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AndrewShiel
Andrew Shiel

Mon

Feb 21
2000

13:08Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

[AD&D 2E]

For a plot point, I need a PC to cast a Dispel Magic in a particular room.

(To cut a long explanation short,
 it will destroy a magical simulacrum
 which the character is... fond of.
 The simulacrum is tied to one room, at the top of a tower.
 However, simulacrum is getting in the way of the plot, and must go. 
 PC angst is an added bonus.)

Any suggestions on how I can persuade the PC to cast Dispel Magic there?
Especially when she knows what this will do to the simulacrum?

Drew.

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DOc
Darth Stomper

Mon

Feb 21
2000

23:32Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Shiel" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 7:08 AM
Subject: GM: How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?


> [AD&D 2E]
>
> For a plot point, I need a PC to cast a Dispel Magic in a particular room.
>
> (To cut a long explanation short,
>  it will destroy a magical simulacrum
>  which the character is... fond of.
>  The simulacrum is tied to one room, at the top of a tower.
>  However, simulacrum is getting in the way of the plot, and must go.
>  PC angst is an added bonus.)
>
> Any suggestions on how I can persuade the PC to cast Dispel Magic there?
> Especially when she knows what this will do to the simulacrum?

Well...aside from convincing her it's in her best interests, you don't have
much in the way of options.  (And I can't give too many suggestions on how
to manage the "best interests" part without knowing more of the situation,
really, but I'm sure you can come up with something if need be...)

Trying to get a specific PC to undertake specific actions under specific
circumstances is one of my primary definitions of futility, really.  Players
don't like to be railroaded, and will (consciously or otherwise) come up
with exceedingly inventive ways of circumventing such situations.  (As if
you haven't noticed by now;  I strongly suspect this is the root cause of
your problem to begin with...)  It's best you find another way to dispose of
the problematic simulacrum;  your preferred method is probably doomed to
failure.

   ---Doc---
GURPS fan - GMAST-L Old One (once banished)
Philosopher - Alternate Historian - General Crank
email: bravado@mindspring.com
web: http://www.mindspring.com//~bravado

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ChrisTutty
Chris Tutty

Tue

Feb 22
2000

00:23Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

From: Doc 
>Trying to get a specific PC to undertake specific actions under specific
>circumstances is one of my primary definitions of futility, really.
Players
>don't like to be railroaded, and will (consciously or otherwise) come up
>with exceedingly inventive ways of circumventing such situations.
>
Or, alternatively, will hate you forever.

I'd agree with Doc that if you're going to kill part of a character's world
it's better to just be a GM and do it than to trick the character into doing
your dirty work.  If the destruction is arranged properly the potential for
angst is just as high.  Possibly the simulacrum sacrifices itself?

I don't know enough about the nature of the creature you're talking about to
provide details, but could the character be attacked in such a way that the
death of the simulacrum was unavoidable?  The player will then still hate
you, but will hate you in your persona as the evil whatsit who forced her to
kill her beloved whatever - which is fine and dandy   :-)

Chris.

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AndrewShiel
Andrew Shiel

Tue

Feb 22
2000

08:47Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

At 05:32 PM 2/21/2000 cst, you wrote:
>Well...aside from convincing her it's in her best interests, you don't have
>much in the way of options.  (And I can't give too many suggestions on how
>to manage the "best interests" part without knowing more of the situation,
>really, but I'm sure you can come up with something if need be...)

 There are several NPCs working hard on the convincing aspect. :)

>Trying to get a specific PC to undertake specific actions under specific
>circumstances is one of my primary definitions of futility, really.  Players
>don't like to be railroaded, and will (consciously or otherwise) come up
>with exceedingly inventive ways of circumventing such situations.  (As if
>you haven't noticed by now;  I strongly suspect this is the root cause of
>your problem to begin with...)  It's best you find another way to dispose of
>the problematic simulacrum;  your preferred method is probably doomed to
>failure.

 I haven't tried to make it happen yet;
 it's an ideal situation which probably won't happen as written ANYway.

 But thanks for the input.

 Drew.

