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TanGent
Robert A. Howard

Wed

Dec 13
2000

02:02Z

Strengths & Weaknesses of D20

So, I'm curious of the opinions of those of you who have looked over the new
D&D 3rd edition rules.

What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of this new "D20" system?

Rob

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BOb
The Great and Mighty Bob

Wed

Dec 13
2000

03:11Z

Strengths & Weaknesses of D20

From: "Tangent" 
>
> What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of this new "D20" system?
>
Strengths: the system is simple, but complete. The standardized "d20+bonus
against DC" really binds the system together. Plus the "Open Gaming Licence"
has and will continue to produce some really great 3rd-party products. This
connot be said of other widespread games, like WhiteWolf's "world of
darkness", GURPS and Palladium. Plus, soon there'll
be d20D&D, d20StarWars, and d20Dune. And that's just the official ones.
Which means tons & tons of source material.


Weaknesses: Seems that official products will mostly be Hack 'n' Slash for a
while, untill they build up a new consumer base that will want real
"roleplaying" material.

That's all I can think of.

   ----The Great and Mighty Bob.
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VoivodeShrike
Voivode

Wed

Dec 13
2000

03:22Z

Strengths & Weaknesses of D20

-----Original Message-----
From: Tangent 
To: gmast@phoenyx.net 
Date: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 9:07 PM
Subject: GM: Strengths & Weaknesses of D20


>So, I'm curious of the opinions of those of you who have looked over the
new
>D&D 3rd edition rules.
>
>What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of this new "D20" system?


Strengths:

Fairly straightforward target number system.
Easy to modify.
Uses archetypes & levels so new players have easier time of it.
Does a good job of using a system of "archetypes" for just about everything,
including monsters and modifiers to rolls.
Carries a lot of baggage for some folks because of who made it.
Flat Randomizer.
Weak "starting characters."



Weaknesses:

Uses archetypes & levels so can be somewhat limiting.
Carries a lot of baggage for some folks because of who made it.
Flat randomizer.
Weak "starting" characters.


That is just for D20.  However if you want me to go into D&D 3rd ed or Star
Wars specifically, I have a few more things to add.

Later,

Ryan Fisk
voivode@voyager.net


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DOc
Darth Stomper

Fri

Dec 15
2000

00:09Z

Strengths & Weaknesses of D20

----- Original Message -----
From: "Voivode" 


[SNIP]

> Weaknesses:
>
> Uses archetypes & levels so can be somewhat limiting.
> Carries a lot of baggage for some folks because of who made it.
> Flat randomizer.

Funny, I don't remember any referencess to coin tosses...

[runs for cover, not entirely suprised it takes a flamewar to increase
traffic]

   ---Darth Stomper--
Dark Chairman, Stomper Institute for
  Thaumaturgy and Heronism (S.I.T.H)
GURPS fan - GMAST-L Old One (once banished)
Philosopher - Alternate Historian - General Crank
email: bravado@mindspring.com
web: http://www.mindspring.com//~bravado

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VoivodeShrike
Voivode

Fri

Dec 15
2000

05:01Z

Strengths & Weaknesses of D20

-----Original Message-----
From: John P. Jones 
To: gmast@phoenyx.net 
Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: GM: Strengths & Weaknesses of D20



>I picked up the books out of curiosity, with no real desire to play D&D
>again.  That was about a month ago.  Now I'm gearing up to run a D&D
>campaign.
>
>Did bits of Mir fall from space and hit me in the head?  Well, yes, but
that
>has nothing to do with my excitement about 3e.

I have resisted the urge to run it (I am finding that I am happy running
only certain game systems) but I am very eager to play it (I am a gaming
slut when it comes to playing, I can forgive just about any systems faults
if the GM is at least fair).

