Fudge RPG - Fudge vs BESM

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From: JoelArellano

Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:14:44 GMT

Subject: Fudge vs BESM


Issues? I'm curious as to what they are. I, too, have BESM2.


>From: Carl D Cravens 
>Reply-To: fudge@phoenyx.net
>To: fudge@phoenyx.net
>Subject: FUDGE: Fudge vs BESM
>Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:56:57 cst
>
>On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, The White Crow wrote:
>
> > And BESM is perfect for what it does.  It would be one thing to compete
> > against the Fuzion anime games that came before BESM, but BESM...well, 
>you
> > could do anime in Fudge just as well, but I'm not sure how you'd do
> > better.
>
>I *really* got interested in BESM2 recently.  To the point that I was
>almost convinced to abandon Fudge as my primary "universal" system because
>BESM doesn't have to be "anime" and is becoming very popular for
>superheroic roleplaying.  (It tastes like a very simple Champions in a lot
>of ways.)  But after some serious review, I find that it doesn't quite fit
>together.  The rules are somewhat kludgey because they tried to cram every
>power into six levels, resulting in Light Armor (2.5 points of defense per
>level at a cost of 1 point/level) and Heavy Armor (10 points per level at
>a cost of 4 points per level).  They're completely identical in
>per-defense-point costs and the way they work, but they're two completely
>separate "powers" in different (alphabetical) sections of the book.  If
>you want ten points of defense, you take Heavy Armor Level 1.  If you want
>12 points of defense, you take Heavy Armor Level 1 and Light Armor Level
>1.
>
>Own a Big Mecha costs 4 points per level and gets you 20 Mecha Points per
>level.  And if you only want 25 Mecha Points, you buy OBM Level 2 (40
>Mecha Points) and sell back 15 Mecha Points for 3 character points.  That
>is, Mecha Points cost 1 character point per 5 Mecha Points, but they
>kludge it up to make it fit.
>
>But if you want Weapon Attack, it comes in 15-damage-point increments and
>I can't find any place where you can change that.  (When the average
>character has 40 health points, 15 point increments is a lot.  Especially
>when you can buy armor in 2.5 point increments.)
>
>Overall, I'm very impressed with the simple design.  But I'm somewhat
>disappointed in the details of execution.  As someone pointed out earlier,
>a stat of 4 is human average, but they fail an "easy" task on a six or
>greater on 2d6... far more than 50% of the time.  Defense rolls are
>independent of your attacker's skill... dodging a mook's blow and a
>swordmaster's blow are equally easy.  I figured if I can fix all the
>little things that bug me, I might as well fix all the little things that
>bug me about Fudge.  And I can't publish games based on BESM without a
>license. :)
>
>So I've decided to stick with Fudge and use some of the things I've
>learned from BESM to finally complete the superhero supplement I've
>wanted.  BESM helped me focus on what I do and don't want out of a game.
>
>(I still have some minor issues with Fudge, but I think I can resolve
>them now.  Some of my issues have been meta-issues... lack of support and
>popularity, some of us basically playing different games even though we
>all call it Fudge, etc.)
>
>--
>Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                    Fudge List Owner
>     [                     Trim Your Quotes!                     ]
>I *wish* I could remember where I parked my hard disk.
