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TarlGrenier
Tarl Grenier

Sun

Apr 30
2000

17:58Z

Getting Players to Post

Hello Everyone,

I am having difficult getting half of my group to post seems almost as if 
they have vanished. Need advice, Thanks.

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BeeStie
Beestie

Mon

May 1
2000

01:57Z

Getting Players to Post

Lurk mode OFF...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tarl Grenier" 

> Hello Everyone,
> I am having difficult getting half of my group to post seems almost as if 
> they have vanished. Need advice, Thanks.

    Unfortunately, that is the breaks of PBeM 
gaming.  You don't hear from one for weeks, 
then all of a sudden you get an eMail that 
says, "Sorry, I can't play any more."  (Shrug)  
I keep adding new players whenever I can 
so they roll over quickly to replace older 
ones who disappear.

    Tim "Beestie" Baer
    http://aeropaeia.tripod.com

... "Please send more adventurers.  The last ones were delicious."

Lurk Mode ON...

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Thom
Thom

Mon

May 1
2000

05:22Z

Getting Players to Post

>> Hello Everyone,
>> I am having difficult getting half of my group to post seems almost as if 
>> they have vanished. Need advice, Thanks.
>
>    Unfortunately, that is the breaks of PBeM 
>gaming.  You don't hear from one for weeks, 
>then all of a sudden you get an eMail that 
>says, "Sorry, I can't play any more."  (Shrug)  
>I keep adding new players whenever I can 
>so they roll over quickly to replace older 
>ones who disappear.
>

I agree with Tim on this one.  One solution that seems
to work is become a storyteller, and therefore PC's who
don't "post" actions get whatever the GM decides.  Of
course, you have to find players who are willing to give
up a little direct control...

Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want 
to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far 
as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game 
once for several months, and the ship never made it out 
of the starbase!

                --Thom

Hey, my first GMAST post in several months!
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ThomasEMorris
Thomas E Morris

Mon

May 1
2000

12:30Z

Getting Players to Post

A different animal, but I believe a better one;  Try downloading mIRC and
run real time chat games once every week or two.  It's very close to a ftf
game and the software has character generation, dice rolling and
other stuff built right into it.  I've tried pbem and just thought it was
tedious but if you can get 4 or more people involved in a chat game- I think
you'll be pleased (and I'd be interested in playing!).

Have fun,
Tom
Temorris@pacbell.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thom" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 5:22 AM
Subject: Re: GM: Getting Players to Post


> >> Hello Everyone,
> >> I am having difficult getting half of my group to post seems almost as
if
> >> they have vanished. Need advice, Thanks.
> >
> >    Unfortunately, that is the breaks of PBeM
> >gaming.  You don't hear from one for weeks,
> >then all of a sudden you get an eMail that
> >says, "Sorry, I can't play any more."  (Shrug)
> >I keep adding new players whenever I can
> >so they roll over quickly to replace older
> >ones who disappear.
> >
>
> I agree with Tim on this one.  One solution that seems
> to work is become a storyteller, and therefore PC's who
> don't "post" actions get whatever the GM decides.  Of
> course, you have to find players who are willing to give
> up a little direct control...
>
> Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want
> to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far
> as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game
> once for several months, and the ship never made it out
> of the starbase!
>
>                 --Thom
>
> Hey, my first GMAST post in several months!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> GMAST Home Page:  http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/


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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Mon

May 1
2000

14:16Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Thomas E Morris wrote:

> A different animal, but I believe a better one;  Try downloading mIRC and
> run real time chat games once every week or two.  It's very close to a ftf
> game and the software has character generation, dice rolling and
> other stuff built right into it.  I've tried pbem and just thought it was
> tedious but if you can get 4 or more people involved in a chat game- I think
> you'll be pleased (and I'd be interested in playing!).

Many people consider PBeM to be superior to IRC or even FTF roleplaying.  
It's a different critter, and it has its strengths over both IRC and FTF.  
Timelag is both its strength and weakness... while lag slows the game, it
at the same time gives players and GM more time to think about actions,
reactions, plot and dialog.  A good PBeM game reads much like a novel of
sorts.  IRC doesn't work at all for the slow thinker or slow typist... but
email works great for both. 

