http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/22/videogameban.ap/index.html "The law requires coin-operated games featuring graphic violence or strong sexual content to have warning labels and be kept at least 10 feet from nonviolent game machines. The machines must also be separated by a curtain or wall so minors cannot see them. The law bars people under age 18 from such games unless accompanied by a parent or guardian." Thoughts? How many people would get into roleplaying if they couldn't legally until age 18? Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
At 07:36 PM 8/22/00 -0500, Steve Barr wrote: > >"The law requires coin-operated games featuring > graphic violence or strong sexual content to have > warning labels and be kept at least 10 feet from > nonviolent game machines. The machines must > also be separated by a curtain or wall so minors > cannot see them. The law bars people under age > 18 from such games unless accompanied by a > parent or guardian." > >Thoughts? How many people would get into roleplaying if they >couldn't legally until age 18? > Ah, but there's a difference from explicitly violent or sexual video games and an RPG. When I run a game which I know is going to be dealing with tough topics, I make it adults only and won't take anyone outside of college age unless I know that person damned well and know what I'm dealing with. If I'm running for kids, I make it a kids game. This doesn't mean its any less a good roleplaying game, but that I leave out the levels I might drop a game to. I deal with relationships without going in depth about them. Things like that. This isn't to say I'm fond of censorship, just that I really think its a different topic. An RPG is only as "adult" as the GM makes it. And yes, you're right -- if RPGs were banned until the age of 18, fewer people might get into them. But then again, by making them "risky" and "unattainable" people might want todo them *more* rather than less. Might make them "in" simply because they are banned... Babbling as always. D. +-------------------------------------------------+ | Deb Allen (Atwood?) / D-Singer / Tryslora | | d-singer@hall-of-mirrors.com | | http://www.hall-of-mirrors.com | +-------------------------------------------------+ | The Black Road -- an Amber DRPG Convention | | http://www.theblackroad.org | +-------------------------------------------------+ | "You must never run from anything immortal. It | | attracts their attention." | | - _The_Last_Unicorn_ | +-------------------------------------------------+ ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Steve Barr wrote: SB>Thoughts? How many people would get into roleplaying if they SB>couldn't legally until age 18? How many roleplaying games include graphic violence and sex? -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Karen J. Cravens wrote: > On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Steve Barr wrote: > > SB>Thoughts? How many people would get into roleplaying if they > SB>couldn't legally until age 18? > > How many roleplaying games include graphic violence and sex? I think that's an essential point. It is the "graphic depiction" that is being legislated here. I don't know of very many pen-and-paper (or live-action) RPGs that include "graphic" depiction (though I suppose it would be *possible* with live-action, but that's not a game I want to play in). Sometimes the games might include the graphic *description* of violence and/or sex, but description is not normally equated with depiction, which usually requires some visual element. -- Michael Feldhusen mike_f@io.com http://excalibur.pharlap.com/homepage.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Karen J. Cravens wrote:
> How many roleplaying games include graphic violence and sex?
Most of William Stoddard's.