>
>-- -----------------------------------------------
>The Fudge List FAQ is at http://fudge.phoenyx.net/
>** Don't start deliberately off-topic threads. **

-- -----------------------------------------------
The Fudge List FAQ is at http://fudge.phoenyx.net/
** Don't start deliberately off-topic threads. ** 

SequenceFirst LineUsernameDate
0 truth, it's > several complete games, and if you want to play "straight" Fudge, > then you > need to decide going in which of those versions you want. DhobErman 2001-04-18 17:20:11
1 fudge-error@phoenyx.net [mailto:fudge-error@phoenyx.net]On Behalf > them is the WWG/LUG model of > > > > >Another question is whether there should be a flexible, baseline version > >of Fudge with a clear, Fuzion-style, deliniation of the main DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-24 01:35:13
2 individual, advised by the people around them, > >on the list, that have a stake or who know about marketing, to simply > >choose what works for Fudge. DrIanMcDonald 2001-05-12 03:07:08
3 questions. CarlCravens 2001-04-25 15:59:35
4 I was wondering about the fact that no-else does Fudge supplements the other day. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-24 23:16:24
5 Hey all- I finally started making the Fudge Fan Logo repository. Basically, submit your logos to me and I'll put them up on the internet for all to see, download and use (I'll update that page once a week). TempleOfTheZiggu 2001-04-24 04:57:27
6 hands-down; but it doesn't fare so well in > terms of accessibility - Fuzion is a lot easier to use "out of the box", even > _with_ all of its alternatives and options, because said alternatives and > options are clearly marked as such, and th DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-24 01:35:56
7 In a message dated Mon, 23 Apr 2001 3:52:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Carl D Cravens writes: <<> About Grey Ghost-only logos: we already have one; "Ghostdancer" (the > rearing ghostly horse, created for the company when we were > Ghostdancer P FrogGod 2001-04-23 22:08:04
8 Ghost-only logos: we already have one; "Ghostdancer" (the > rearing ghostly horse, created for the company when we were > Ghostdancer Press). CarlCravens 2001-04-23 20:51:56
9 bunnies now. JohnMorrow 2001-04-23 17:49:38
10 encourage >retailers to shelve those next to the Fudge Expanded Edition (even more >so if Fudge EE had this logo on it as well -- which it could, in 2nd >printing, which I hope to have to do in another year). JoelArellano 2001-04-23 17:24:29
11 objection to it I've seen so far. WhytCrow 2001-04-23 16:33:56
12 tweaking (how do we know it's a > fudge mix box? GhostGames 2001-04-23 16:30:30
13 only the GGG lines of Fudge products > only? GhostGames 2001-04-23 16:28:20
14 handspring. GhostGames 2001-04-23 16:09:29
15 would like some amalgam of Fudge and Fuzion > something I have been considering for a while is making fuzion less > snickety err... CarlCravens 2001-04-23 14:12:15
16 It's an okay core mechanic. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-22 01:48:16
17 Twister (as in the game with the > spinner and dots and strange contortions, not a tornado) I recently got Twister as a birthday present, and then played it at a party. JonathanBenn 2001-04-21 22:29:16
18 It makes +/-4 even rarer. DraGon 2001-04-21 13:31:53
19 have an aversion to D&D/RPGs (as in that > is how they see it). However the vast majority of gamers like D&D so I > don't see how weird dice are going to turn them off. JohnMorrow 2001-04-21 08:17:53
20 get as far as trying RPGs have a vague awareness, or > have been prejudiced by, rules heavy games like D&D. WoEd 2001-04-21 02:23:05
21 Cool :). DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-21 02:10:07
22 Unless she chooses one that is satisfactory for everyone, some > people won't use it. WoEd 2001-04-21 01:38:08
23 Okay, first me: > > Or how about: it's a general purpose Fudge logo that Ann has chosen for >Grey > > Ghost's use. MikeJones 2001-04-21 01:35:41
24 the weird die misleads them into thinking > >the game has complex rules. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-21 01:25:45