I still prefer FTF gaming, but I like PBeM quite a bit. 

--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                GMAST List Owner
Old immortals never die, they just... don't.

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WattErs10
watters.10

Mon

May 1
2000

19:50Z

Getting Players to Post

On 1 May 2000, at 9:16, Carl D Cravens wrote:

> On Mon, 1 May 2000, Thomas E Morris wrote:
> 
> > A different animal, but I believe a better one;  Try downloading mIRC and run
> > real time chat games once every week or two.  It's very close to a ftf game
> > and the software has character generation, dice rolling and other stuff built
> > right into it.  I've tried pbem and just thought it was tedious but if you
> > can get 4 or more people involved in a chat game- I think you'll be pleased
> > (and I'd be interested in playing!).
> 
> Many people consider PBeM to be superior to IRC or even FTF roleplaying.  It's
> a different critter, and it has its strengths over both IRC and FTF.  Timelag
> is both its strength and weakness... while lag slows the game, it at the same
> time gives players and GM more time to think about actions, reactions, plot and
> dialog.  A good PBeM game reads much like a novel of sorts.  IRC doesn't work
> at all for the slow thinker or slow typist... but email works great for both. 
> 
> I still prefer FTF gaming, but I like PBeM quite a bit. 

I agree with Carl here.  PBEM, FTF, PBIRC all are different, and of them, I 
prefer FTF, PBEM and PBIRC in that order.  BUT, sometimes the tools make the 
difference between playing and not playing.  

The Other GM had set up a game and managed to get everyone to commit to 
attending (including the fellow who now has 4 little girls under age 5 at 
home, so finding playing time is difficult, at best).  What happened?  I got 
sick.  I called Dee, the GM, and asked her to be logged into ICQ once the game 
got started.

I connected from home, and using chat I got to participate in the game.  It 
was a little surrealistic, since the other players took turns entering what 
was going on and reading my responses to the group.  Next time, we're going to 
try one of the "voice over net" and/or "video over net" systems to see what we 
end up with.




Coyt D. Watters
"The Internet, billions of electrons with nothing better to do."
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NoctIfer
Noctifer

Mon

May 1
2000

20:43Z

Getting Players to Post

> Whoa.  Are there _that_ many Star Trek PBEMs that never get out of
>  space dock?  I thought that the fun of Star Trek was the "explore
>  strange, new worlds, etc." stuff.  In these "don't get out of space
>  dock" games, what activities occur?  I presume that there are many
>  inter-personal discussions, and people figuring out how they'll work
>  with this new crew, but it seems like that can only go for so long.
>  Are there other plot elements introduced?  I'm just curious - I've
>  played in low-to-no plot movement games, so I'm interested to see
>  how other people have done this.

The introduction phase can take quite a while, with characters typically 
starting out at the end of their last assignment and finding out to where 
they've been transferred.  Following that comes a short story about their 
trip to the new assignment, which often includes meeting up with family 
members, etc.  This typically takes around two posts, as most GMs let the 
players go with this as they please.  Then they start moving their stuff onto 
the ship, introducing themselves to the crew and officers, etc.  Assuming all 
goes well, the ship should leave spacedock soon thereafter.

In my Exeter game, the first adventure was meant to take place before they 
left space dock.  To give you a bit of background, the story was set during 
the movies (known affectionately as TMS or The Movie Series...back before TNG 
made it to movies), soon after STIV.  The Exeter was an experimental vessel 
with a new warp drive type (using Trilithium instead of Dilithium...again, 
this was before First Contact came out).  As the crewmen were coming aboard 
and getting settled, someone sabotaged the new engines, killing a couple of 
engineers.  This lead to an investigation that most everyone was involved in, 
to some degree or another, and the crook was finally captured.

