Fudge RPG - Another case of "I just don't get it"

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Fudge Guide > Archives > Mailing List > 2006 > January > Full Thread

From: Mitchw

Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 07:02:40 GMT

Subject: Another case of "I just don't get it"

Savage Worlds only has 5 trait levels (D4, D6, D8, D10, D12) but I don't see anyone complaining that it is too narrow.  I have heard that complaint about the trait ladder in Fudge for ever.  SW only has 4 levels of damage for major characters, Fudge has 5 on the basic damage track.  Why is SW so much more accepted than Fudge?

I just don't get it.

Mitch-- -----------------------------------------------------------
The Fudge List FAQ is at http://fudge.phoenyx.net/listfaq.html
    The Fudge List Guide to Fudge http://fudge.phoenyx.net/
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MW>Savage Worlds only has 5 trait levels (D4, D6, D8, D10, D12) but I MW>don't see anyone complaining that it is too narrow.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 14:47:31
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Quoting "Karen J.

 GmDslOnlyNet 2006-01-07 16:42:53
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Yes, the wild die can explode.

 Mitchw 2006-01-07 17:21:09
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MH>Yes, and no.

That's my big complaint about Fudge dice.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 16:50:20
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If by rolling outside trait level means you can somehow achieve a roll with a total of, say, 13 using only a d4 Trait in Savage Worlds, then yes.

That could be part of it.

 LAPArcilla 2006-01-07 18:56:02
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Quoting "Karen J.

 GmDslOnlyNet 2006-01-07 17:29:00
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> I have two possible solutions; one is to extend the difficultyperformance

I've flirted with this idea for a long time because I like that attributes, skills, and other traits that may use the same scale (like superpower gifts with a rating) ha

 DavidJaquith 2006-01-07 19:53:54
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Quoting David Jaquith :

True, but after computing relative degree you have converted to a numeric scale so the adjectives are no longer relevant.

 GmDslOnlyNet 2006-01-07 20:19:12
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MW>Yes, the wild die can explode.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 21:47:16
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MH>I have two possible solutions; one is to extend the difficultyperformance MH>scale, but not the skill scale.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 21:49:51
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>> Can you roll completely outside SW's trait level on a basic die roll?

> If by rolling outside trait level means you can somehow achieve a roll with a total of,

I think she means how you can wind up with results like "Legendary +2" in Fudg

 TimHuntley 2006-01-07 19:06:22
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LAPA>That could be part of it.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 21:50:53
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> That's the thing...

 DavidJaquith 2006-01-07 22:06:27
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> put a hard cap at Legendary.

 RobRendell 2006-01-07 22:35:42
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> it's elegant, yet also supremely b0rken.

I don't know if I'd say "supremely" or not.

 TimHuntley 2006-01-07 22:14:01
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> Don't use the adjectives at all.

That's actually a good point.

 TimHuntley 2006-01-07 22:15:35
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TH>I don't know if I'd say "supremely" or not.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 22:36:40
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> Fudge dice are too big for the scale.

So why not...

 TimHuntley 2006-01-07 22:47:18
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TH>So why not...

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 22:53:45
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> Oh, it's not just that you run out of adjectives.

 RobbNeumann 2006-01-07 22:48:45
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RN>I can't believe this is still a conversation topic.

Well, that's because it hasn't been fixed.

RN>The odds of a person with a Fair skill performing at a Legendary rate RN>are pretty low.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 22:54:41
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I guess I would argue that it has been fixed by the numerous dice mechanics that have been thrown around by list members over the years.

 RobbNeumann 2006-01-07 23:03:49
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RN>I guess I would argue that it has been fixed by the numerous dice RN>mechanics that have been thrown around by list members over the RN>years.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 23:10:28
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> The odds of a person with a Fair skill performing at a Legendary rate

What about skill modifiers?

If you're attempting an action with very favorable circumstances, a +2 modifier can easily make you get a +4 result using a Fair skill. Above +4

DavidJaquith 2006-01-07 22:56:57
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> RN>I guess I would argue that it has been fixed by the numerous dice

Fine, you win.

 RobbNeumann 2006-01-07 23:24:41
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RN>Fine, you win.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 23:52:59
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Huh?

 RobbNeumann 2006-01-08 00:04:34
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> you could add another level above "Legendary", called "Perfect".

 ThomasCackler 2006-01-08 00:56:04
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> So what does the mainstream want in terms of setting?

 ThomasCackler 2006-01-12 15:02:36
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Partly...

 NickMead 2006-01-09 23:42:35
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Has anyone tried to calculate spreads with other polyhedral dice? Like having d8 with 2 +, 2 -, and 4 blanks, and roll 4 of them. Or d12 with 1 +, 1 -, and 10 blanks and you roll 4 of them. All solutions I remember seeing seem to use only d6.

