Firstly...the pheonix.net stigma...no, that's not it...its the Silver or Raven part of it. There've been times I've disagreed with them, there've been times I've defended them. If they were hands-off kind of moderators, I'd be happy with the 'tude people sometimes get around here from one or the other. If they were sticklers for the rules, I'd expect them to be a bit removed and aloof, ignoring the opportunity to randomly flame someone. As it is, they're more into forcing politeness than most previous moderators _and_ they can be pretty darned rude themselves at times (and I'm not getting into who started what...that doesn't matter). At least, this is what I've seen in the past few years. If they want to condemn people for being crass or rude, they shouldn't flame someone themselves. That, in my opinion, is abuse of power. And yes, I know full well that most other listservs, particularly on pheonix, are more heavily moderated than this one...this one's _still_ too heavily moderated for my tastes, at times. It has a tradition that has been slowly eroded away over the past few years. The decrease in readership and postings reflects this, I think. People are afraid to post their ideas because if they seem too rude in expressing them or too controversial, they know they'll get squished. >I think other people are smart enough to not flame the moderator >before asking for help. That's the moderator's job...to provide support to his or her constituents (i.e. the list members). In the golden age of GMAST, that meant preventing spam and providing list-related information when it was requested, even by people who flame the moderator or don't try to decipher the headers. And yes, before anyone asks, I've moderated lists before, so I _do_ have a right to tell 'em what their job is. And the lists I moderated I moderated even more closely than the Cravens do here...but those were lists of a different bent than GMAST, without the tradition of near-limitless freedom that some of us had come to enjoy. Thing is, I'm not going anywhere. At least not yet. GMAST might be bereft of the spirit it once had, but there'll still plenty of people around here I do like listening to. I do miss the flame wars, joke posts and other stuff of the good ol' days and have been increasingly concerned over the attitudes of our list moderators, but I have an affinity for this old bucket and I just can't let it go. At least not yet. Oh, while I've got the soapbox, I don't think I expressed my disappointment in the "we don't want their sort here, do we" comment that was made earlier. That sort of elitist attitude is very unbefitting of anyone who wants to carry on the GMAST tradition. GMAST was great through its diversity, which included the jerks (which, based on the recent postings of this one, is getting to be a much broader state of being around here). It's sad to hear a moderator telling the GMAST community that there are certain types of people in our hobby, who were posting about our hobby, that we don't want here. Lucifer >:} -- "The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" --Milton, Paradise Lost, Bk. 1 Homepage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/index.html Lucifer's DJ Webpage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/private/DJ/index.html Lucifer's Vampire Webpage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer01/private/VampHome/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 Noctifer@aol.com wrote: [A whole lot that I agree with snipped] > Oh, while I've got the soapbox, I don't think I expressed my > disappointment in the "we don't want their sort here, do we" comment > that was made earlier. That sort of elitist attitude is very > unbefitting of anyone who wants to carry on the GMAST tradition. > GMAST was great through its diversity, which included the jerks > (which, based on the recent postings of this one, is getting to be a > much broader state of being around here). It's sad to hear a > moderator telling the GMAST community that there are certain types > of people in our hobby, who were posting about our hobby, that we > don't want here. OK, I'm putting my two cents in here. I have to admit that I agree with Lucifer here, both the whole message and the *specific* point he's making in the paragraph above. Yes, I'll admit that I didn't find a religious flame war to be all that much fun, and someone threatening to post "naughty words" if he isn't told how to unsubscribe, but I also think that Karen and Carl should try to either be above it or "turn the other cheek", as it were. Yes, there are times when telling an obnoxious person to "go fish" when they demand unsubscribe info is very satisfying and amusing for those around. I'll admit that I've even found pleasure in it myself. *However*, this is not a *nice* thing. Everyone can decide for themselves if they want to be "nice", but Karen and Carl do need to remember that what they do reflects not just on themselves but on the Phoenyx as a whole. As