Andrew Shiel, Senior Webmaster, IONA Technologies.
http://www.iona.com/  ----------------------------
andrew.shiel@iona.com  ---------------------------
Tel +353-1-637-2412  -----------------------------
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GMAST Home Page:  http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/

AndrewShiel
Andrew Shiel

Tue

Feb 22
2000

08:50Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

At 06:23 PM 2/21/2000 cst, you wrote:

>Or, alternatively, will hate you forever.

 *grin* This, while interesting, is not ideal...

>I'd agree with Doc that if you're going to kill part of a character's world
>it's better to just be a GM and do it than to trick the character into doing
>your dirty work.  If the destruction is arranged properly the potential for
>angst is just as high.  Possibly the simulacrum sacrifices itself?

 That's worth considering, alright.
 There are several possible reasons I could apply to that.

>I don't know enough about the nature of the creature you're talking about to
>provide details, but could the character be attacked in such a way that the
>death of the simulacrum was unavoidable?  The player will then still hate
>you, but will hate you in your persona as the evil whatsit who forced her to
>kill her beloved whatever - which is fine and dandy   :-)

 Granted.

 I have one or two NPCs who'd be only too happy.

 Thanks,
 Drew.

Andrew Shiel, Senior Webmaster, IONA Technologies.
http://www.iona.com/  ----------------------------
andrew.shiel@iona.com  ---------------------------
Tel +353-1-637-2412  -----------------------------
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BiNg
bing

Fri

Feb 25
2000

05:36Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

> For a plot point, I need a PC to cast a Dispel Magic in a particular room.
> 
> (To cut a long explanation short,
>  it will destroy a magical simulacrum
>  which the character is... fond of.
>  The simulacrum is tied to one room, at the top of a tower.
>  However, simulacrum is getting in the way of the plot, and must go. 
>  PC angst is an added bonus.)
> 
> Any suggestions on how I can persuade the PC to cast Dispel Magic there?
> Especially when she knows what this will do to the simulacrum?

This is not really a solution to your problem, but this brings up 
a question about GMing technique.

The most obvious solution, it seems to me, is to pull the *player* 
aside and explain that the simulacrum needs to be destroyed as a 
story element, and request the player's cooperation. The player might 
not like it, but OTOH you *are* the GM and you have the authority to 
make fiat decisions. You already enforce a plot, and you are willing 
to arrange things to make a particular outcome inevitable. You 
certainly have the right to put the PCs in life-threatening 
situations, possibly even getting their characters killed. You have 
the right to overrule their decisions and actions in some cases, and 
to dictate the actions of all NPCs. That is a lot of authority and 
control, and the players trust you with it.

So why can't you just tell the player, "the simulacrum needs to be 
destroyed, and I want you to help me arrange it"? Essentially you'd 
be inviting the player to function as a co-GM for this situation, 
taking an active part in moving the game forward instead of just 
sitting back and making you do all the work.

Now, I haven't done this in my games, but I can see where it would be 
a very useful technique. Has anyone else done this? Does it seem like 
a reasonable solution?

There is an interesting series of articles by Christopher Kubasik on 
http://www.rpg.net/oracle/essays/gamesatplay.html entitled "The 
Interactive Toolkit" which suggests cooperation at this level. I'd 
love to hear what others think of this approach, as it is quite 
different from the traditional RPG model. I'm not sure I'd want to 
take it quite to that level, but maybe some ideas could be stolen. 
:-)

Mike

----------------------------------------------------------------------
bing@iccom.com  (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu)       Mike Harvey
HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html       Beaverton, Oregon
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GMAST Home Page:  http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/

CharltonWilbur
Charlton Wilbur

Fri

Feb 25
2000

16:16Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

bing@iccom.com writes:

> > Any suggestions on how I can persuade the PC to cast Dispel Magic there?
> > Especially when she knows what this will do to the simulacrum?

> The most obvious solution, it seems to me, is to pull the *player* 
> aside and explain that the simulacrum needs to be destroyed as a 
> story element, and request the player's cooperation. The player might 
> not like it, but OTOH you *are* the GM and you have the authority to 
> make fiat decisions. You already enforce a plot, and you are willing 
> to arrange things to make a particular outcome inevitable. You 
> certainly have the right to put the PCs in life-threatening 
> situations, possibly even getting their characters killed. You have 
> the right to overrule their decisions and actions in some cases, and 
> to dictate the actions of all NPCs. That is a lot of authority and 
> control, and the players trust you with it.

