Fudge RPG - The Future of Fudge Factor

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From: CarlCravens

Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:43:49 GMT

Subject: The Future of Fudge Factor


---+ The Future of Fudge Factor
---++ An Essay of Enormous Girth

If you're not going to read all of this, I need you to at least tell
me this...  if you're a Fudge Factor reader, would you pay money for
Fudge Factor's content?  Most of the options I outline involve paying
authors, which means somebody has to cough up the money for that
somehow.

---++ The way things are

Ever since the Grey Ghost offer, our pile of available articles has 
been shrinking.  At the end of the offer, we had over half a year's 
worth of articles.  In that half-year since, we've received no more 
than a dozen submissions.  We need more than double that to keep going
as we are now.

We've always been concerned about Fudge Factors viability from the
very beginning... the free stuff just tends to run out.  The contest
didn't work, and we can't rely on Grey Ghost giving away a new $40
book every six months to our authors.

So I've been mulling over several options lately.  Not all of them are
presented here... these are just the most likely ones.

---++ The options under consideration

---+++ Option 1: Free and less-frequent

This is the easiest, because it actually means less work for everyone.
We back off the aggressive weekly publication schedule... make it
every other week or twice a month.  Or monthly... whatever rate at
which new articles come in.

I don't think anybody wins here.  Going this route might reach a
stable level, or it might mean even fewer contributions and eventually
fading out.

---+++ Option 2: Donations and author payment

I bite the bullet and take donations (which means I get to do all the
income tax stuff), paying authors a really small amount for their
articles...  a penny a word, maybe.  That would make our average
article about $30.  Which means we'd have to _take in_ $30 a week.
That's over 300 people donating five bucks each every year... I'm not
optimistic about that.

We might be able to go for half-a-cent a word, which makes it 150
people donating $5 each and the average 3000-word article gets $15.

Would $15 or $30 for 3000 words encourage people to write?  That's
getting down into non-incentive territory.  Pyramid Online pays six
cents a word, but they have several thousand paying subscribers.  I
got two cents a word for my article in the 10th anniversary book.

(Alternative: Tip individual authors.  We could do it without much
more work, but I think it would limit the number of authors... it
would be a "you might get paid, you might not" situation.  I'd rather
guarantee each author equal payment.)

---+++ Option 3: Jump formats, charge money, pay authors

This is the most radical, and actually the one I'm most interested
in. :)

Forget the free webzine entirely.  Move to a quarterly digest format,
where we're more of a "collection of articles published in book form"
than a magazine.  Publish it through Lulu.com, where people can get a
nice physical book or PDF, their choice.  I've bought some games
published through Lulu, and their quality is very nice.

We could solicit articles on a royalty basis... whatever money comes
in gets divided up among the authors of that issue, probably based on
their word counts.  We could solicit art for the articles and make it
a real bang-up job.  (We might have to do a small up-front payment and
royalties later.)

So no (or few) up-front costs... my wife and I have the skills to put
together a nice looking book (she used to do publication design work,
and we've both done a lot of amateur design work), there's no up-front
printing costs thanks to Lulu, and Lulu handles all of the store,
shopping cart and delivery stuff.  No setup fee, no minimum
quantities.

I _probably_ wouldn't make any money off of this... all the profits
would go directly back to the authors and artists.  (I reserve for
myself the possibility that I could be crazy for thinking I'd do it
for free when I'm giving up an opportunity to write for myself.)

This could work, but it would be an entirely different creature than
the webzine.  The webzine publishes weekly and is constantly "out
there."  A quarterly publication would have long delays in between...
but it would also be "always available".  Thanks to Lulu, the books
would never go out-of-print.  And we _might_ be able to get Fudge
Factor into game stores, an area the online zine can never reach.
(Lulu has a fairly inexpensive option to make the book available to
bookstores, including Amazon... but we wouldn't see too much profit
from those.)

It would also deprive the Fudge community of a lot of free content.
But I'm not convinced that free is producing the best content or, in
the end, as _much_ content as pay-for would do.  Look at what we got
when we "paid" authors with a free book, and then what we got when we
stopped.

If we don't get enough articles to keep the weekly format going, we're
going to lose that level of free content anyway.

