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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Sun

Nov 23
2003

04:15Z

Gaming success

In another (non-roleplaying) forum, someone mentioned roleplaying as an
example in an argument.  His assertion was that roleplaying, as an
industry, was irrecoverably damaged by all the bad press about "Satanism"
and whatnot, and has never really recovered.  Several of us pointed out
that it probably had more to do with paper prices, CCGs, and perhaps video
games than any parental outrage.

And someone else asserted, and this is what I'm curious about, that
the roleplaying industry is larger than it's ever been.  So that's my
question... is it?  And in what way?  Unit sales?  Or dollar sales, and if
so what part does inflation and cover price increases play (that is, are
there more roleplayers, or the same number (or fewer) paying more per
book)?


-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

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DOc
Darth Stomper

Sun

Nov 23
2003

17:21Z

Gaming success

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karen J. Cravens" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 10:15 PM
Subject: GM: Gaming success


> In another (non-roleplaying) forum, someone mentioned roleplaying as an
> example in an argument.  His assertion was that roleplaying, as an
> industry, was irrecoverably damaged by all the bad press about "Satanism"
> and whatnot, and has never really recovered.  Several of us pointed out
> that it probably had more to do with paper prices, CCGs, and perhaps video
> games than any parental outrage.
>
> And someone else asserted, and this is what I'm curious about, that
> the roleplaying industry is larger than it's ever been.  So that's my
> question... is it?  And in what way?  Unit sales?  Or dollar sales, and if
> so what part does inflation and cover price increases play (that is, are
> there more roleplayers, or the same number (or fewer) paying more per
> book)?

I don't have the hard datum, but I'm going to toss what I know, or _think_ I
know, anyway...

The answer is between the extremes.  The number of roleplayers is probably
at a point much higher than it's been in a long time.  The reasons, I
suspect, are demographic as much as cultural, at least in the US; if a
certain percent of a certain population will get into the hobby, and the
size of that demographic changes, then your baseline numbers change.
(Thought exercise:  If D&D had come about 20 years earlier, in time to hit
the Baby Boomers, where would the industry be now?)

The simple fact is that this is, and likely always will be, a niche
industry.  As a result, margins ain't that great, and "excellent profits"
are never going to be what many other industries would think of.  After all,
it's publishing, and it's limited-interest publishing at that, so you're
never going to have sustained volume of sale large enough to be noticed on
any real scale.

PR is a problem, but the "Satanism" thing just isn't the factor it once was.
It's more the "geek" thing now, as witnessed by a recent GE commercial aired
during the Today show where someone's "geek" creds were established by a D&D
3.x Player's Handbook appearing in their bookbag.  That's a more persistent
stigma, though at least it isn't the revulsion-laden stereotype used by
pseudo-Christian fearmongers; it's a pigeonhole, but at least it's a nicer
one.

>From the industry standpoint, other than demographic realities about the
limits of the industry, there are lots of factors.  Paper and related
physical publishing costs are one, but these have been getting offset by
technology; initially the desktop publishing revolution, and now the advent
of Internet publishing are lowering the barriers substantially.
Distribution is always a problem area, but we're not the only ones with such
gripes, and again the Internet is starting to bring some changes, though not
always for the better.  Development is also a key point--ask any game
designer, real or would-be.  OGL and d20 took quite a bit if the sting away;
even if the d20 starts to slack as WotC plays "Simon Sez" with the d20
license, OGL is still there, and it's making game design much less work.
(Yes, FUDGE has been out there for an age, but it hasn't exactly sparked as
a design framework like the d20 variants the OGL has wrought, for good or
ill.)

And of course, if the economy sucks and disposable income tanks, well, I
don't have to tell anyone here what happens to spending habits.  Compare
2003 with, say, 1996 and you have the point here.  The business end is
cyclical...you get a burst of new outfits, new products, and new ideas, and
then the herd gets culled hard and it's lean for a while.  Small outfits go
away.  Sometimes big ones, too.  New ones take their place in the next
upswing, and the cycle continues.