for people who are "that kind", maybe if we were at least a little less eager to run people out for having different opinions, we might find that they are not "that kind" after all. OTOH, I *really* didn't want to wade through a religous war here. -- Michael Feldhusen mike_f@io.com http://www.io.com/~mike_f/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On 14 Jun 2001, at 18:04, Noctifer@aol.com wrote: > getting to be a much broader state of being around here). It's sad to hear a > moderator telling the GMAST community that there are certain types of people > in our hobby, who were posting about our hobby, that we don't want here. He *wasn't* posting about the hobby, though. He was posting about religion. You said earlier that there were posts he'd made over "the last few days," but the first post *here* was to flame Michael (and no, he didn't think the first one was going *anywhere* but the list, that was later). I think maybe you're thinking of some other forum. -- Karen J. Cravens (silver@phoenyx.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On 14 Jun 01, at 18:04, Noctifer@aol.com wrote: > And yes, I know full well that most other listservs, particularly on > pheonix, are more heavily moderated than this one...this one's _still_ > too heavily moderated for my tastes, at times. It has a tradition > that has been slowly eroded away over the past few years. The > decrease in readership and postings reflects this, I think. People > are afraid to post their ideas because if they seem too rude in > expressing them or too controversial, they know they'll get squished. Something I considered but didn't actually type, or if I did, blame senility: There are two types of "rudeness."(1) One is simple personal rudeness. The other is more complicated. It involves a group with history and traditions, and being rude to outsiders as both defense mechanism and initiation rite. GMAST used to have the latter type of rudeness. When the group dissolved, that went away. People still unthinkingly offer/accept this as justification for simple personal rudeness, in misguided nostalgia for a time when the group was a cohesive social unit. Qualifications: I have, over the course of many years, drifted in to GMAST, decided the group did not sufficiently jibe with my personality, and drifted out again. No animosity (hence the repeat drifts), it just never clicked for me. But I do know a little bit of its history and personality as a result, and from an outsider's standpoint. (Thus, "qualifications" is used in both senses of the word.) 1 - There is also "abuse." Posting obscenities for their own sake is abuse. I'm fairly certain that if I agreed with Mr. Feldhusen's sentiments concerning a religious war by saying "Yeah, fuck /that/ noise," I wouldn't encounter much official resistance. I may be wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
>He *wasn't* posting about the hobby, though. He was posting >about religion. The original spark of the conversation was religion as it applied to gaming...he was arguing that the viewpoints of the original poster were dangerous. Whatever the merits of his argument or the way he portrayed them, he was getting involved in a discussion. And I know I was the one to bring it up, but to be honest, discussions around here didn't have to be about gaming until fairly recently in the list's history... Lucifer >:} -- "The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" --Milton, Paradise Lost, Bk. 1 Homepage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/index.html Lucifer's DJ Webpage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/private/DJ/index.html Lucifer's Vampire Webpage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer01/private/VampHome/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
I really can win this one, but I'd like to correct a few errors and
misconceptions.
> As it is, they're more into forcing politeness than most previous
> moderators _and_ they can be pretty darned rude themselves at times
In all the years I've been on Gmast, I know of only one moderator and she
*kicked* (not drove) someone off the list for rudeness in her first month.
I don't think I can accept your claim.
> If they want to condemn people for being crass or rude, they shouldn't
> flame someone themselves. That, in my opinion, is abuse of power.
I don't believe I've flamed anyone on this list. I've been short with
them, and perhaps on the rude side, but I very, very rarely flame. Though
this could be a perception problem caused by the deflation of "flame" over
the last few years.
> It has a tradition that has been slowly eroded away over the past few
> years. The decrease in readership and postings reflects this, I
> think.
The readership is bigger than it was when we inherited the list from
Stargame. We have averaged 185 members for years now... there hasn't been
a decline in readership. In fact, you don't have any basis to make this
claim on... you don't have access to the numbers.