In the long run, I think this might help Fudge more than the free
content.  For future people coming to Fudge, Fudge Factor's archive
would still be available... it would be all-new to them.  But FF
Quarterly might lend Fudge more credibility... it wouldn't be a fan
publication, it would be a "real" publication.

But it would mean this... say a 128 page book for about$20, about nine
or ten 3000-word articles on average.  Fudge Factor would start
costing those who buy it $80 a year.  A lot fewer people would be
reading it than those that read the webzine...  it might be better if
a larger number of people donated twenty bucks a year to the webzine,
in terms of the number of people who get the material.  (Also, the PDF
would cost $13 under that setup.)

A rough estimate, an author of a 3000 word article might make a dollar
for every book sold, depending on how much art costs, how many words
we put on a page, and and what we pay editors and layout (i.e. me and
my wife).  We'd make the same whether someone bought a physical book
or just a PDF.

I have to say I like the idea of putting this kind of thing together.
But would people buy it?  What if it were 64 pages and $12 (which is
about the same payment level to the authors, just half as many
articles)?

(Alternative: After a year, drop the cost of the book to "zero
royalty" which menas the PDF becomes free and the book costs only what
it costs Lulu to print it.  It would be delayed, but the content would
eventually be free.  I'm sure sales after a year would otherwise be
negligible, so cutting off author payments after a year wouldn't be a
big thing.)

---++ The summary

I like the physical book idea... but I don't know if it's the right
idea or even a good idea.  I think it would give authors more
incentive... it's more "in print" than the web is.

If we got enough donations, we could make the web thing work... but
it's going to mean a _lot_ of donations if we're going to pay our
authors enough to make it an incentive.

What do you think?  Let me know... what would you pay for, how much
would you pay?  What do you think would be best for the Fudge
community and Fudge publishing?

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)
Shell to DOS....come in DOS...Do you copy?
-- -----------------------------------------------------------
The Fudge List FAQ is at http://fudge.phoenyx.net/listfaq.html
    The Fudge List Guide to Fudge http://fudge.phoenyx.net/

SequenceFirst LineUsernameDate
0

i think that FF is an incredible resource as is.

AlejandroJoseGer 2005-12-23 03:23:40
1

with the option i just gave you could still collect a fee of some type.

alex

AlejandroJoseGer 2005-12-23 03:27:58
2

I think this option is best especially if we have copies being sold at FLGS.

EricPaquette 2005-12-23 14:29:49
3

> there is a 4th option that you may not have considered.

I've considered releasing a "best of Fudge Factor" annual...

CarlCravens 2005-12-23 05:24:58
4

How much experience does Lulu.com have in shipping to foreign countries?

EricPaquette 2005-12-23 14:54:41
5

> How much experience does Lulu.com have in shipping to foreign

I don't know.

CarlCravens 2005-12-23 16:07:59
6

> ---++ The summary

I think it would encourage more authors, but would it really encourage more readers?

DavidJaquith 2005-12-23 15:18:08
7

Ok.

EricPaquette 2005-12-23 16:15:17
8

> Ok.

CarlCravens 2005-12-23 22:11:29
9

Carl,
I bet that was a non-native English error not an order.

Mitch

Mitchw 2005-12-23 23:07:17
10

That's what it sounded like to me.


The Fudge List FAQ is at
http:/fudge.phoenyx.netlistfaq.html<A>

The Fudge List Guide to Fudge http:

DavidJaquith 2005-12-23 23:45:16
11

David says making Fudge Factor into a "for pay" product could hurt its readers.

PaulTarus 2005-12-23 17:17:25
12 Deeply sorry, didn't meant it as an order. EricPaquette 2005-12-24 01:27:46
13
Mitch

> I wonder if there is any book worthy value in what we already have

I've certainly considered it, and I've been thinking that if we went with the pay-for route, I'd do something like this first to test the waters an

CarlCravens 2005-12-24 01:33:30
14

> I think we'd have to do it up right...

Mitchw 2005-12-24 01:58:30
15

I'm going to pull a couple posts together and reply to them all at once.

I want to make it clear, as I stated in the initial post, that I'm not convinced that paper publishing is the way to go.