The only problem with this approach - the GM *does* have the authority
to make fiat decisions, but if the players aren't happy with the
decisions they'll walk away from the game.  If I had a GM consistently
overruling my in-character actions or decisions, that GM wouldn't
remain my GM for long.  

There are a couple different approaches to GMing.  There's a more
authoritarian one, that you seem to be espousing: the GM has the right
to do whatever he wants, and the players can lump it or leave.  In
some places this is appropriate even when the whole campaign is less
authoritarian - the obvious place is at the beginning of the campaign,
where the GM really has to say "okay, you are all in this place for
this reason" or nothing will ever happen.

The approach I take is less authoritarian, though.  I'm not as
interested in telling stories as I am in putting interesting
characters in interesting situations and seeing what happens.  

> So why can't you just tell the player, "the simulacrum needs to be 
> destroyed, and I want you to help me arrange it"? 

A lot of the success or failure of this approach depends on *why* the
simulacrum needs to be destroyed.  If the answer is "I can't think of
problems that challenge you with the simulacrum," that leads to one
set of possible solutions.  If the answer is "because it gives you two
characters, and that makes you twice as important as the other
players," that's a very different set of solutions. 

I think my only real objections to a player playing a character *and*
a simulacrum would be that the player then gets twice as much screen
time, and that the difference between the two characters is blurred in
the eyes of the other players.  If it became enough of a problem in my
game, I'd talk with the player, explain *why* I objected to the
simulacrum, and offer a couple solutions: the simulacrum develops a
love interest and is written out of the plot, the simulacrum dies, the
original character dies and the player goes on playing the simulacrum,
another character dies and that player takes the simulacrum's role.
But a lot of the success or failure of any approach is going to come
down to articulating why you want the simulacrum gone. 

> There is an interesting series of articles by Christopher Kubasik on 
> http://www.rpg.net/oracle/essays/gamesatplay.html entitled "The 
> Interactive Toolkit" which suggests cooperation at this level. I'd 
> love to hear what others think of this approach, as it is quite 
> different from the traditional RPG model. I'm not sure I'd want to 
> take it quite to that level, but maybe some ideas could be stolen. 

I much prefer a more cooperative approach, both as a player and as a
GM.  I've had GMs before who basically scripted adventures and
couldn't handle it when the characters did things they didn't expect.
In one case it got nasty, because the GM was trying to write the Great
American Fantasy Novel and the players had different ideas of what the
characters were like.  Rather than balancing things and compromising,
he insisted on his GM right to fiat until the players left, one by one. 

That might account very neatly for my aversion to "GM fiat" approaches
to solving problems like this one.  To be sure, you *can* say "I'm the
GM, and I say the simulacrum dies."  But doing that, it seems, will
alienate one player and possibly annoy the others.  If you instead say
"I think the simulacrum is causing these problems in the game, and we
need to figure out something to do about them," - then, you've opened
the doors to player suggestions.  The real goal isn't to destroy the
simulacrum; the real goal is to solve the problems the presence of the
simulacrum is causing.

Charlton

-- 
                          |  O winter wind, when wilt thou blow
Charlton Wilbur           |  That the sweet rain down may rain?
cwilbur@polar.bowdoin.edu |  Christ! that my love were in my arms
                          |  And I in my bed again.  --Anon


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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Fri

Feb 25
2000

18:04Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 bing@iccom.com wrote:

> but OTOH you *are* the GM and you have the authority to 
> make fiat decisions. You already enforce a plot, and you are willing 
> to arrange things to make a particular outcome inevitable.

> You have the right to overrule their decisions and actions in some
> cases,

I strongly disagree.  The PC's aren't mine, and while I may suggest that a
player rethink a course of action if I think they're playing
out-of-character or are doing something really stupid, but I'd *never*
over-rule a player's decision.  The PC is his, he can do whatever he wants
within the context of the game, provided he's willing to deal with the
in-game consequences.

A gamemaster that ramrods a plot down the players' throats regardless of
what the PC's do, to the point of arbitrarily limiting or changing PC's
actions, isn't, IMO, a very good GM.  

