim and countryside.
   
  Jason

Mark  wrote:
  There was something of a huge tidal wave I believe, but I think that
only affected Celpalar and the east coast.. Not sure if that could have
such a huge impact though..

-Mark.

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net] Namens Kevin
Bourne
Verzonden: woensdag 13 september 2006 17:23
Aan: celandra@phoenyx.net
Onderwerp: [Cel] Population


So, I was going through the files section on the site,
and I ran into the
PopulationTables.html. That is the old population
calculation, and in it,
Celpalar had a population of over 4 million. I would
like to know why in
the next one it was reduced to under one million. 
Does anybody have a
reasonable explanation for this? Conversely, (and I'm
not meaning to just
pick on you Ibrahim) Kaeir went from 96,000 to over
600,000 in the same two
tables. What happened to change the two populations
so drastically?

Kevin




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[Cel] Population

The most current and correct population numbers are in the Population in 1458 table, which, being at work, I'm not in a position to link to.
 
About a year, maybe two, ago, I brought up the point about how the population numbers on the old Qaiyore site hosted on Tripod often had no basis in reality, being just pulled out of the air. My first step to correct this was to calculate the land areas of the major societies, and then use data on medieval demographics to figure out appropriate population densities and then populations. There should be a big discussion of the whole process in the archives. Jeff Wilson helped a lot.
 
Anyway, I don't specifically recall what caused the drop in Celpalar's population, but at a guess it was either due to a change in the process of calculating population, or it was connected to the events that ended the Sinari War--IIRC, there were major earthquakes all across Qaiyore, which resulted in the southwestern 'tail' of the continent and the northeastern portion of the Isle of Golaren sinking abruptly into the sea. Celpalar may have lost population from that.
 
As for Kaeir, IIRC the increase in population was partly due to its increase in territory. First they acquired  a chunk of Taltherani Tirmar, and then they participated in the partition of Tirmar, along with Mir and Sedonia.
 
Andrew

----- Original Message ----
From: Kevin Bourne 
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:22:49 AM
Subject: [Cel] Population


So, I was going through the files section on the site,
and I ran into the
PopulationTables.html.  That is the old population
calculation, and in it,
Celpalar had a population of over 4 million.  I would
like to know why in
the next one it was reduced to under one million. 
Does anybody have a
reasonable explanation for this?  Conversely, (and I'm
not meaning to just
pick on you Ibrahim) Kaeir went from 96,000 to over
600,000 in the same two
tables.  What happened to change the two populations
so drastically?

Kevin




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[Cel] Population

Arrrgh, that should be the partition of *Taltheran*. I need to get more sleep . . .
 
Andrew

----- Original Message ----
From: Andrew Janssen 
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:53:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Cel] Population

 

 
As for Kaeir, IIRC the increase in population was partly due to its increase in territory. First they acquired  a chunk of Taltherani Tirmar, and then they participated in the partition of Tirmar, along with Mir and Sedonia.

Andrew
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[Cel] Population

where is the link at?

On 9/13/06, Kevin Bourne  wrote:
>
> So, I was going through the files section on the site,
> and I ran into the
> PopulationTables.html.  That is the old population
> calculation, and in it,
> Celpalar had a population of over 4 million.  I would
> like to know why in
> the next one it was reduced to under one million.
> Does anybody have a
> reasonable explanation for this?  Conversely, (and I'm
> not meaning to just
> pick on you Ibrahim) Kaeir went from 96,000 to over
> 600,000 in the same two
> tables.  What happened to change the two populations
> so drastically?
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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[Cel] Population

Under player contributions on the main page


-----Original Message-----
From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net]
On Behalf Of Anaduan
- Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:01 AM
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Subject: Re: [Cel] Population

where is the link at?

On 9/13/06, Kevin Bourne 
wrote:
>
> So, I was going through the files section on the
site,
> and I ran into the
> PopulationTables.html.  That is the old population
> calculation, and in it,
> Celpalar had a population of over 4 million.  I
would
> like to know why in
> the next one it was reduced to under one million.
> Does anybody have a
> reasonable explanation for this?  Conversely, (and
I'm
> not meaning to just
> pick on you Ibrahim) Kaeir went from 96,000 to over
> 600,000 in the same two
> tables.  What happened to change the two populations
> so drastically?
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
protection around
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>
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[Cel] Population

Sorry, it's also found under the files slink on the
main page




-----Original Message-----
From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net]
On Behalf Of Andrew
Janssen
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:04 AM
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Subject: Re: [Cel] Population

Arrrgh, that should be the partition of *Taltheran*. I
need to get more
sleep . . .
 