Unfortunately, PBEM games, particularly structured ones like Star Trek, can 
take a _long_ time to get through a scene.  If you figure your average 
tactics argument in an FTF game takes around 15 to 30 minutes, a PBEM, by its 
very nature, would take more like two weeks.  If you can get players who can 
post more than once or twice a day, and more or less at the same time, you 
can really get things moving along faster than that, but that's about what a 
PBEM GM should expect.

The key is to keep things moving along with other people while long 
conversations are being had, and keep on top of players to post.  That was 
one of the central problems when I ran the game.  Not enough for the other 
guys to do and allowing too much lag time for those who were involved.  Keep 
it to a minimum, and things should roll along quite nicely.

It'll never be as fast as FTF gaming, though.

Lucifer >:}

p.s. that first adventure took around a year to complete, and I played in 
another game for two years that didn't finish its first adventure by the time 
I left...

Lucifer >:}

--

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" --Milton, Paradise Lost, Bk. 1

Homepage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/index.html
Lucifer's DJ Webpage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/private/DJ/index.html
Lucifer's Vampire Webpage: 
http://members.aol.com/noctifer01/private/VampHome/index.html
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ReveNant
Revenant

Tue

May 2
2000

12:20Z

Getting Players to Post

Thomas E Morris wrote:
> A different animal, but I believe a better one;  Try downloading
> mIRC and run real time chat games once every week or two.

  You think this is better?  It would seem to suffer the weaknesses of
FtF (need to get everyone together at the same time, time constraints),
none of the benefits of PBEM (time to think, time to wax poetic - in
short time for more depth, and asynchronicity).

  It's essentially FtF limited to typing speed.  As far as I can see the
only real advantages are that 'getting together' is much easier and you
have a broader pool of available players.

-------------- Revenant [revenante@bigpond.com] -------------------
If I take a lamp and shine it towards the wall, a bright spot will
appear [...]. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding.
Too often we assume that the light on the wall is God, But the light
is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search. [...]
- G'kar, "Meditations on the Abyss" - Babylon 5.


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ThomasEMorris
Thomas E Morris

Tue

May 2
2000

13:31Z

Getting Players to Post

For me, yes, it is better.  YMMV.

I like the pacing.  It's much quicker than pbem and seems to keep players
interest from lagging.  Getting folks together for a "chat" twice a month or
so is much easier than gathering my group together (work & stuff interferes)
+ I have the opportunity to play with people across the world.  To aid in
the pacing I usually have a few options typed up prior to the game that add
flavor and explain some of the actions I know my character or npcs are going
to take- Then I cut & paste them in as needed.  I can also email private
notes, secret actions & maps as needed.

Have fun,
Tom
Temorris@pacbell.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Revenant" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: GM: Getting Players to Post


> Thomas E Morris wrote:
> > A different animal, but I believe a better one;  Try downloading
> > mIRC and run real time chat games once every week or two.
>
>   You think this is better?  It would seem to suffer the weaknesses of
> FtF (need to get everyone together at the same time, time constraints),
> none of the benefits of PBEM (time to think, time to wax poetic - in
> short time for more depth, and asynchronicity).
>
>   It's essentially FtF limited to typing speed.  As far as I can see the
> only real advantages are that 'getting together' is much easier and you
> have a broader pool of available players.
>
> -------------- Revenant [revenante@bigpond.com] -------------------
> If I take a lamp and shine it towards the wall, a bright spot will
> appear [...]. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding.
> Too often we assume that the light on the wall is God, But the light
> is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search. [...]
> - G'kar, "Meditations on the Abyss" - Babylon 5.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> GMAST Home Page:  http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/

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LlwAtts
LLWatts

Mon

May 1
2000

12:46Z

Getting Players to Post

> A different animal, but I believe a better one;  Try downloading mIRC and
>  run real time chat games once every week or two.  It's very close to a ftf
>  game and the software has character generation, dice rolling and
>  other stuff built right into it. 

Really? Which version of mIRC?  Mine doesn't have those features, but perhaps 
the gaming features are built into a server that hosts a lot of chat games?

Leah
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NoctIfer
Noctifer

Mon

May 1
2000

13:59Z

Getting Players to Post

> Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want 
>  to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far 
>  as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game 
>  once for several months, and the ship never made it out 
>  of the starbase!