> So why can't you just tell the player, "the simulacrum needs to be 
> destroyed, and I want you to help me arrange it"? Essentially you'd 
> be inviting the player to function as a co-GM for this situation, 
> taking an active part in moving the game forward instead of just 
> sitting back and making you do all the work.

Which is rather different than the attitude you expressed above and one
I'm much more open to. 
 
> There is an interesting series of articles by Christopher Kubasik on 
> http://www.rpg.net/oracle/essays/gamesatplay.html entitled "The 
> Interactive Toolkit" which suggests cooperation at this level. I'd 

Chris never suggests that the GM control the PC's, jerk the players
around, or railroad a plot down the player's throats.  

Chris's articles strongly mirror my own gaming style.  I try to
communicate with the players to achive a end-result based on cooperation
on developing the plot.  

--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)
I was internet when internet wasn't cool.

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CharltonWilbur
Charlton Wilbur

Fri

Feb 25
2000

19:54Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

Carl D Cravens writes:

> On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 bing@iccom.com wrote:

> > You have the right to overrule their decisions and actions in some
> > cases,
> 
> I strongly disagree.  The PC's aren't mine, and while I may suggest that a
> player rethink a course of action if I think they're playing
> out-of-character or are doing something really stupid, but I'd *never*
> over-rule a player's decision.  The PC is his, he can do whatever he wants
> within the context of the game, provided he's willing to deal with the
> in-game consequences.

Though I mostly agree with you, Carl, there are times when I would
overrule a player's action - but I can't think of one where it doesn't
involve some sort of influence external to the character or some sort
of altered perception on the character's part.  Nit-picking on my part. :)

> Chris's articles strongly mirror my own gaming style.  I try to
> communicate with the players to achive a end-result based on cooperation
> on developing the plot.  

I'm not sure that "plot" is an especially useful concept in gaming; it
seems to lead to the notion that characters are to be led through a
foreordained series of events, pausing now and then to fight or to
interact with an NPC.  What I find far more useful is to work out
what's going on around the characters - there's a dragon here, there's
a peaceful (for orcs) village of orcs here, there's an old elven ruin
here.  What the characters choose to do and how things react to them
results in the story - it's not something I plan out ahead of time,
except to predict a couple possible things that might happen based on
my knowledge of the characters.

I think this is one of the huge differences between RPGs and the other
art forms they're constantly being compared to: the kind of
approach towards the story that makes Tolkien such a wonderful author
doesn't work in RPGs.  I think a better metaphor is the television
sitcom: you have this set of characters, in this situation, and you
have to provide them with situations that will prove entertaining for
some length of time.  Star Trek: The Next Generation was an excellent
model: every week the characters had an adventure; there were hints of
other stuff going on, and a few large-scale plots hinted at, but no
Big Story Arc like in Babylon 5 or later episodes of Deep Space Nine. 

Charlton

-- 
                          |  O winter wind, when wilt thou blow
Charlton Wilbur           |  That the sweet rain down may rain?
cwilbur@polar.bowdoin.edu |  Christ! that my love were in my arms
                          |  And I in my bed again.  --Anon


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JohnPriceJones
John P. Jones

Fri

Feb 25
2000

20:31Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

> 
> I think this is one of the huge differences between RPGs and the other
> art forms they're constantly being compared to: the kind of
> approach towards the story that makes Tolkien such a wonderful author
> doesn't work in RPGs.  I think a better metaphor is the television
> sitcom: you have this set of characters, in this situation, and you
> have to provide them with situations that will prove entertaining for
> some length of time.  Star Trek: The Next Generation was an excellent
> model: every week the characters had an adventure; there were hints of
> other stuff going on, and a few large-scale plots hinted at, but no
> Big Story Arc like in Babylon 5 or later episodes of Deep Space Nine.
>
> Charlton
>

But that overarching plot, the long term goals, relationships with outside
forces, the evolution -- that's what made DS9 and B5 so great to watch and
get involved with.  I much prefer an ongoing campaign as a player and gm and
as a viewer, to a episodic structured designed primarily to maintain the
status quo.

While prepared adventures can be a good resource, the best GMs who use them
will find a way to adapt them to their campaign.