The decrease in postings happened long before we established any kind of
"moderation style". I believe the beginning of decline started on the
university site, was heavily impacted by shifting to Stargame (nothing to
do with Stargame, just the fact that it moved and a lot of people didn't
move with it) and it's never recovered. Because...
> People are afraid to post their ideas because if they seem too rude in
> expressing them or too controversial, they know they'll get squished.
I don't think this is the case. I think the community has simply
stagnated. It happens. The world-design mailing list is clearly a case
of this.
> That's the moderator's job...to provide support to his or her constituents
> (i.e. the list members).
If the list members are going to be rude to us, I don't see that we have
any obligation to help them. I posted enough information for Jim to
figure out how to sign off and he responded by calling me a jerk and
complaining that I took over 24 hours to get around to responding to him.
And you expect me to give him service with a smile?
Like Karen said... we're not paid, we're not "obligated" to do anything.
> In the golden age of GMAST, that meant preventing spam and providing
> list-related information when it was requested, even by people who
> flame the moderator or don't try to decipher the headers.
In the golden age of Gmast, there was no moderator or even a listowner
that paid attention to the list.
Well, 'nuff of that. Announcement up next.
--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net) GMAST List Owner
[ The Fudge List -- http://fudge.phoenyx.net/ ]
ERROR: Unable to comprehend lame tagline.
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GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
>I really can win this one, but I'd like to correct a few errors and >misconceptions. I'm guessing you meant "can't," yes? >> As it is, they're more into forcing politeness than most previous >> moderators _and_ they can be pretty darned rude themselves at times > >In all the years I've been on Gmast, I know of only one moderator and she >*kicked* (not drove) someone off the list for rudeness in her first month. >I don't think I can accept your claim. That's because you joined, I'm guessing, during Randye's very short term as GMAST moderator (or shortly before that). Randye is still a friend of mine, but that _was_ a very bad move on her part (and why I put the "most" in there). The moderator before her (and maybe more than one, the memory doesn't serve that far back) didn't moderate, for reasons you list later... >> If they want to condemn people for being crass or rude, they shouldn't >> flame someone themselves. That, in my opinion, is abuse of power. > >I don't believe I've flamed anyone on this list. I've been short with >them, and perhaps on the rude side, but I very, very rarely flame. Though >this could be a perception problem caused by the deflation of "flame" over >the last few years. True, but I wasn't talking about you...I was talking about Karen. What she said was a flame...i.e. a personal attack without substance or explanation. The post she was responding to was rude and insulting, but it did have substance and explanation. >> It has a tradition that has been slowly eroded away over the past few >> years. The decrease in readership and postings reflects this, I >> think. > >The readership is bigger than it was when we inherited the list from >Stargame. We have averaged 185 members for years now... there hasn't been >a decline in readership. In fact, you don't have any basis to make this >claim on... you don't have access to the numbers. True...I misspoke and I apologize. You do address what I was trying to say in the next paragraph, though...decrease in postings... >The decrease in postings happened long before we established any kind of >"moderation style". I believe the beginning of decline started on the >university site, was heavily impacted by shifting to Stargame (nothing to >do with Stargame, just the fact that it moved and a lot of people didn't >move with it) and it's never recovered. Because... That's true. Things started to slow down substantially during the move to Stargame and the subsequent move to Phoenix. I expected the list to recover, but it didn't. I think for the reasons I mentioned. >> People are afraid to post their ideas because if they seem too rude in >> expressing them or too controversial, they know they'll get squished. > >I don't think this is the case. I think the community has simply >stagnated. It happens. The world-design mailing list is clearly a case >of this. Haven't read it, so I can't really comment to that. I hate it when people say this, but I do know of at least one other old-timer who's a bit tired of the problems the list has been facing recently. And to be honest, I think Karen's actions are contributing to the lack of posting we've seen recently. >> That's the moderator's job...to provide support to his or her constituents >> (i.e. the list members). > >If the list members