At 09:34 AM 9/7/99 -0500, Carl D Cravens wrote: >On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Steve Barr wrote: > >> Are you referring to WW-style gaming? I don't know much about that; >> it never appealed to me. > >No, I'm just referring to the fact that some people prefer a game where >not only do their characters not always win, but sometimes their >characters have to face personal disasters and overwhelming problems. > Speaking as one of those, yes, this can be tons of fun! I don't like futile games. In fact, I loathe a game where there is no way I can feel good about the outcome. But I do love a game where my character has to grow, and sometimes is quite miserable on the way there. For example -- an Amber game I play in. My character fell for another PC. She carried a torch for him for years, which became obvious to everyone *but* the PC. He finally found out... when she stupidly offered to shapeshift into the form of his dead girlfriend, and let him place the dead girl's soul in her body, effectively killing her and giving herself over to the dead girl. Yes, Adrienne is *not* always sensible. The scenes that followed were a blast to play through. Some wonderful soul searching scenes, and the year of play (well, 10 sessions or so) since has been great. Both PCs have grown extensively after this, and continue to grow. We are watching them skirt around finally, perhaps, becoming friends. Jerrym has finally learned how to read people, after finding out what he'd missed realizing about Adri, and has also learned how to use subterfuge in interperesonal relationships. And Adri has learned quite a bit more about responsibility and reality. Its been difficult for the characters, but fun for me. Like reading a good tragedy instead of a comedy. The heros have flaws, and difficulties... but in the end, they will triumph. *smile* D. +-------------------------------------------------+ | Deb Allen (Atwood?) / D-Singer / Tryslora | | d-singer@albany.net / deb_allen@fac.com | | http://www.albany.net/~d-singer | +-------------------------------------------------+ | The Black Road -- an Amber DRPG Convention | | http://www.theblackroad.org | +-------------------------------------------------+ | "You must never run from anything immortal. It | | attracts their attention." | | - _The_Last_Unicorn_ | +-------------------------------------------------+ ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/ Tech support questions go to support@phoenyx.net.
At 21:30 07/09/99 -0500, you wrote: >At 09:34 AM 9/7/99 -0500, Carl D Cravens wrote: >>On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Steve Barr wrote: >> >>> Are you referring to WW-style gaming? I don't know much about that; >>> it never appealed to me. >>No, I'm just referring to the fact that some people prefer a game where >>not only do their characters not always win, but sometimes their >>characters have to face personal disasters and overwhelming problems. >Speaking as one of those, yes, this can be tons of fun!> >Its been difficult for the characters, but fun for me. Like reading a good >tragedy instead of a comedy. The heros have flaws, and difficulties... but >in the end, they will triumph. *smile* I think the objection some people have to WW games (especially Vampire and Wraith, and maybe Werewolf) is that they are rather too much like tragedies - the heros have flaws and difficulties and in the end they will suffer and die horribly. >D. love Anna *************************** Anna Simpson **************************** Soon there would never be moonlight again. Theirs was the last great riding, and the best; eighty lances against the Corbie's Nest. ******************* http://www.moglit.demon.co.uk ******************* ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/ Tech support questions go to support@phoenyx.net.
sjohn@io.com wrote: > > Actually, my own occasional objections to WW games are almost _exactly_ the > opposite of that :) But that just goes to show how much perceptions of a > game can differ. For me, games are toolkits - you can do anything you want with them. If people want to run around playing uberpowerful somethings with big guns and whatever, then they can - there are few games where this is impossible. On the other hand, blaming the game for the player behavior is goofy. :-) Playing out tragedies can be fun, or playing out heroic epics. It's all choice, and I don't see the WW is more likely to encourage one over the other than any other game. -- Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@teleport.com | cam#9309026 Listowner: Fading Suns, Trinity and Aberrant "Balance is nothing, story is everything. Obey your ST." http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/ Tech support questions go to support@phoenyx.net.
| For me, games are toolkits - you can do anything you want with them. Since that's true of literally any object (game, book, or otherwise) a person can own, it's kind of a non-point. | people want to run around playing uberpowerful somethings with big guns | and whatever, then they can - there are few games where this is | impossible. That's not even close to what I was referring to. | On the other hand, blaming the game for the player behavior is goofy. | :-) Which is, of course, why I have done no such thing. || S. John Ross || Husband · Cook · Writer || In That Order || http://www.io.com/~sjohn/blue.htm · sjohn@io.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/ Tech support questions go to support@phoenyx.net.