Andrew

----- Original Message ----
From: Andrew Janssen 
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:53:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Cel] Population

 

 
As for Kaeir, IIRC the increase in population was
partly due to its increase
in territory. First they acquired  a chunk of
Taltherani Tirmar, and then
they participated in the partition of Tirmar, along
with Mir and Sedonia.

Andrew
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[Cel] Population

I don't think that disease would play as big a factor
on Celpalar as it
might on other societies.  If they have advanced
enough to use the
surrounding materials (from Golaren and probably from
Celpalar island) as
pharmaceuticals and as alchemical products, then I
think they would have
learned to apply that to their own lives before
shipping it all over the
place.  Also, they have an alliance with the nation
that lives on Golaren.
The people that live there have also probably learned
how to cope with
living in the "jungle" without succumbing to its
dangers.  I think that they
would have shared some of their remedies with their
allies.

Kevin


-----Original Message-----
From: bounces@phoenyx.net [mailto:bounces@phoenyx.net]
On Behalf Of Ibrahim
Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:46 PM
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Subject: Re: [Cel] FW: Population

For a definitive reading on the role of disease and
parasites in affecting
human population, I suggest William H. McNeill's
"Plagues and Peoples".  A
fascinating and academic reading on the symbiosis
between viruses and
humans.

One should remember that India and Indonesia, for
example, did not have
massive population growth until after colonisation,
and only in the last
century really..... when the full impact of modern
medicine removed the
final impediment to a population explosion (malaria
and all those tropical
lovelies).

For thousands of years, southern China had the same
problem, and the
expansion of the Chinese State into southern China
initially took a long
time, as northerners were not used to life in tropical
southern China.

Which makes me ask... where would be the "malaria
lines" in Qaiyore?  Is
that map showing Qaiyore in spherical perspective
still around?

Further to all this, the increased trade between
Qaiyore and Celpalar would
probably mean that tropical diseases that the Celpali
have gotten used to
would more easily be transferred to visiting
Qaiyoreans (here (gulp) I think
of Kaeir).

Ibrahim

Andrew Janssen  wrote:
Speaking as the map
maintainer, Celpalar is definitely tropical--possibly
even equatorial--with
all that a tropical climate implies.
 
Andrew

----- Original Message ----
From: Ibrahim Underwood 
To: celandra@phoenyx.net
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 4:03:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Cel] FW: Population


Well, I almost got on a soap box to say Celpalar
didn't have as much
developed land as Mir (then checked the map thank god
and realised Celpalar
had even more undeveloped land).

There is a point to be made here, however I would ask
one question
concerning Celpalar?

What is the climate like?

If it is a tropical country, then there will be
population limits built in
by tropical diseases.  Whereas Mir would be a
temperate country.

Ibrahim

chad powell  wrote: Even with all of this I believe he
has some very valid
points when looking 
at the growth of nations, Mir for example.


>The Tidal wave in question wasn't the same as the one
from the destruction 
>of the Avaereans. The one from the Avaereans'
destruction was roughly 
>1500-1800 years ago, I don't remember exactly. The
wave we're talking about

>hit in the 1410s or 1420s.
>
>Anyway, I just went back and checked the website, and
I think I know what 
>happened to Celpalar's population. The first time I
tried to calculate 
>populations, I used very high population densities,
Celpalar's was 
>originally 100 people per square mile. Jeff and I had
a long email dialog, 
>and we eventually agreed that my first take on the
issue had used 
>population densities that were largely too high for
Qaiyore's average tech 
>level. Celpalar's population density was reduced to
15 per square mile.
>
>*None* of the numbers in PopulationTables.html *are
or have ever been* 
>official--that file was a first draft only and its
numbers do not mean 
>anything. The file really should be removed to
prevent confusion--its only 
>value is as a record of the process of arriving at
the official numbers
>
>*Only* Population in 1448 and Population in 1458 are
considered official 
>numbers. Hopefully, if I have the time, I'll work up
a 1468 Population 
>Chart.
>
>Also, looking at the Population tables, Taylor,
Anaduan's 1458 population 
>was 370,000. Did you get the number of 610,000 you
used from adding the 
>Zelkori refugee population?
>
>Andrew


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