25 alas, difficult to get hold of. WoEd 2001-04-21 01:22:37
26 general purpose Fudge logo that Ann has chosen for Grey > Ghost's use. If anyone else wants it, fine. WoEd 2001-04-21 01:15:06
27 alternative combat system for Fudge... JonathanLang 2001-04-21 01:11:26
28 double-check, and I'm way too lazy to go back and look). MikeJones 2001-04-21 00:56:40
29 happy with the chosen > logo and what it signifies, but there's really not too much that can be > done about it, IMO - the list has already proved that we can't come to any > decision as to what makes the right logo right. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-21 00:52:24
30 intended to be a logo for only the GGG lines of Fudge products > logo, then why offer it for other people to use? DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-21 00:52:24
31 d100 I'm going with the chart > in the FEE. JonathanLang 2001-04-21 00:50:37
32 across directly, in other words a D&D +1 sword would also be +1 in this system (in Fudge, it would be a +0 magic sword (divide number of +'s by 2). AndrewMartin 2001-04-21 00:46:41
33 really a part of "core" FUDGE. JonathanLang 2001-04-20 23:14:10
34 the GGG lines of Fudge products >only? MikeJones 2001-04-20 23:04:27
35 That's a nice starting point. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-20 23:03:09
36 building blocks, or bunnies as a > > > logo. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-20 22:59:03
37 Ann, Is this intended to be a logo for only the GGG lines of Fudge products only? DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-20 22:51:37
38 How about a mixing bowl with a spoon in it, with a fudge mix box in the background? JoelArellano 2001-04-20 22:05:57
39 as a > > logo. WhytCrow 2001-04-20 21:27:53
40 Twister (as in the game with the > spinner and dots and strange contortions, not a tornado) Is this one of those times when we all shudder and think, "That's not right!"? ShogGoth 2001-04-20 21:18:53
41 Why not just use chunks of chocolate, a fudge brownie, or a bowl of chocolate being pored into a pan, as a logo? StevensDustin 2001-04-20 21:11:02
42 blocks, or bunnies as a > logo. ShogGoth 2001-04-20 21:09:30
43 anyone has any better ideas? WhytCrow 2001-04-20 21:02:59
44 Not that top-posting isn't annoying, but when people are too lazy to change the SUBJECT LINE to something at least remotely related to the subject matter covered in the body of the message beats all... JimDickinson 2001-04-20 20:09:37
45 Here's a thought: throw away your dice and steal a spinner from a board game. MatthewsonKent 2001-04-20 20:04:18
46 collect >them, and mock them up in HTML. WhytCrow 2001-04-20 19:28:31
47 wide a range (or the extremes > being too common, at least. ShogGoth 2001-04-20 19:09:22
48 could youp provide an example of this 1-20 range in an > example. CarlCravens 2001-04-20 17:54:30
49 d6 solution... JohnMorrow 2001-04-20 17:04:22
50 understand your point of view. JohnMorrow 2001-04-20 16:53:23
51 in a couple of sentences why dice-based logos would be bad? JohnMorrow 2001-04-20 16:48:42
52 get > dFs, how to make dFs, and my favorite d6 alternative and my favorite d100 > alternative. DhobErman 2001-04-20 16:41:02
53 got all these dice I bought >for Champions that are collecting dust. Try this. MikeJones 2001-04-20 16:37:18
54 idea if the Fudge rules were extensively hypertexted and > broken up into small fragments, and then being capable of being joined up in > the preferred order of the GM or to suit a setting. KarenCravens 2001-04-20 16:00:04
55 die" symbol wouldn't be satisfactory to everyone >> (since not everyone uses fudge dice), but I think it would be perfectly >> appropriate for a Fudge logo for Grey Ghost games (since we *do* use logo >specific to Grey Ghost defeats that purpo AdamJ 2001-04-20 15:49:13
56 disagree about that, but I understand your point of view. MikeJones 2001-04-20 15:41:03
57 enough zero results. CarlCravens 2001-04-20 15:38:28
58 are the advantages of using a greater range. CarlCravens 2001-04-20 15:34:57