Later,


Ryan Fisk
voivode@voyager.net


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VoivodeShrike
Voivode

Fri

Dec 15
2000

05:36Z

Strengths & Weaknesses of D20

-----Original Message-----
From: Darth Stomper 
To: gmast@phoenyx.net 
Date: Thursday, December 14, 2000 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: GM: Strengths & Weaknesses of D20


>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Voivode" 
>
>
>[SNIP]
>
>> Weaknesses:
>>
>> Uses archetypes & levels so can be somewhat limiting.
>> Carries a lot of baggage for some folks because of who made it.
>> Flat randomizer.
>
>Funny, I don't remember any referencess to coin tosses...
>
>[runs for cover, not entirely suprised it takes a flamewar to increase
>traffic]


That's it, YOU get a Mail Bomb. . .   :-)  (It took me a second to get it so
I chuckled, then my wife asked what I was laughing at, I told her what I
wrote and what you wrote and she looked at me funny for a bit then she
started to chuckle too)


Though the game Underworld uses a FLAT randomizer (which can of course be
simulated by even/odd).


Later,

Ryan Fisk
voivode@voyager.net


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JohnPriceJones
John P. Jones

Wed

Dec 13
2000

15:20Z

Strengths & Weaknesses of D20

> So, I'm curious of the opinions of those of you who have looked over the
new
> D&D 3rd edition rules.

I picked up the books out of curiosity, with no real desire to play D&D
again.  That was about a month ago.  Now I'm gearing up to run a D&D
campaign.

Did bits of Mir fall from space and hit me in the head?  Well, yes, but that
has nothing to do with my excitement about 3e.  Here's my read on the
system:

Strengths:
Vastly improved, unified game mechanic.  The core d20 mechanic is not my
favorite in the whole world of gaming, but it works well, and it's nice &
simple.  It includes concepts like "taking 10" and "taking 20", which allow
characters to take an automatic result of 10 or 20 on a skill check by
taking their time to make sure they get it right.  Given world enough and
time, characters do not need to roll to try to use their skills successfully
in most circumstances.
Much more open & adaptable classes, with a feat and skill system which
allows for a great deal of flexibility within the classes.  A new vision for
multiclass characters that allows for even more variety and customization in
characters.
Characters start weak and build -- the evolution of character is something
many game systems that seem to be reactions to D&D don't seem to do very
well.
Additions to the system, like the Sorcerer, that answer many of the gripes
that players had in the past (the sorcerer is a version of magic user who
casts his spells by sheer force of personality and will, not study and
learning.  He doesn't need to memorize his spells ahead of time, choosing
spells to cast at will from a limited repertoire.  He doesn't get higher
level spells as quickly, but gets more spells to cast per day).
Variant suggestions in the rulebooks that will help GMs adapt the system to
their own preferences, like a point system for buying attributes, rather
than rolling them in traditional D&D style.
It's still D&D.  For me, anyway, AD&D was the first game I played, I played
it for years, and many of my fondest gaming memories are from those games.
The game takes a lot less effort to set up for other players, who have also
played D&D in the past, and who have a nearly instinctive understanding of
the setting.
It's a WotC product -- there will be TONS of support for it -- multiple
campaign worlds, settings, published adventures all over the map, newsgroups
that have enough people on them to maintain lively discussion on a wide
variety of topics without lapsing into silence for weeks and months at a
time.  And, as the most seminal WotC product, there's no risk that it will
be discontinued, the way Alternity was (another game system I like a great
deal).

Weaknesses:
It's still D&D.  And even the other d20 games, like Star Wars, will still
taste a little like D&D.  The hit points concept, which is explained and
used a bit better, is still in the system.  You'll still have upper level
characters with tons of hit points.  But at least now it's thought through a
little better.  Once you accept the premise that the hit point system is
going to be a part of the game the rest of the damage rules fits into place
pretty well, and is pretty well thought out.
The movie was awful.  I know that's not really a weakness of the game
system, but so what.  It was REALLY bad.  Pretty dragons, though.
It's a WotC product, which means there will always be new things to buy.
There are plans in the works for four class books, each offering a lot more
detail and complexity for two of the eight major classes.  You don't need to
keep buying them, but they'll be on the shelves calling to you.  It's a good
thing we're mostly grownups now and can better afford to support our habits.

That's my take on the game.  Despite myself, I'm excited.  Check it out.

-jpj


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