 EricPaquette 2006-01-09 14:31:40
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HLK>After reading this article, I rarely make my players roll, except in HLK>combat.[*] However, there is still the problem that not all Fudge players HLK>read Fudge Factor, and in that respect I agree with you.

That's so, though that kind of ends

 KarenCravens 2006-01-08 02:31:12
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RN>Huh?

 KarenCravens 2006-01-08 00:16:09
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>> The odds of a person with a Fair skill performing at a Legendary rate

Well, I think this gets back to the issue of a +1 being a big deal in Fudge.

 RobbNeumann 2006-01-07 23:23:24
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> My other solution, which I like in theory but have not used in practice,

Actually, expanding slightly on that idea: you could add another level above "Legendary", called "Perfect".

 RobRendell 2006-01-08 00:42:49
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> The variance between, say, +2 and -2 is still pretty painful, actually.

http:/www.fudgefactor.org200507taking-all-fudge-factors-int

 HelgeLundKolstad 2006-01-08 01:33:43
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>>From the Fudge rules: "There is no need to roll the dice when a character performs an action that is so easy as to be automatic.

 ChrisHelton 2006-01-08 02:22:03
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My way of dealing with this is at:
http:/www.yarranet.net.auphillfudgephudge_trait_scale.html<A>

I slot in Amazing between Superb and Legen

 PhillWebb 2006-01-08 01:29:49
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PW>Of course it sounds like Karen's issue is much more one of reality PW>suspender snapping of "how can a Fair X perform at a Legendary level PW>shouldn't they perform Fair most of the time" PW>That's a much harder to deal with while keeping the Trai

 KarenCravens 2006-01-08 02:34:07
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Quoting Robb Neumann :

4dF padded do almost the same thing using standard fudge dice: Roll 4dF and adjust the result one step toward zero. Example: +3 becomes +2, -1 becomes 0, 0 stays 0.

Mike

The Fudge List FAQ is at 		GmDslOnlyNet 2006-01-08 02:46:00
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MH>4dF padded do almost the same thing using standard fudge dice: MH>Roll 4dF and adjust the result one step toward zero. MH>Example: +3 becomes +2, -1 becomes 0, 0 stays 0.

Well, and as I mentioned elsethreadwhere, I've played Champions.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-08 02:53:58
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> I can't believe this is still a conversation topic.

It's still a conversation topic because nobody's ever resolved the issue satisfactorily.

> The odds of a person with a Fair skill performing at a Legendary rate

It's actua

 CarlCravens 2006-01-08 03:34:34
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DJ>I don't see it as broken.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-07 22:38:31
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> I have this irrational desire to not lose the Fudge Dice.

 RobbNeumann 2006-01-08 12:36:07
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> characters involved are truly heroic.

 CarlCravens 2006-01-08 03:49:37
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> This is a general roleplaying problem...

 RobbNeumann 2006-01-08 12:42:38
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> That's my big complaint about Fudge dice.

 GeorgeHarnish 2006-01-08 07:57:01
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> There's no 4d6.1 in 1995 Fudge, therefore it's not in F10,

Ahhh...

 RobbNeumann 2006-01-08 12:50:20
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GH>Well, it's all how you look at it.

 KarenCravens 2006-01-08 15:40:43
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RN>Ahhh...

 KarenCravens 2006-01-08 15:45:57
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> To answer Tim's question...

 HelgeLundKolstad 2006-01-08 15:03:57
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On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 15:40:43 -0000, Karen J.

 DarrenHill 2006-01-08 17:15:46
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What's the point of exploding dice if any thing better than 4 is a success?

 Chuk 2006-01-09 18:48:18
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Quoting Chuk Goodin :

It's mostly for the combat system.

In the original edition, for each "raise" on your attack roll you got +2 to damage.

 GmDslOnlyNet 2006-01-09 19:52:25
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> From: Mike Harvey

> FWIW Dept.: I find it ironic that this is considered a problem with Fudge and

Yea, that was my point when starting this thread.

 Mitchw 2006-01-09 20:10:08
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I've never much seen much sense to the complaint.

 AaronClausen 2006-01-09 22:54:57
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> From: Chuk Goodin

Well the target is 4 after modifiers so you could have a -2 for cover and a -1 for fog and the target would really be 7.

 Mitchw 2006-01-09 19:58:02
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The sheer amount of flexibility and DIY in FUDGE is one of the reasons we've crossed it off the short list for use in a regular "Beer 'n Pretzel" games where everyone runs one-shots in difference genres, but using the same base system.