are going to be rude to us, I don't see that we have >any obligation to help them. I posted enough information for Jim to >figure out how to sign off and he responded by calling me a jerk and >complaining that I took over 24 hours to get around to responding to him. >And you expect me to give him service with a smile? > >Like Karen said... we're not paid, we're not "obligated" to do anything. Yeah, you are obligated, Carl. You took on the responsibility of moderating GMAST. That means service...I don't really care if its with a smile or a flame. It would've taken _much_ less time to post the directions in an e-mail message than it did to point at where he could've found it out himself. Egos were bruised, though, and he got some smarty replies that, I think, specifically avoided giving him the direct answers he was looking for. The point here is that it doesn't matter if you get paid...not everything's about money. You volunteered to host GMAST, thus taking on an obligation to maintain the spirit that it had previously enjoyed. People wanted to leave Stargame for two reasons...shitty service and a moderator who didn't quite understand what the list was all about. The service thing has been great since the move to Phoenix...no complaints there and a credit to you. The latter reason seemed rectified with the move to Phoenix...since then, evidence has started cropping up to contradict that. >> In the golden age of GMAST, that meant preventing spam and providing >> list-related information when it was requested, even by people who >> flame the moderator or don't try to decipher the headers. > >In the golden age of Gmast, there was no moderator or even a listowner >that paid attention to the list. Yep...you say that like it was a bad thing. That's not to say you shouldn't pay attention to the list...only that you shouldn't moderate (again, beyond the technical issues mentioned previously). >Well, 'nuff of that. Announcement up next. Waiting. Lucifer >:} -- "The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n" --Milton, Paradise Lost, Bk. 1 Homepage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/index.html Lucifer's DJ Webpage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer/private/DJ/index.html Lucifer's Vampire Webpage: http://members.aol.com/noctifer01/private/VampHome/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- GMAST Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gmast/
On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 Noctifer@aol.com wrote:
> I'm guessing you meant "can't," yes?
Um... yeah. Subconscious wishful thinking, I suppose.
> That's because you joined, I'm guessing, during Randye's very short term as
> GMAST moderator (or shortly before that). Randye is still a friend of mine,
> but that _was_ a very bad move on her part (and why I put the "most" in
No, I joined years before that... Gmast never had a moderator in the
years I was subscribed when it was hosted by the university site.
> there). The moderator before her (and maybe more than one, the memory
> doesn't serve that far back) didn't moderate, for reasons you list later...
I don't recall a moderator before her. I assume that the list technically
had an "owner" but that person didn't read the list or care what went on
on it.
> True, but I wasn't talking about you...I was talking about Karen.
But I get lumped into Karen's actions.
> That's true. Things started to slow down substantially during the move to
> Stargame and the subsequent move to Phoenix. I expected the list to recover,
> but it didn't. I think for the reasons I mentioned.
That's where we'll just have to agree to disagree.
> Yeah, you are obligated, Carl. You took on the responsibility of moderating
> GMAST. That means service...I don't really care if its with a smile or a
> flame.
No, I took the responsibility of handling the technical issues of Gmast...
I never accepted the position of "moderator". I expect the list members
to help each other.
> It would've taken _much_ less time to post the directions in an
> e-mail message than it did to point at where he could've found it out
> himself.
Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and maybe he'll
learn to find out things for himself instead of bugging other people to
give him answers.
> >In the golden age of Gmast, there was no moderator or even a listowner
> >that paid attention to the list.
>
> Yep...you say that like it was a bad thing.
I don't mean to imply that. Gmast was fine without it.
Though lack of such on taogm-l *did* destroy the list, IMO... tradition
was thrown to the wind and a new tradition, very unlike the old tradition,
was instituted by a few strong personalities and a sudden influx of D&D
players because Wizards "inadvertantly" listed it under their section of
D&D mailings lists.
--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net) GMAST List Owner
[ Phoenyx PBeM Roleplaying -- http://www.phoenyx.net/ ]
Where am I . . . and why am I in this handbasket?
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