Hey!  I had fun running that game!

Assuming, that is, this is the same Thom that played Lieutenant Pierre Buyoya 
in my old Exeter game...

In my defense, the first adventure took place before the ship left 
starbase...somebody sabotaged the engines, there was an explosion, and a 
subsequent explosion.  Yeah, I could'a tried to move things along more 
quickly than I did, but I didn't want to squelch anyone's role playing and, 
hell, it was my first time running a PBEM.

Lucifer >:}

--

"The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" --Milton, Paradise Lost, Bk. 1

Homepage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/index.html
Lucifer's DJ Webpage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/private/DJ/index.html
Lucifer's Vampire Webpage: 
http://members.aol.com/noctifer01/private/VampHome/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
GMAST Home Page:  http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/


MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Mon

May 1
2000

19:09Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000 Noctifer@aol.com wrote:

> From: Noctifer@aol.com
> 
> > Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want 
> >  to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far 
> >  as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game 
> >  once for several months, and the ship never made it out 
> >  of the starbase!
> 
> Hey!  I had fun running that game!
> 
> Assuming, that is, this is the same Thom that played Lieutenant Pierre Buyoya 
> in my old Exeter game...
> 
> In my defense, the first adventure took place before the ship left 
> starbase...somebody sabotaged the engines, there was an explosion, and a 
> subsequent explosion.  Yeah, I could'a tried to move things along more 
> quickly than I did, but I didn't want to squelch anyone's role playing and, 
> hell, it was my first time running a PBEM.

And here I thought he was talking about _Excalibur_, which also had the
ship be sabotaged (the computers), no explosions though (unless you count
the Captain/XO exchanges. . .).

Coincidentally, it was also *my* first time running a PBeM.

--
Michael Feldhusen
mike_f@io.com


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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Mon

May 1
2000

14:25Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000 LLWatts@aol.com wrote:

>> A different animal, but I believe a better one;  Try downloading mIRC and
>>  run real time chat games once every week or two.  It's very close to a ftf
>>  game and the software has character generation, dice rolling and
>>  other stuff built right into it. 
>
>Really? Which version of mIRC?  Mine doesn't have those features, but perhaps 
>the gaming features are built into a server that hosts a lot of chat games?

There are dice add-ons for mIRC, as well as dice-bots that run on any
server.

The Phoenyx' IRC server doesn't have anything built in, but we'll probably
switch to Shadowlands (http://www.shadowlands.org/forum/) shortly.  Not
that there's been that much interest in real-time stuff... mostly, that
gets used for socializing among the players rather than actual game play.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net



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ThomasEMorris
Thomas E Morris

Mon

May 1
2000

15:37Z

Getting Players to Post

I just tried to find the link but apparently it didn't make the transfer to
my new computer.  I believe the site was called the Stonedragon (or
something close) and they had both a DM's and Players version of mIRC as
well as a dicebot.  If I can dig it up I'll post the link, otherwise a web
search should find it.

Have fun,
Tom
Temorris@pacbell.net

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: GM: Getting Players to Post


> > A different animal, but I believe a better one;  Try downloading mIRC
and
> >  run real time chat games once every week or two.  It's very close to a
ftf
> >  game and the software has character generation, dice rolling and
> >  other stuff built right into it.
>
> Really? Which version of mIRC?  Mine doesn't have those features, but
perhaps
> the gaming features are built into a server that hosts a lot of chat
games?
>
> Leah


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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Mon

May 1
2000

15:55Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Thomas E Morris wrote:

TEM>I just tried to find the link but apparently it didn't make the transfer to
TEM>my new computer.  I believe the site was called the Stonedragon (or
TEM>something close) and they had both a DM's and Players version of mIRC as
TEM>well as a dicebot.  If I can dig it up I'll post the link, otherwise a web
TEM>search should find it.

There's a handy-dandy search available at the Phoenyx' IRC
page... http://www.phoenyx.net/irc.html .  It'll get you both mIRC add-ons
and bots.