CarlCravens 2005-12-24 01:28:58
16

I wonder if there is any book worthy value in what we already have on the site.

Mitchw 2005-12-23 19:27:35
17

> David says making Fudge Factor into a "for pay" product could hurt

Speaking as the person who's been viewing the web-forum version of the Fudge list, I'd like to point out that you are<STRONG> allowed to agree without top-posting

KarenCravens 2005-12-24 03:21:27
18

Ok, I agree with this.

DavidJaquith 2005-12-24 05:07:55
19

> I wonder if Ann would let us recycle some of the art from the 10th and

That kind of clip art is a look I'd like to stay away from...

CarlCravens 2005-12-24 02:06:05
20

I would definitely buy a huge tome of FF.

WillMistretta 2005-12-23 19:39:43
21

> I like the physical book idea...

BradfordYounie 2005-12-24 11:49:17
22

> I would definitely buy a huge tome of FF.

BradfordYounie 2005-12-24 11:52:43
23

Hmm.

The concept of a printed Fudge factor is interesting.

JarrodHenry 2005-12-24 13:33:15
24

Carl said:

I concue that this would be s Superb idea.

> The big question is,

We (the Fudge list) aren't the ones to target with this.

BobSlaughter 2005-12-24 19:51:19
25

BY>I have to admit that I like this idea myself.

KarenCravens 2005-12-24 15:07:35
26

Quoting jarrodhenry@comcast.net:

I'm afraid I'm probably with Jarrod here.

GmDslOnlyNet 2005-12-24 18:24:12
27

> How much experience does Lulu.com have in shipping to foreign

I ordered around 5 time from Lulu, and everything has been shipped to France without problem.

André Le Deist.


The Fudge List FAQ is at
Iso88591Bqw5kcuk
2005-12-24 22:04:46
28

> Ok, I agree with this.

CarlCravens 2005-12-25 03:00:26
29

CDC>And public radio and television.

KarenCravens 2005-12-25 03:27:17
30

From:<A> "Carl D Cravens"
Count me in the "will pay" category.

EricPaquette 2005-12-25 03:28:15
31

>>I think we'd have to do it up right...

GhostGames 2005-12-24 14:11:11
32

> I don't think any of the Fudge publishers have the advertising budget

What are your web stats for Fudge Factor?

GhostGames 2005-12-24 14:09:56
33

> What are your web stats for Fudge Factor?

CarlCravens 2005-12-25 04:26:55
34

> The concept of a printed Fudge factor is interesting.

CarlCravens 2005-12-25 04:13:21
35

> I'm afraid I'm probably with Jarrod here.

CarlCravens 2005-12-25 05:16:04
36

> I have to admit that I like this idea myself.

CarlCravens 2005-12-25 03:44:13
37

This isn't a good situation.

My view (largely uninformed by hard data) is that the RPG industry doesn't support very many full-time staff (400?), and mainly gets its creative content from people who will accept well under the market rate, because

DrIanMcDonald 2005-12-27 00:50:14
38

> This isn't a good situation.

I started to agree.

CarlCravens 2005-12-27 05:35:41
39

> I'm thinking that Fudge Factor, being more general<U> than any other

Well, I buy everything that I can for Fudge but I know others don't or can't.

Mitchw 2005-12-27 06:28:58
40

I just had to come back to my earlier concern about losing readers.

DavidJaquith 2005-12-27 12:36:11
41

CDC>Product only works for authors who want the products offered, CDC>unfortunately.

KarenCravens 2005-12-27 15:33:45
42

---+ The Future of Fudge Factor
---++ An Essay of Enormous Girth

If you're not going to read all of this, I need you to at least tell me this...

CarlCravens 2005-12-23 00:43:49
43

[I would like to pay staff, artists and]

If you move to print, you might be able to keep it free for subscribers, and make enough money to pay your writers, artists, and staff.

GeorgeHarnish 2005-12-27 16:44:36
44

Hmm.

This has been an interesting discussion, but I'm curious if it's going to help at all.

JarrodHenry 2005-12-27 18:54:25
45

Quoting Carl D Cravens :

No worries.