59 "fudge die" symbol wouldn't be satisfactory to everyone > (since not everyone uses fudge dice), but I think it would be perfectly > appropriate for a Fudge logo for Grey Ghost games (since we *do* use > fudge dice as the default dice mechanism CarlCravens 2001-04-20 15:22:32
60 the Fudge rules were extensively hypertexted and >broken up into small fragments, and then being capable of being joined up in >the preferred order of the GM or to suit a setting. AdamJ 2001-04-20 13:30:21
61 particular group (per campaign, probably) indicating what rules we're using. AndrewMartin 2001-04-20 13:19:51
62 actually agree that a Fudge symbol is a fantastic idea. GhostGames 2001-04-20 12:41:39
63 Andrew, Let us know. JoelArellano 2001-04-20 06:10:48
64 supplements would help >increase its acceptance. MikeJones 2001-04-20 05:07:48
65 That skill maintanence idea is cool. JoelArellano 2001-04-20 01:08:49
66 There are a couple of questions. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-19 23:55:20
67 Carl said: > >[ lots more ] Wow Carl. MikeJones 2001-04-19 23:01:22
68 problem is with the width of the range and frequency of the > extremes... TRm 2001-04-19 22:19:55
69 Joel asked > Could someone provide an example of using--for example--a 21 unit range? AndrewMartin 2001-04-19 22:14:25
70 Carl, I just browsed through the page discussing the last attempt at creating a super-hero supplement using Fudge. JoelArellano 2001-04-19 20:14:01
71 36 of a Zero TR's right... CarlCravens 2001-04-19 17:54:52
72 incomplete, > > just....umm....."unspecified" or (to use a physics > term) "indeterminate". JUghrin 2001-04-19 17:14:19
73 you said (and I read it twice to make sure). MikeJones 2001-04-19 17:46:35
74 gives you the same result as when > > you "nly read the die with the lowest absolute number". MacRoss 2001-04-19 17:05:52
75 results but several interesting ways for costing > powers in objective chargen, and for applying them were discussed. CarlCravens 2001-04-19 15:30:59
76 don't think fudge is incomplete, > just....umm....."unspecified" or (to use a physics term) "indeterminate". CarlCravens 2001-04-19 14:29:52
77 Any news on the Companion book? JoelArellano 2001-04-19 07:37:20
78 the same result as when > you "nly read the die with the lowest absolute number". PhillWebb 2001-04-19 06:32:52
79 "core" Fudge rule? JohnMorrow 2001-04-19 01:15:13
80 The core FUDGE rule: The GM describes a situation, and asks a player what his/her character is trying to do. SgRay 2001-04-18 20:45:19
81 D&D3 does have firearm rules they are in the Dungeon Masters guide........Just thought you'd like to know.........they even have stats for energy weapons ala Expidition to the Barrier Peaks...... Roland Carl D Cravens wrote: > On Wed, 18 Apr 2 RolandPerry 2001-04-18 19:25:41
82 maybe just a little... MikeJones 2001-04-18 17:57:34
83 parties what >>they're trying to do and then ask them to roll some dice and start >>describing the results. JimDickinson 2001-04-18 17:46:27
84 parties what >they're trying to do and then ask them to roll some dice and start >describing the results. MikeJones 2001-04-18 17:38:15
85 alright, but I kind of dislike CDC> subtraction. JimDickinson 2001-04-18 17:29:07
86 After considering the genre (anime), I've already come up with two ways combat will be done in my campaign. JoelArellano 2001-04-18 17:01:45
87 effort >changing and adapting it. MikeJones 2001-04-18 16:43:56
88 Mike, >I think one of the things that sets Fudge apart from something like GURPS >or >Hero is that you customize the rules to the setting rather than having >generic rules that can apply to any setting. JoelArellano 2001-04-18 16:33:33
89 apologize to Steffan. CarlCravens 2001-04-18 16:31:58
90 using the "+/- modifiers" approach, then > (e.g., Fair, Fair+, Good-, Good, Good+, ...). CarlCravens 2001-04-18 16:15:28
91 is not so >much a game as a game-constructor (sorry Steffan). MikeJones 2001-04-18 15:05:09
92 that with a couple extra > levels at the top and making "Mediocre" more the "norm" than "Fair > is. RobBalshaw 2001-04-17 23:45:15
93 what they are. CarlCravens 2001-04-17 21:17:42
94 Issues? JoelArellano 2001-04-17 20:14:44
95 "average" character getting > results all over the range. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-17 23:01:06