At 14:47 08/09/99 -0500, you wrote: >| I think the objection some people have to WW games (especially Vampire and >| Wraith, and maybe Werewolf) is that they are rather too much like tragedies >| - the heros have flaws and difficulties and in the end they will suffer and >| die horribly. > >Actually, my own occasional objections to WW games are almost _exactly_ the >opposite of that :) But that just goes to show how much perceptions of a >game can differ. It's only if you stick to the letter of the rules for Humanity and er...that other thing that Wraiths have. Angst? But if you ignore the rules then the whole thing can turn into a bit of a bloodbath. Of course, it can turn into a blood bath anyway, but you tend to lose a lot of characters :-) >|| S. John Ross >|| Husband Cook Writer love Anna *************************** Anna Simpson **************************** Soon there would never be moonlight again. Theirs was the last great riding, and the best; eighty lances against the Corbie's Nest. ******************* http://www.moglit.demon.co.uk ******************* ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/ Tech support questions go to support@phoenyx.net.
------ | >Actually, my own occasional objections to WW games are almost _exactly_ the | >opposite of that :) But that just goes to show how much perceptions of a | >game can differ. | | It's only if you stick to the letter of the rules for Humanity and | er...that other thing that Wraiths have. Angst? But if you ignore the | rules then the whole thing can turn into a bit of a bloodbath. Of course, | it can turn into a blood bath anyway, but you tend to lose a lot of | characters :-) Oh, absolutely. I was referring more to the basic style of the games and the internal "ethos" than any particular approach to play. || S. John Ross || Husband · Cook · Writer || In That Order || http://www.io.com/~sjohn/blue.htm · sjohn@io.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/ Tech support questions go to support@phoenyx.net.
Anna wrote... >It's only if you stick to the letter of the rules for Humanity and >er...that other thing that Wraiths have. Angst? But if you ignore the >rules then the whole thing can turn into a bit of a bloodbath. Of course, >it can turn into a blood bath anyway, but you tend to lose a lot of >characters :-) > Not always... I mean, you don't have to stick to the letter of the rules for Humanity in order to keep it from being a bloodbath. As always, its not usually the system's fault -- it depends upon the players and the gamemaster. I cheerfully ignored Humanity. Oh, all the Vampires had it. But the way the rules were written, it was *too* strict. So I imposed rules upon them that had more to do with society. And magic (like Excalibur, which could only be wielded by Arthur because he was "pure" (ie, Humanity of 10)). I didn't even consider all mortals as having a humanity of 10. I used it as a sort of scale, bt my game was grey... and one transgression didn't drop the humanity score. Rather, it caused trouble for the character in realistic ways in his society. *smile* My game wasn't a blood bath. And while we did play with a lot of power, it wasn't power gaming. and they didn't treat te humans as cattle -- hells, it was a game with Mages and Weres and Vampires all mixed together and they learned to deal with each other and use each other and develop their own version of society. I'm going to get nostalgic soon. *smile* But anyway, my point is, it depends on the players. If the players want a blood bath style of game, the system doesn't matter. If they want an angsty game with plenty of grey areas of life and all kinds of moral dilemmas, then again, the system doesn't matter. What I liked about WW was that it was *so* easy to gradually pull it to diceless. D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/ Tech support questions go to support@phoenyx.net.
| I think the objection some people have to WW games (especially Vampire and | Wraith, and maybe Werewolf) is that they are rather too much like tragedies | - the heros have flaws and difficulties and in the end they will suffer and | die horribly. Actually, my own occasional objections to WW games are almost _exactly_ the opposite of that :) But that just goes to show how much perceptions of a game can differ. || S. John Ross || Husband · Cook · Writer || In That Order || http://www.io.com/~sjohn/blue.htm · sjohn@io.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/ Tech support questions go to support@phoenyx.net.