One thing that the TV model suggests that too infrequently in a RPG is the
idea of subplots.  A lot of this depends upon the players, but it is
something GMs need to try to foster as well.  The real fun is when a
character's interests in two parallel plotlines conflict with each other.

In my experience, if one single thing can add volumes to the enjoyment value
of a game, it's the use of a really well developed villain, a nemesis for
players.  the real problem with episodic structure is that the enemies are
always different, and the players have no time to develop an interesting
relationship with their opposite number.

-jpj



***********************************************
The correct detail is rarely exactly what
happened; the most truthful detail is what
could have happened, or what should have.
            -John Irving
************************************************
jjones@twsuvm.uc.twsu.edu

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CharltonWilbur
Charlton Wilbur

Fri

Feb 25
2000

21:37Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

John P. Jones writes:

> But that overarching plot, the long term goals, relationships with outside
> forces, the evolution -- that's what made DS9 and B5 so great to watch and
> get involved with.  I much prefer an ongoing campaign as a player and gm and
> as a viewer, to a episodic structured designed primarily to maintain the
> status quo.

Oh yes - the overarching preplanned plot works wonderfullly in media
where the author gets to control all the characters and all the
universe.  But to use Babylon 5 as an example.... what if JMS didn't
have control over his characters, and Delenn had decided that becoming
half-human was too risky?  Or what if she had decided to become
Empress of All Minbar instead of forming a new Grey Council?  Then his
beautiful pre-planned overarching story arc would have fallen to bits.
I'm not saying that long term goals and ongoing relationships with the
outside world are a bad thing.

I think I misstated myself somewhat.  Think of the original TNG, where
there was a rough status quo but the characters did gradually change
and develop.  Or perhaps a better example would be something like The
Practice or LA Law, where the action is about half episodic and about
half ongoing plot lines.  I'd be surprised if the writers for LA Law
had an extensive plan for where the series were going to go; I
suspect, instead, that they planned a couple episodes at a time, at
most, and put their characters into interesting situations to see what
would happen. 

It's also very difficult to maintain a status quo in a realistic game
world, unless you're working with Traveller or the like, where the
characters can just flit off to the next star system.  In more
realistic games, the characters become famous or infamous, the
brothers and uncles of the villains they defeated come back to bother
them, and as they amass power they become more and more of a target.

I'm not advocating the status-quo nature of sitcoms as a Good Thing, I
guess is what I'm getting at.  But I am advocating the sitcom-writer's
job as a good model for what GMs do: you take a bunch of characters,
with some backstory and some relationships.  You think of a situation
that would be dramatic, or tense, or funny, and you give them things
to interact with that wind up putting them in that situation.  The
events of the plot (and I think this might be the most important part)
are less important than the situations they're in and their reactions
to them - if you take care of those, the plot looks after itself.
Perhaps you draw in elements from their backstory, or perhaps you
introduce something new and significant to their backstory.  But you
aren't planning the whole series out from start to finish.

> One thing that the TV model suggests that too infrequently in a RPG is the
> idea of subplots.  A lot of this depends upon the players, but it is
> something GMs need to try to foster as well.  The real fun is when a
> character's interests in two parallel plotlines conflict with each other.

I ran an extensive Vampire campaign this way - I knew who the main
NPCs were, I knew what they wanted and what would happen if the PCs
didn't meddle.  Every other session or so I would introduce a new
thread.  It was one of the easiest games I ever ran, once it got off
the ground: I knew what about 15 major NPCs were doing, and I kept
track of their plans.  When the PCs interacted with one of the NPC's
plans, directly or indirectly, I changed the NPCs' plans accordingly.
After a while I wasn't running the game so much as reacting to what
the PCs did.  

That game had a very "real" feel, mainly because encounters were
intentionally *not* balanced, because (as in real life) the ends of
the stories were often left hanging, and because rather than dealing
with good and evil, the characters were dealing with expedient,
self-interested, or destructive in the long term.  The intentional
imbalance added an edge to the game, too: characters who found
themselves in combat were never sure if they were going to mop the
floor with a few human assistants or get creamed by taking on a 5th
generation elder Brujah with backup firepower.