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Steve Barr schrieb: > http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/22/videogameban.ap/index.html > > "The law requires coin-operated games featuring > graphic violence or strong sexual content to have > warning labels and be kept at least 10 feet from > nonviolent game machines. The machines must > also be separated by a curtain or wall so minors > cannot see them. The law bars people under age > 18 from such games unless accompanied by a > parent or guardian." > > Thoughts? How many people would get into roleplaying if they > couldn't legally until age 18? I don't think this touches RPGs at all, or rather, it oughtn't rationally. (Of course rational is what censorship normally isn't, but hey). The issue here is images of violence and sex that young children ought not to be exposed to unwittingly. It's roughly the equivalent of the ruling that forbids videostores from displaying Cinderella next to the porn section (or rather, forbids them to admit children if they do). The Guardians of High Culture have always (and I think rightly) seen pictures as much more dangerous in influence than text, and in this case I can see their point. Of course, the formulation worries me. "Graphic violence or strong sexual content" - does this have any fixed legal significance, or is it a case of "I'm the judge and I say it *is* porn"? Depending on current mood you could use this to forbid Pokemon (c'mon, electric shocks? poison gas?) How would this be handled in application? I wouldn't want my kids to play some of the nastier computer games (if I had any, that is), but neither would I want to get back to the age of "good, clean-minded Disney fun". Lawyers around? As to RPGs - I'm surprised the opposition has not voiced this concern yet. I've heard RPGs attacked variously as escapist and socially stunting (which a good argument can be made against) and tools of Satan (that one doesn't even merit an answer IMNSHO). But if I was a concerned parent what would worry me most is just what my kid is playing there. Now, no big RPG I know makes either graphic, gory violence or porn a central feature (GURPS even refuses to discuss its notorious 'Erotic Art' Skill in print in any detail), but you wouldn't know from looking at the pictures. So this wave might yet spill over, and while I agree with Deb Atwood that roleplaying is easily handled in a mature and civilised way I know I'll have a hard time explaining that to a hostile audience. Volker ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
I don't think this law would have any application to non-computer/console RPGs. The intent of this law is IMO admirable, however, why do we need a law? As a shop owner you should be able to exercise some common sense and segregate your products and as a parent you should be either supervising your child's activities, scoping out where he or she is playing, or speak to the proprietor about your concerns. If that person won't take action, it's up to you. As for Karen's question re: What RPGs' contain graphic violence and/or sex, I would say that most of White Wolf's games fit that description, while some Amber campaigns seem to focus to the exclusion of all else upon incest-related themes. I also agree with the analyses that depiction is distinct from description. If is far different to say "You cut off his head!" than to see it prtrayed on screen. The RPG industry has made an attempt at censoring itself, at least in public. Anyone who's run at Gen Con or Origins is aware that for a while events depicting graphic violence, sex, or the occult were verboten. I think now you only need to put in the Adult/Mature warning and you can take those 13 year olds' Generics. The bottom line is that most laws don't fix problems, they only legitimize the attempts of the busybodies and politically correct to reduce your freedom. If common sense were not so uncommon, our lives would be much simpler and my blood pressure would stay lower :) Joe _____________________________________________________________ wotmania: Your number one source for The Wheel of Time. http://wotmania.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 Volker_Bach@public.uni-hamburg.de wrote:
> kid is playing there. Now, no big RPG I know makes either graphic,
> gory violence or porn a central feature (GURPS even refuses to
> discuss its notorious 'Erotic Art' Skill in print in any detail),
Arduin Grimore was rather extreme in its depiction of injury and death,
though it's long, long out of print.
Unknown Armies has a division of magic known as Pornomancy, in which
practitioners gain magical energy by reproducing the filmed pornographic
acts of a particular porn star.
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Carl D Cravens schrieb: > On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 Volker_Bach@public.uni-hamburg.de wrote: > > > kid is playing there. Now, no big RPG I know makes either graphic, > > gory violence or porn a central feature (GURPS even refuses to > > discuss its notorious 'Erotic Art' Skill in print in any detail), > > Arduin Grimore was rather extreme in its depiction of injury and death, > though it's long, long out of print. > > Unknown Armies has a division of magic known as Pornomancy, in which > practitioners gain magical energy by reproducing the filmed pornographic > acts of a particular porn star. "Pornomancy" - talk about skewed linguistics... But this actually sounds interesting. Sexuality plays a big role in many magical traditions, and while I'm not sure I'd be comfortable integrating this into my average convention campaign I have a group or two with whom I think such elements should work well. Is there a system (any system) that actually treats the matter in an adult and tasteful way? I'm not exactly sold on the Unknown Armies variant, not least because it requires video equipment. Volker ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