GmDslOnlyNet 2005-12-27 20:16:38
46

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:44:36 -0000, George Harnish wrote:

That's not neccessarily the case.

DarrenHill 2005-12-27 16:51:29
47

I wonder if the sales from selling collections of articles from the past in print & PDF could pay for writers of future articles.

BradfordYounie 2005-12-27 19:22:32
48

> I wonder if the sales from selling collections of articles from the

I keep saying this, and I think you keep missing it...

CarlCravens 2005-12-28 03:09:00
49

From: "Carl D Cravens"
Another that I see against selling the old articles is that it would do an
injustice for past writers if their articles were printed and sold

EricPaquette 2005-12-28 03:49:43
50

i agree with this sentiment, though i am shocked that there have been many "i love it, but won't pay for it" statements i believe that it stems from the all too human flaw of not willing to except change whether for good or bad...

i think that

AlejandroJoseGer 2005-12-28 04:28:05
51

> Like Carl, I'm shocked that there's several people refusing the idea of

I am going to respond to several post here...<A><H1>

First let me say, I try to get all of the Fudge published items and I would pay for th

Mitchw 2005-12-28 04:31:39
52

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 04:31:39 -0000, Mitch Williams wrote:

One thing I'd like to add here.

DarrenHill 2005-12-28 09:50:45
53

> I keep saying this, and I think you keep missing it...

BradfordYounie 2005-12-28 12:15:52
54

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:46:19 -0000, David Jaquith wrote:

> On 122805, Darren Hill wrote:

I know that, I'm one of those people.

DarrenHill 2005-12-28 12:56:41
55

> One thing I'd like to add here.

CarlCravens 2005-12-28 16:22:37
56

> I believe the whole point of making old articles free is that it makes

When you put it that way, it sounds kind of ironic.

CarlCravens 2005-12-28 16:26:17
57

Actually a good business worries about what makes everyone happy.

You shouldn't worry about who will pay for your product -nowexclusively.

DavidJaquith 2005-12-28 16:51:58
58

To me, for your plan, the non-paying customers are a bonus.

EricPaquette 2005-12-28 16:51:18
59

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:22:37 -0000, Carl D Cravens wrote:

I wasn't thinking of sorcerer.

DarrenHill 2005-12-28 18:12:39
60

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:51:58 -0000, David Jaquith wrote:

I don't think a business can be judged a good (or, at any rate, successful) business if it gives away all of its product for free. Any supporter of FF should b

DarrenHill 2005-12-28 17:49:10
61

i agree with this.

AlejandroJoseGer 2005-12-28 19:45:45
62

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Mike Harvey

>

JarrodHenry 2005-12-29 00:23:57
63

> If I am not mistaken, Fudge Factor was not started to be a business.

CarlCravens 2005-12-29 03:11:27
64

Hello all,

My answers to Carl's question by option :

---+++ Option 1: Free and less-frequent

Would be good (this list and FF are the blood and flesh of Fudge) if keeps FF running.

---+++ Option 2: Donations and author payment

I share you

Iso88591Bqw5kcuk 2005-12-29 01:32:28
65

...About Fudge.

Sorry to disturb your discussion about the future of Fudge Factor.

ClanGador 2005-12-29 04:06:04
66

Okay...

CarlCravens 2005-12-29 03:44:38
67

Yep, there are all sorts of rules.

The one I use (when I choose to use such rules) is you create another standard fudge damage scale, except you rename Scratch, Hurt, V.

DavidJaquith 2005-12-29 04:23:02
68

> I'd do the same thing with encumbrance.

Mitchw 2005-12-29 05:16:26
69

I don't have my books in front of me right now but was there encumberance and movement rules in Fantasy Fudge, Now Playing or Hack-N-Slash?

Mitch


The Fudge List FAQ is at
http:/fudge.pho
Mitchw 2005-12-29 05:18:43
70

I have my copy of Hack-N-Slash now.

Mitchw 2005-12-29 05:39:00
71

HnS is sold on LULU if you want to see how they work or get the game.

http://www.lulu.comcontent150568

Mitch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitch Williams"

Mitchw 2005-12-29 05:52:06
72

> I don't have my books in front of me right now but was there encumberance

I don't think I put anything in NP.