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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Mon

May 1
2000

14:13Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Thom wrote:

> Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want 
> to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far 
> as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game 
> once for several months, and the ship never made it out 
> of the starbase!

Was that Feldhusen's Excalibur II?  It ran for over *two years* and the
ship never left stardock... but the players loved it.  There was plot and
it moved along, but it never moved quite the direction the GM expected,
which was eventually supposed to take them out of stardock. 

This is especially noticable among the Star Trek crowd... there are a lot
of "simmers" who don't know what "roleplaying" is.  They got into this
through Star Trek "sims" (simulations) without rules or character
sheets... the whole point was character interaction.  Pure roleplaying,
actually, but sometimes they clash with traditional roleplayers because
all they want to do is "talk". 

--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                GMAST List Owner
Windows isn't crippleware: it's Functionally Challenged.

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MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Mon

May 1
2000

18:43Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Thom wrote:

> From: Thom 
> 
> >> Hello Everyone,
> >> I am having difficult getting half of my group to post seems almost as if 
> >> they have vanished. Need advice, Thanks.
> >
> >    Unfortunately, that is the breaks of PBeM 
> >gaming.  You don't hear from one for weeks, 
> >then all of a sudden you get an eMail that 
> >says, "Sorry, I can't play any more."  (Shrug)  
> >I keep adding new players whenever I can 
> >so they roll over quickly to replace older 
> >ones who disappear.
> >
> 
> I agree with Tim on this one.  One solution that seems
> to work is become a storyteller, and therefore PC's who
> don't "post" actions get whatever the GM decides.  Of
> course, you have to find players who are willing to give
> up a little direct control...
> 
> Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want 
> to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far 
> as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game 
> once for several months, and the ship never made it out 
> of the starbase!

OK, who are you and what address did you use in _Excalibur_?

For those who don't know, I ran a PBeM here on Phoenyx, _USS Excalibur_. 
The main reason that it never made it out of SpaceDock is that the players
were having too much fun interacting as characters, both with each other
and with the NPCs.  I guess that's a tribute to the game as a whole.

However, it came *very* close to launching, made it up to the day of the
ship's launch, when a combination of factors killed the game.

On that subject, watch this space for an upcoming announcement of a new
PBeM RPG from me, Traveller this time.
--
Michael Feldhusen
mike_f@io.com


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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Mon

May 1
2000

19:01Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Michael Feldhusen wrote:

> On that subject, watch this space for an upcoming announcement of a new
> PBeM RPG from me, Traveller this time.

Is that one going to start out already in space to avoid getting stranded
in stardock for two years?  :) 

--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                GMAST List Owner
I was internet when internet wasn't cool.

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MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Mon

May 1
2000

19:20Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Carl D Cravens wrote:

> From: Carl D Cravens 
> 
> On Mon, 1 May 2000, Michael Feldhusen wrote:
> 
> > On that subject, watch this space for an upcoming announcement of a new
> > PBeM RPG from me, Traveller this time.
> 
> Is that one going to start out already in space to avoid getting stranded
> in stardock for two years?  :) 

Yes.  There may be a "Flashback" scene or two, but it will definitely be
in space when the game starts.

--
Michael Feldhusen
mike_f@io.com


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ShawnIsenhart
Shawn Isenhart

Mon

May 1
2000

19:08Z

Getting Players to Post

>On Mon, 1 May 2000, Thom wrote:
>> Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want
>> to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far
>> as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game
>> once for several months, and the ship never made it out
>> of the starbase!
[snip at least two different people who thought he was in their
game, and one mention of Excaliber II, which sounds like it was
a second attempt at the Excaliber game.]

Whoa.  Are there _that_ many Star Trek PBEMs that never get out of
space dock?  I thought that the fun of Star Trek was the "explore
strange, new worlds, etc." stuff.  In these "don't get out of space
dock" games, what activities occur?  I presume that there are many
inter-personal discussions, and people figuring out how they'll work
with this new crew, but it seems like that can only go for so long.
Are there other plot elements introduced?  I'm just curious - I've
played in low-to-no plot movement games, so I'm interested to see
how other people have done this.