> I don't think this law would have any application to non-computer/console RPGs. >The intent of this law is IMO admirable, however, why do we need a law? As a >shop owner you should be able to exercise some common sense and segregate >your products and as a parent you should be either supervising your child's >activities, scoping out where he or she is playing, or speak to the proprietor about >your concerns. If that person won't take action, it's up to you. >From most arcades I've been in, very, very few shop owners have this sort of common sense. I mean, the non-video arcade games (wack-a-mole and the sort) are typically separated, but those games which are the most popular tend to stay near the front of the store whereas those whose popularity has waned get moved to the back. This is commercial common sense...draw people in with your big games and maybe they'll play the other ones. Unfortunately, most of the popular games are pretty violent (the Mortal Kombat series comes to mind), so chances are 99% of the shop owners out there aren't going to put these games in a location that far away from other games. And lets face it...there are about as many parents in a typical arcade (except for your restaraunt-theme arcades) as there are politicians. > The bottom line is that most laws don't fix problems, they only legitimize the >attempts of the busybodies and politically correct to reduce your freedom. If >common sense were not so uncommon, our lives would be much simpler and my >blood pressure would stay lower :) To paraphrase one of my most favorite movie quotes of all time... "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, stupid and you know it." (Men in Black). While I'm very, very opposed to censorship (I prefer industry standards imposed by the industry to direct goverment regulation), some people just need to be legislated (not necessarily arcade owners...just a general statement). Lucifer >:} ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On 23 Aug 2000, at 8:07, Volker_Bach@public.uni-hambur wrote: > Steve Barr schrieb: > > > http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/08/22/videogameban.ap/index.html > > > > "The law requires coin-operated games featuring > > graphic violence or strong sexual content to have > > warning labels and be kept at least 10 feet from > > nonviolent game machines. The machines must > > also be separated by a curtain or wall so minors > > cannot see them. The law bars people under age > > 18 from such games unless accompanied by a > > parent or guardian." > > > > Thoughts? How many people would get into roleplaying if they > > couldn't legally until age 18? > > I don't think this touches RPGs at all, or rather, it oughtn't > rationally. (Of course rational is what censorship normally isn't, > but hey). The issue here is images of violence and sex that young > children ought not to be exposed to unwittingly. It's roughly the > equivalent of the ruling that forbids videostores from displaying > Cinderella next to the porn section (or rather, forbids them to > admit children if they do). The Guardians of High Culture have > always (and I think rightly) seen pictures as much more dangerous in > influence than text, and in this case I can see their point. > > Of course, the formulation worries me. "Graphic violence or strong > sexual content" - does this have any fixed legal significance, or is > it a case of "I'm the judge and I say it *is* porn"? Depending on > current mood you could use this to forbid Pokemon (c'mon, electric > shocks? poison gas?) How would this be handled in application? I > wouldn't want my kids to play some of the nastier computer games (if > I had any, that is), but neither would I want to get back to the age > of "good, clean-minded Disney fun". Lawyers around? > > As to RPGs - I'm surprised the opposition has not voiced this > concern yet. I've heard RPGs attacked variously as escapist and > socially stunting (which a good argument can be made against) and > tools of Satan (that one doesn't even merit an answer IMNSHO). But > if I was a concerned parent what would worry me most is just what my > kid is playing there. Now, no big RPG I know makes either graphic, > gory violence or porn a central feature (GURPS even refuses to > discuss its notorious 'Erotic Art' Skill in print in any detail), > but you wouldn't know from looking at the pictures. So this wave > might yet spill over, and while I agree with Deb Atwood that > roleplaying is easily handled in a mature and civilised way I know > I'll have a hard time explaining that to a hostile audience. > > Volker Not to get too far off the topic or to sound too political, but back in the early days of rolegaming, Tipper Gore lead a crusade which included, among other things, a call to have rolegaming banned except for adults. Same thing is happening to independent / imported comics. Next time you head down to pick up a little harder manga from the adult section, don't be suprised to find the comic shop closed, because the owner is in jail on obsenity charges. Regular books are next. Little pockets of society have always thought that they knew better than the parents what was and was not acceptable "for children" and think that placing laws makes the problem go away. Case in point - just 20 miles south of my home the little town of Circleville Ohio decided that "Children" could not have facial hair, since facial hair is a sign of drug use among teens - this was not in the 50's or 60's, but happened just a few years ago. Now they have clean-shaven children and NO drug problem (yeah right). It's this type of specious logic the politicians love, they can jump on any bandwagon to "support" a cause, and when the ACLU steps in they can point to those hippie-freaks from the 60's who don't care about children. One study done by a church group without proper scientific controls is all it takes. Just another reason I think the "professional" politician should be banned. Coyt D. Watters "The Internet, billions of electrons with nothing better to do." ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