> In my experience, if one single thing can add volumes to the enjoyment value
> of a game, it's the use of a really well developed villain, a nemesis for
> players.  the real problem with episodic structure is that the enemies are
> always different, and the players have no time to develop an interesting
> relationship with their opposite number.

Or, as in the Vampire game, where the villains were not cut-and-dried:
the Brujah elder, the "bad guy," who's the only one with the power to
keep the Sabbat out of the city; the Ventrue Prince, the "good guy,"
who owes so much to so many people that she's too busy repaying favors
to do anything about much else; the Brujah elder's brother, who's
looking for any weakness so that he can step in and take power -
unless his brother wants it.  It was a nasty, complicated situation,
and there were no truly good guys.  In the end, they wound up putting
the Brujah elder on the throne, because it was his condition for
unleashing his power, but they didn't feel good about it - he was the
least of several evils.  

It was a very good game, but when it was over we played some
angst-free blood and thunder fantasy where all the good guys wore
shiny plate armor or white robes.

Charlton

-- 
                          |  O winter wind, when wilt thou blow
Charlton Wilbur           |  That the sweet rain down may rain?
cwilbur@polar.bowdoin.edu |  Christ! that my love were in my arms
                          |  And I in my bed again.  --Anon


----------------------------------------------------------------
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ChrisTutty
Chris Tutty

Sat

Feb 26
2000

03:56Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

From: Charlton Wilbur 
>That game had a very "real" feel, mainly because encounters were
>intentionally *not* balanced, because (as in real life) the ends of
>the stories were often left hanging, and because rather than dealing
>with good and evil, the characters were dealing with expedient,
>self-interested, or destructive in the long term.
>
I found something similar with a campaign I ran for many years.  One
of the basic understandings was that the dice made many decisions - I
didn't design encounters to fit the party.  Part of this was purely
pragmatic in that the party size could be anything from four to ten
people but it also gave that sense of reality that you speak of.

I still recall a session with a new player when the party sighted the
campaign's first (and only) beholder coming along a ridge-line above a
mountain trail (I always gave the players first sight of a tough
random monster).  The experienced players turned and ran as one.  The
new player's reaction was "Come on guys, it can't be a beholder -
we're not tough enough".  Two or three players _shouted_ "This is the
real world - HIDE!".  He hid, the beholder floated downhill past their
huddling forms and the party continued into town to boast of their
brush with death.

I often wondered about the level of randomness in the campaign, but
time and time again I'd hear new players introduced by more
experienced friends with "Don't assume you can fight everything you
see - this is real"and I'm convinced that it was the constant threat
of the unknown that gave the campaign an edge I could never have
deliberately written in.

By the same token, the fact that some story lines simply went away
helped the players feel a sense of freedom - they weren't there to
save the world, they were free to retire to a shop in town, buy a pub,
walk away to a new adventure.  This meant that I didn't have to tie
them into things.  They were more likely to finish what they started
because they were there for reasons that made sense to each character
individually.

Chris.

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ChrisTutty
Chris Tutty

Sat

Feb 26
2000

04:08Z

How to get a PC to cast Dispel Magic?

From: John P. Jones 
>In my experience, if one single thing can add volumes to the
enjoyment value
>of a game, it's the use of a really well developed villain, a nemesis
for
>players.
>
Whole-heartedly agree on this one.  A villain killed at the end of an
adventure is often simply associated with that scenario - as if they
had never existed outside of it.  On the other hand, a villain who
exists in the fringes over time - stealing a magic item perhaps, being
thwarted here and there, escaping while the henchmen die - is the
villain the the players develop a personal feeling for.

_That's_ the villain they'll hunt down not because they need the loot,
or it's the way the scenario finishes, but because they are sick of
seeing his or her handiwork littering the world their characters live
in.

After a couple of villains escaped by good luck I started building
escape routes into every hideout and stronghold. After all, it makes
good sense to plan to survive the death of this venture to build
again.  After a while this gave me the materials to have two old
enemies team up to wipe out the party who had destroyed their plans so
often.  It took three days to fight the battles out, but it gave a
real sense of 'coming of age' to a party which had been not quite
strong enough to beat these enemies for five years of game time (and
around three years real time).

Chris.


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