BradfordYounie 2005-12-29 14:41:01
73

I don't have the text saved anywhere, but there were a couple of good encumbrance rules worked out on this list in the past.

PaulTarus 2005-12-29 23:03:18
74

Well the Fudge Hack -N- Slash rules would seem to fit your needs.

Mitchw 2005-12-30 19:01:55
75 something from

Well, you will certainl have to steal them then.

ChrisHelton 2005-12-30 18:58:18
76

Quoting Clangador :

> Are there any rules about movement and encumbrance for Fudge?

GmDslOnlyNet 2005-12-30 19:17:03
77

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Helton" To:
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 10:58 AM Subject: Re: FUDGE: A Couple More Questions...

ClanGador 2005-12-30 19:56:40
78

By experience, players who don't want to play anything other than X game will never be satisfied unless it's X game.

EricPaquette 2005-12-31 01:29:13
79

> Deeply sorry, didn't meant it as an order.

CarlCravens 2005-12-24 01:44:45
80

DJ>I just had a concern...

KarenCravens 2005-12-31 15:10:32
81

-------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Karen J.

JarrodHenry 2005-12-31 18:13:23
82

Speaking of sponsors...

Mitchw 2006-01-01 13:27:29
83

Hi all

I know I'm a bit late on this issue but you know, Christmas holidays have such an effect!

GobLyn 2006-01-02 20:24:23
84 authors we have. GobLyn 2006-01-02 20:26:28
85

> (As a side note,

Don't worry about that...

CarlCravens 2006-01-03 04:58:49
86

Okay, I have given in to the evil, if only for a trial period.

I've signed up for Google AdSense...

CarlCravens 2006-01-03 04:57:22
87

CDC>Okay, I have given in to the evil, if only for a trial period.

Speaking of evil, would it be evil to relegate all the FF dicussion to +ffcomm?

KarenCravens 2006-01-03 05:17:43
88

Quoting Carl D Cravens :

> Okay, I have given in to the evil, if only for a trial period.

I think it is appropriate.

PSimmons 2006-01-03 06:36:26
89

Until this issue is 'settled' I think we need to all see it.

Mitchw 2006-01-03 05:43:18
90

> Speaking of evil, would it be evil to relegate all the FF dicussion to

I've thought about the issue before...

CarlCravens 2006-01-03 14:28:25
91

MW>Until this issue is 'settled' I think we need to all see it.

KarenCravens 2006-01-03 14:16:35
92

I just had a concern...

DavidJaquith 2005-12-31 09:11:20
93

The encumbrance rules I think I'll use, if I ever use any formal rules, are in the archives at:

http://www.phoenyx.netfudge200001msg00279.html

Phill

PhillWebb 2005-12-29 13:00:02
94

> Quoting Darren Hill :

Just to clarify, it was me who used that language, not Carl - and I was talking about Fudge Factor as it might become, a commercial periodical, by definition a business.

DarrenHill 2005-12-29 00:31:28
95

Quoting Darren Hill :

If I am not mistaken, Fudge Factor was not started to be a business.

GmDslOnlyNet 2005-12-28 22:30:25
96

MH>Also I enjoy reading paper but I'm much more interested in having electronic MH>copy that I can cut and paste.

KarenCravens 2005-12-25 03:23:58
97

> I think this option is best especially if we have copies being sold

I wouldn't get too hung up on this being the redeeming feature of this option...

CarlCravens 2005-12-23 14:42:58
98

What I am looking for is formal rules for movement and encumbrance.

ClanGador 2005-12-30 17:41:47
99

> Are there any rules about movement and encumbrance for Fudge?

RobbNeumann 2005-12-29 04:24:09
100

> So if you're really keen on having the writers compensated, you should

I believe the whole point of making old articles free is that it makes the people who don't pay happy.


The Fudge List FAQ is at
DavidJaquith
2005-12-28 12:46:19
101

> Could you set up some kind of automated "Hey the new FF is

That's available now...

CarlCravens 2005-12-28 02:44:07
102

A bunch of bitchy-sounding stuff.

Mike, I'm sorry if I came off sounding bitchy.

CarlCravens 2005-12-26 15:47:19