96 [mailto:fudge-error@phoenyx.net]On Behalf >Of Carl D Cravens >Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:18 PM >To: fudge@phoenyx.net >Subject: Re: FUDGE: Fudge vs BESM > >You *really* want to hear my peeves about Fudge? JUghrin 2001-04-18 13:31:54
97 Phill, What was some of the results of the superhero discussion? JoelArellano 2001-04-18 16:25:02
98 [mailto:fudge-error@phoenyx.net]On Behalf >Of Mike Jones >Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 11:05 AM >To: fudge@phoenyx.net >Subject: Re: FUDGE: Fudge vs BESM > > >>From: >>Sometimes I feel that way myself. JUghrin 2001-04-19 04:32:23
99 [mailto:fudge-error@phoenyx.net]On Behalf >Of Carl D Cravens >Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 12:32 PM >To: fudge@phoenyx.net >Subject: Re: FUDGE: Fudge vs BESM > > >On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Mike Jones wrote: > whole >> intent. JUghrin 2001-04-19 04:32:27
100 BTW: Subtracting 1 d6 from another gives you the same result as when you "nly read the die with the lowest absolute number". Mitchw 2001-04-19 05:55:06
101 discussion? PhillWebb 2001-04-19 01:04:36
102 1 d6 from another gives you the same result as when you "nly > read the die with the lowest absolute number". TRm 2001-04-19 10:58:29
103 me back up and rexamine my motives. CarlCravens 2001-04-19 22:41:58
104 I'm wrong. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-19 23:38:05
105 Interesting suggestion. JoelArellano 2001-04-20 00:54:24
106 be something to go into the > Fudge Companion?) > > >From: "Andrew Martin" > >Reply-To: fudge@phoenyx.net > >To: fudge@phoenyx.net > cst > > > >Joel asked > > > Could someone provide an example of using--for example--a 21 unit range? DraGon 2001-04-20 05:30:25
107 skill in these manouvers, though I feel that's probably a bit too narrow. AndrewMartin 2001-04-20 08:31:18
108 biggest problem is with the width of the range and frequency of the > likely as > > 4dF does, exacerbating my problem. JohnMorrow 2001-04-19 22:45:43
109 aesthetically. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-20 22:48:36
110 little > > thing that looks like a guy doing a cartwheel. WhytCrow 2001-04-20 22:35:59
111 Freeform -- you don't really _need_ to spend any effort > >changing and adapting it. SgRay 2001-04-18 17:15:56
112 institutes a logo, other people working on > Fudge stuff will follow her lead, thus unifying them. CarlCravens 2001-04-20 19:09:36
113 everyone, some > > people won't use it. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-23 00:00:09
114 horse because Ann likes horses. KarenCravens 2001-04-21 04:30:58
115 Another >Fine Mess and Gatecrasher (2nd edition) scattered throughout the game bins >while all the other games were with their respective companies. WhytCrow 2001-04-23 17:47:34
116 competes with other systems. MichaelOliver 2001-04-24 02:24:24
117 products > > only? DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-24 01:34:58
118 creation of the trait, Super, above Heroic (Legendary) > and the use of Scale. CarlCravens 2001-04-25 14:55:55
119 The bunnies works for me too. DrIanMcDonald 2001-05-06 19:21:57
120 Linux has a mascot, not a logo. DrIanMcDonald 2001-05-06 22:41:27
121 does not go > with the rough, tough cover, and doesn't use it. BrettRitter 2001-05-06 21:00:49
122 into this "logo" or other discussions > right now -- still wading through 300+ messages waiting for me when I > got back from 3 days of gamestore hopping (out of 6 stores visited in > Eastern Mass/Southern New Hampshire last Friday, all had he DrIanMcDonald 2001-05-03 00:46:04
123 Grey Ghost-only logos: we already have one; "Ghostdancer" (the > > rearing ghostly horse, created for the company when we were Ghostdancer Press). GhostGames 2001-04-24 12:49:39
124 Maybe.... TRm 2001-04-24 03:41:06
125 "Ghostdancer" (the > > rearing ghostly horse, created for the company when we were > > Ghostdancer Press). GhostGames 2001-04-23 23:23:22
126 almost seems like you would like some amalgam of Fudge and Fuzion > > something I have been considering for a while is making fuzion less > stomache. JonathanLang 2001-04-23 20:43:04