Shawn


--------------------------------------------
Shawn Isenhart
shawn.isenhart@artesyn.com
(612) 392-6526
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MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Mon

May 1
2000

19:33Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Shawn Isenhart wrote:

> From: Shawn Isenhart 
> 
> >On Mon, 1 May 2000, Thom wrote:
> >> Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want
> >> to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far
> >> as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game
> >> once for several months, and the ship never made it out
> >> of the starbase!
> [snip at least two different people who thought he was in their
> game, and one mention of Excaliber II, which sounds like it was
> a second attempt at the Excaliber game.]
> 
> Whoa.  Are there _that_ many Star Trek PBEMs that never get out of
> space dock?  I thought that the fun of Star Trek was the "explore
> strange, new worlds, etc." stuff.  In these "don't get out of space
> dock" games, what activities occur?  I presume that there are many
> inter-personal discussions, and people figuring out how they'll work
> with this new crew, but it seems like that can only go for so long.
> Are there other plot elements introduced?  I'm just curious - I've
> played in low-to-no plot movement games, so I'm interested to see
> how other people have done this.

In this case, "Excalibur II" means that the ship was the _USS Excalibur
II_, replacement for the original _USS Excalibur_, which was badly damaged
in the ST:TOS episode _The Ulitimate Computer_.  The entry in the _Star
Trek Encyclopedia_ indicates that the ship was scrapped after that.
Certainly it didn't survive into the "movie" era, as there are comments
about the _Enterprise_ being the only one of the original 13
_Constitution_-class ships to survive that long.

In the case of _Excalibur_ (I wanted to shorten that to _Ex_, but given
that the other ship name mentioned was _Exeter_, that wouldn't been
terribly clear), there were those elements, compounded by a
Captain who couldn't stand her XO; the XO's ideas of readiness drills
(Coyt can probably fill in some of the details on that one);
investigations into who was behind the sabotage of the ship, as well as an
attack on several of the ship's department heads while they were in
transit to the ship; familial complications and lots of other stuff.

--
Michael Feldhusen
mike_f@io.com


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WattErs10
watters.10

Mon

May 1
2000

20:26Z

Getting Players to Post

On 1 May 2000, at 14:33, Michael Feldhusen wrote:


> In the case of _Excalibur_ (I wanted to shorten that to _Ex_, but given
> that the other ship name mentioned was _Exeter_, that wouldn't been
> terribly clear), there were those elements, compounded by a
> Captain who couldn't stand her XO; the XO's ideas of readiness drills
> (Coyt can probably fill in some of the details on that one);

Yeah, the XO thought it was fun to send the geeks (science officers) as 
infiltration teams to test the security team readiness, but only telling the 
geeks and section heads that it was a drill.  We're lucky there weren't any 
fatalities.  Nothing like declaring a ship-wide drill the day before launch, 
and handing officers with *really* low combat skills live weapons and the 
instructions to destroy the ship.

> investigations into who was behind the sabotage of the ship, as well as an
> attack on several of the ship's department heads while they were in transit to
> the ship; familial complications and lots of other stuff.

I think we probably could have spent a few more months on that last day right 
up to launch.  EX2 was one of those games where, honestly, it really did tend 
to read more like a book than a retelling of a gaming session.  I mean, when a 
player character (the ship's chaplain) and another player's character 
(xenobiologist) can spend almost a week on a 30 minute conversation (several 
messages a day no less) about comparative theology, there's something to be 
said about the depth of the game.  

Intercharacter reactions did not take place at the "reaction dice" level - the 
characters reacted to each other based on how the players scripted their 
dialogue and behavior.  This is something that a PBEM gives you the gift of 
time to accomplish.  You can take the time to remember how your character(s) 
react, speech patterns, body language, etc. and create the messages 
appropriately.  Sometimes it was very strange, watching another player, who 
had a couple of characters in a scene, interact with themselves.  When the 
player was *really* good, you could not tell that the characters were being 
run by the same person.

I've been wanting to run a PBEM for a while now, but I fear that I could not 
do anywhere near as good of a job as either Micheal or Lucifer.  Hmm, maybe 
it's a coincidence, but I was in *both* of those ST PBeM's and neither 
survived afterward.  That worries me.