We wanted so

 JaySon 2006-01-10 00:51:03
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For something similar, what about rolling only when the skill is lower in rank than the difficulty of the task?

 RonaldPyatt 2006-01-09 04:59:40
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>

What's wrong with rolling 4d6, with '6' being +1 and '1' being -1?

 PaulTarus 2006-01-11 23:40:18
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>

I would suggest that your problem is with dice in general, and not with Fudge.

 PaulTarus 2006-01-11 23:59:29
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> Yea, that was my point when starting this thread.

 CarlCravens 2006-01-12 04:40:11
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> fast rules like THE combat rules, THE character creation

This is it exactly, the perception of Fudge is that it is a toolkit with which one creates systems...not a complete system in and of itself.

 ChrisHelton 2006-01-09 20:37:39
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>But how often do you need to know exact relative degree above Superb?

 DonBisdorf 2006-01-12 12:41:23
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>>But how often do you need to know exact relative degree above Superb?

Now Playing uses the following formula for calculating your Wound level, and this is taken right out of the Fudge SRD:

Damage = RD + OF - DF
Damage = Relative Degree + Of

 BradfordYounie 2006-01-12 14:17:05
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> Heck, I bet that if someone started a "Exalted in

That's still showing people how to do the heaving lifting themselves.

You want to erase the perception that Fudge is "just" a toolkit (and F10 is still just a toolkit), publish a "comple

 CarlCravens 2006-01-12 04:55:08
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So what does the mainstream want in terms of setting?

 EricPaquette 2006-01-12 14:58:36
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>> But how often do you need to know exact relative degree above Superb?

Results of Legendary+X are fairly common in our games.

 GmDslOnlyNet 2006-01-12 14:47:22
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With respect to Carl and Karen's desire to have Fudge results match the scale, here is a die-rolling technique that accomplishes that using Fudge dice.

 GmDslOnlyNet 2006-01-12 15:12:05
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> With respect to Carl and Karen's desire to have Fudge results match the

This sounds cool.

 BradfordYounie 2006-01-12 15:29:23
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> Well, both fantasy and horror sell really well.

Today, even popular science-fiction like Star Wars are really Fantasy in a futuristic setting.

Here are some things that I can think of that make Horror and Fantasy so successful in the mainstream

 JonathanBenn 2006-01-12 15:39:32
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Warning, this might be a bit long.

 ChristopherFletc 2006-01-12 17:10:34
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> part of the problem with Fudge is that there's too much left up to me.

 TimHuntley 2006-01-12 17:35:43
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> Not a problem!

 ChristopherFletc 2006-01-12 20:59:13
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> The HeartQuest stuff didn't appeal to me

I'll be the first to admit that HeartQuest isn't for everyone.

> I'm still not sure where to go with it.

Do yourself a favor and pick up Now Playing.

 TimHuntley 2006-01-12 21:17:13
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> and I've got no clue what Dyreni(sp) is about, except

It's a very cool low fantasy setting based in fictional world that is similar to Medieval Europe.

 BradfordYounie 2006-01-12 21:24:24
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>

 PaulTarus 2006-01-12 00:08:27
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Just my two cents on the fudge dice issue (this got longer and longer as I wrote it, and less and less focused, so my apologies for that up front):

[Keeping in mind that the designer of Fudge made it clear that 4dF was chosen because it seemed the b

 PaulTarus 2006-01-13 07:52:14
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> From:

Off the top of my head I would say think of it as "Roll and Keep", so if the total modifier is +2 you roll as many dice as you would normally (4 or more or less) plus 2 more dice and drop the lowest 2 dice before ge

 Mitchw 2006-01-13 14:29:52
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> Warning, this might be a bit long.

 BradfordYounie 2006-01-12 17:38:53
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> So what does the mainstream want in terms of setting?

 BradfordYounie 2006-01-12 15:11:07
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> What's wrong with rolling 4d6, with '6' being +1 and '1' being -1?

For some reason lots of people don't like substituting on d6s.

 TimHuntley 2006-01-11 23:49:35
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> I know you have said before but I don't remember for sure...

 CarlCravens 2006-01-08 04:49:14
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> To answer Tim's question...

 Mitchw 2006-01-08 04:34:17
84 Technically the scale goes on to infinity on either end, but there's only real adjectives for 9 of the levels (unless you count Legenedary +6 as a real adjective)

So I don't believe you're really rolling off the scale so much as you are just rolling ab

 DavidJaquith 2006-01-07 19:44:16
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Savage Worlds only has 5 trait levels (D4, D6, D8, D10, D12) but I don't see anyone complaining that it is too narrow.

 Mitchw 2006-01-07 07:02:40

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