127 In a message dated 4/23/01 11:10:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ghostgames@fudgerpg.com writes: > > I think we're back to bunnies now. :-) > > How about a bunny made of two puzzle pieces, with the tongue/groove running down the wee beastie's mid MalaGigi 2001-04-23 19:37:05
128 hypertexted and > > broken up into small fragments, and then being capable of being joined up in > > the preferred order of the GM or to suit a setting. JoeMurphyBroin 2001-04-23 12:54:41
129 the Fudge levels, then apply that level as a wound. AndrewMartin 2001-04-21 23:06:54
130 [snip bit about using Fudge dice in logo] > It won't put off the "vast majority of gamers", I agree. JosephRDietrich 2001-04-21 17:54:33
131 or > > have been prejudiced by, rules heavy games like D&D. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-21 11:31:02
132 chooses one that is satisfactory for everyone, some > people won't use it. JohnMorrow 2001-04-21 08:29:13
133 are going over this issue again WITH THE > SAME ARGUEMENTS. JohnMorrow 2001-04-21 08:22:38
134 new to RPGs, and the weird die misleads them into thinking > > the game has complex rules. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-21 01:51:55
135 that lets you pick all your options, then presents you with a "compiled" version. AndrewMartin 2001-04-21 00:35:04
136 for Fudge... AndrewMartin 2001-04-21 00:24:43
137 putting people off] > > I disagree about that, but I understand your point of view. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-20 23:17:03
138 I still don't think the dice are a negative, but I TWC> realize that is a minority opinion. JimDickinson 2001-04-20 23:10:37
139 that had been done (some of the ones I've seen, > anyway), were kind of nifty. CarlCravens 2001-04-20 22:19:23
140 5d6.1 methods mentioned at Mike Harvey's Fudge site: Hum. CarlCravens 2001-04-20 21:51:33
141 think >it carries some implications I'm not sure I'd want to see in an official >Fudge logo intended for use by multiple companies. WhytCrow 2001-04-20 19:49:24
142 (raven@phoenyx.net) Fudge List Owner > [ Phoenyx PBeM Roleplaying -- http://www.phoenyx.net/ ] > If you don't support shareware, who will? List FAQ is at http://fudge.phoenyx.net/ > ** Don't start deliberately off-topic threads. DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-20 19:42:29
143 you mind elaborating on what these are? CarlCravens 2001-04-20 19:13:38
144 you have a much larger range of relative degree. JohannHibschman 2001-04-20 19:03:12
145 Carl, >I can show you how to reasonable use a 20-unit range very simply though. JoelArellano 2001-04-20 16:39:14
146 logo >specific to Grey Ghost defeats that purpose. WhytCrow 2001-04-20 15:42:05
147 Companion?) It could do. AndrewMartin 2001-04-20 01:51:43
148 Mike, Great suggestion on how to use Fudge. JoelArellano 2001-04-20 01:16:39
149 are the advantages of using a greater range. JohnMorrow 2001-04-19 22:39:12
150 BTW: Subtracting 1 d6 from another gives you the same result as when you "nly > read the die with the lowest absolute number". DrIanMcDonald 2001-04-19 21:26:10
151 I'm still not to sure what are the advantages of using a greater range. JoelArellano 2001-04-19 20:34:36
152 rule: That's a generalized description of RPG action resolution, not the core rules of Fudge. CarlCravens 2001-04-19 02:08:50
153 d6-d6, treating 6's as 1's (or 3's) but > I'm not sure about it. TRm 2001-04-18 23:36:56
154 don't like using the "+/- modifiers" approach, then : > (e.g., Fair, Fair+, Good-, Good, Good+, ...). DeLos 2001-04-18 21:40:05
155 why he thinks Fudge is a >complete game. MikeJones 2001-04-18 17:09:31
156 that way myself. SgRay 2001-04-18 15:59:14
157 extra levels at the top and making "Mediocre" more the "norm" than "Fair is. AndrewMartin 2001-04-18 08:34:22
158 that with a couple extra > levels at the top and making "Mediocre" more the "norm" than "Fair is. PhillWebb 2001-04-18 07:25:58
159 Carl, Thanks for your input. JoelArellano 2001-04-18 06:33:55
160 [mailto:fudge-error@phoenyx.net]On Behalf >Of Dr Ian McDonald >There are a couple of questions. JUghrin 2001-04-23 23:47:20