Just a little B^)






Coyt D. Watters
"The Internet, billions of electrons with nothing better to do."
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MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Mon

May 1
2000

21:05Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000 watters.10@osu.edu wrote:

> From: watters.10@osu.edu
> 
> On 1 May 2000, at 14:33, Michael Feldhusen wrote:
> 
> > In the case of _Excalibur_ (I wanted to shorten that to _Ex_, but given
> > that the other ship name mentioned was _Exeter_, that wouldn't been
> > terribly clear), there were those elements, compounded by a
> > Captain who couldn't stand her XO; the XO's ideas of readiness drills
> > (Coyt can probably fill in some of the details on that one);
> 
> Yeah, the XO thought it was fun to send the geeks (science officers) as 
> infiltration teams to test the security team readiness, but only telling the 
> geeks and section heads that it was a drill.  We're lucky there weren't any 
> fatalities.  Nothing like declaring a ship-wide drill the day before launch, 
> and handing officers with *really* low combat skills live weapons and the 
> instructions to destroy the ship.

Yeah, all in all, that was not one of the best moves that was made there.
But enough other people had similarily *interesting* ways of going about
there jobs.

> > investigations into who was behind the sabotage of the ship, as well as an
> > attack on several of the ship's department heads while they were in transit to
> > the ship; familial complications and lots of other stuff.
> 
> I think we probably could have spent a few more months on that last day right 
> up to launch.  

Yeah, that's true.  All the *new* sub-plots that appeared that morning.

> EX2 was one of those games where, honestly, it really did tend 
> to read more like a book than a retelling of a gaming session.  I mean, when a 
> player character (the ship's chaplain) and another player's character 
> (xenobiologist) can spend almost a week on a 30 minute conversation (several 
> messages a day no less) about comparative theology, there's something to be 
> said about the depth of the game.  

Yeah, sometimes I wonder if that can be duplicated again.

> Intercharacter reactions did not take place at the "reaction dice" level - the 
> characters reacted to each other based on how the players scripted their 
> dialogue and behavior.  This is something that a PBEM gives you the gift of 
> time to accomplish.  You can take the time to remember how your character(s) 
> react, speech patterns, body language, etc. and create the messages 
> appropriately.  Sometimes it was very strange, watching another player, who 
> had a couple of characters in a scene, interact with themselves.  When the 
> player was *really* good, you could not tell that the characters were being 
> run by the same person.

It was Aki stalking himself (one of his PCs [the Chief Security Officer]
stalking another one of his PCs) that was one of the real "made it" points
of the game.  That was why his leaving was such a blow.

> I've been wanting to run a PBEM for a while now, but I fear that I could not 
> do anywhere near as good of a job as either Micheal or Lucifer.  Hmm, maybe 
> it's a coincidence, but I was in *both* of those ST PBeM's and neither 
> survived afterward.  That worries me.
> 
> Just a little B^)

I have all the notes of what happened and what was going to happen.  Some
day I'll get around to writing them up.

--
Michael Feldhusen
mike_f@io.com


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BeeStie
Beestie

Tue

May 2
2000

02:59Z

Getting Players to Post

Lurk Mode OFF...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thom" 

> I agree with Tim on this one.  One solution that seems
> to work is become a storyteller, and therefore PC's who
> don't "post" actions get whatever the GM decides.  Of
> course, you have to find players who are willing to give
> up a little direct control...

    While I could do this in my campaigns, I refuse 
to do it.  I feel it adds more life to the campaign if 
the characters around you have a chance of losing 
faith in the quest.  can you *REALLY* trust that 
person at your side when the goblins are upon 
you?  If I, as DM, take over for the character, 
then the answer is yes.  If I just let the character 
go, (perhaps he turned yellow in the face of the 
enemy), then there is a more realistic element 
added to the game.  (IMHO)

> Here's an even bigger PBEM problem, IMHO.  Players want 
> to post each turn, they just post meaningless stuff (as far 
> as the plot line is concerned).  I was in a Star Trek game 
> once for several months, and the ship never made it out 
> of the starbase!

    I tell all my players at the onset that all posts in 
the game must be OK'd by me before being added
 into a true game turn.  So if a player (or players) 
goes off on a rabbit-trail, I can delete what has 
been posted.  Of course, if they take off on a DM 
inspired wild-goose-chase...well, that's another 
story entirely.  

    Tim "Beestie" Baer
    http://aeropaeia.tripod.com

... Nicest sound a halfling makes?                  <>

Lurk Mode ON...


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MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Tue

May 2
2000

21:04Z

Getting Players to Post

On Mon, 1 May 2000, Beestie wrote:

> From: Beestie 

> From: "Thom" 
> 
> > I agree with Tim on this one.  One solution that seems
> > to work is become a storyteller, and therefore PC's who
> > don't "post" actions get whatever the GM decides.  Of
> > course, you have to find players who are willing to give
> > up a little direct control...
> 
>     While I could do this in my campaigns, I refuse 
> to do it.  I feel it adds more life to the campaign if 
> the characters around you have a chance of losing 
> faith in the quest.  can you *REALLY* trust that 
> person at your side when the goblins are upon 
> you?  If I, as DM, take over for the character, 
> then the answer is yes.  If I just let the character 
> go, (perhaps he turned yellow in the face of the 
> enemy), then there is a more realistic element 
> added to the game.  (IMHO)

If I, as the DM, take over a character, then the answer is still "Maybe".
Just because I have (temporarily or permenantly) NPCed a character does
not mean that the character will suddenly become more trustworthy.  Maybe
he will run away, maybe he'll turn out to be on the goblin's side.  Maybe
he was all along. . . .

Of course, if the player who abandoned his character *does* return, he'll
have to deal with the consequences of what I do with that character. . . .

--
Michael Feldhusen
mike_f@io.com


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Thom
Thom

Wed

May 3
2000

06:42Z

Getting Players to Post

>> ...  can you *REALLY* trust that 
>> person at your side when the goblins are upon 
>> you?  If I, as DM, take over for the character, 
>> then the answer is yes.  If I just let the character 
>> go, (perhaps he turned yellow in the face of the 
>> enemy), then there is a more realistic element 
>> added to the game.  (IMHO)

>If I, as the DM, take over a character, then the answer is still "Maybe".
>Just because I have (temporarily or permenantly) NPCed a character does
>not mean that the character will suddenly become more trustworthy.  Maybe
>he will run away, maybe he'll turn out to be on the goblin's side.  Maybe
>he was all along. . . .

I concur.  And this goes for PCs who haven't left either -- Thieves and 
Assassins don't have to pass notes to me, etc.  Players (in general) feel
more free to "act" instead of "react" which makes for more role-playing.

Since the writing is a sort of fiction style (see The Adventurers or
the Assassins), I usually have to create dialog as well.  But I give the
players veto power over their characters, and use as much of their
email dialog as I can.  Sure, I am not "getting players to post" but
I am creating a game that is (so far) enjoyable to all the players.

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DebAllen
Deb Allen

Tue

May 2
2000

03:12Z

Getting Players to Post

At 12:22 AM 5/1/00 -0500, Thom wrote:
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>> I am having difficult getting half of my group to post seems almost as if 
>>> they have vanished. Need advice, Thanks.
>>
PBEM isn't for everyone.  And sometimes it really lags, because you don't
have the energy of the give and take of a FTF.  I have one PBEM I've been
running for um... 4 years almost now. And it has huge lag periods because I
suddenly realize I have no idea what to do with these people.  They've run
outof ambition, I don't know what direction we're going in next, and I have
to sit back and watch for a little bit.

And real life intrudes.  I got pregnant -- whee!  I couldn't type.  *smiles*

What you need to do is get in contact with your players outside of the
game.  Find out why they aren't posting.  Is it a problem wit hthe game or
with life?  Give them a time limit.  And most of all, discuss.  See if you
can sort out what is happening and why.  And if it is only a few players,
cull them, and go on... 

D.
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