CCGs...I have a personal loathing of these creatures, but from an economic
standpoint, they've probably been positive.  I've anecdotal evidence that
these high-volume, low-footprint cash cows are what keep a number of gaming
stores open in many areas; add to this the income to outfits that can then
sink that cash into traditional RPGs and, well, I guess I have to say it's a
mixed-positive.  Perhaps it's a drain of interest, cash, and talent, but
it's probably also helping sustain portions of the industry at the same
time.

Overall...we're not _quite_ in a Golden Age, but it's far from a Dark Age.
Many outfits aren't in as good shape as they were 3-4 years ago, but there's
a good deal of life in the industry.  Even if it is d20 product of often
questionable quality.  (It's like I said about the demographics, if the base
pool is larger, the sub-groups are larger...even the ones we'd rather do
without.)  The new factors of Internet publishing and distribution and the
OGL are offsetting general economics just now; otherwise I suspect there
wouldn't be quite as much activity on the business end.  It's an unstable
environment right now, though...a new change in OGL, new Internet copyright
laws, the failure of a major player, or a serious uptrend--or downtrend--in
the economy could all tilt the balance some way or the other and change the
landscape in a matter of months.

I'm rambling.  Still, I hope this helps...
   ---Darth Stomper--
Dark Chairman, Stomper Institute for Thaumaturgy and Heronism (S.I.T.H)
GURPS fan - GMAST-L Old One (once banished) - Philosopher - Iron Otaku -
- Alternate Historian - General Crank - email: bravado@mindspring.com
"Where running for your life before lunch is a way of life"
MxLP Count: 1


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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Sun

Nov 23
2003

17:41Z

Gaming success

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, Karen J. Cravens wrote:

> And someone else asserted, and this is what I'm curious about, that
> the roleplaying industry is larger than it's ever been.  So that's my
> question... is it?  And in what way?  Unit sales?  Or dollar sales, and if
> so what part does inflation and cover price increases play (that is, are
> there more roleplayers, or the same number (or fewer) paying more per
> book)?

And are they counting CCG's and click-base games as part of the
"roleplaying industry"?  If you throw in what people spend on WizKids
products, that's a pretty big chunk of money.

--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
    [        The Fudge List -- http://fudge.phoenyx.net/        ]
You can tell the character of a man by the friends he keeps.
   -Dr. Ed Cole
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GAMERS Home Page:  http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/

ShaneKnysh
Shane Knysh

Mon

Nov 24
2003

05:30Z

Gaming success

Greetings All!

I have said this before and I will probably say it again. "Roleplaying as a rule is too
cheap to succeed in over the long haul". I think that roleplaying will at best be like it
is today: almost, but not quite, ready to make the leap to the main stream. 

please note: I am making several sweeping generalizations to make a point.

A large number of gamers balk at buying the d20 core books again for version 3.5 because
they just bought the 3.0 books a year or so ago. A large number of gamers were upset over
the treatment if IP by the people at TSR, they felt it was unfair that you couldn't
publish your own module with TSR owned property. A large number of gamers were upset that
TSR/Wizards/Hasbro are constantly bringing out new products to bleed the average gamer for
more money.

As I have stated before, a single person in another hobby can match the investment of an
entire group of gamers. For example, my buddy plays recreational hockey, he spends on
average $150-230 a year on equipment, repairs, ice rental, etc. With d20 and OGL a new
group of 5 d20 gamers could buy buy 5 PHB, 1 DMG, 1MM, and 5 sets of dice for a total cost
$195.44. They could also buy 1 PHB, 1 DMG, and 1 MM, 5 sets of dice, and 5 SRDs for a
total of $132.66 (if they pay $7 for the SRD at RPGNow rather than print it themselves).
The goalie will spend that much again next year, the gamers don't have to buy anything
else ever to continue playing. 

Right now I think there are more people roleplaying, a lot more people. The barriers to
entry have been greatly reduced by the d20 and OGL licenses, by Tri-stat dx, by places
like RPGNow where you can get loads of free products and games. 

Right now I think the industry is in slow decline. There are a lot of smaller companies
producing product, but at smaller prices. The flagships are shrinking, offering less and
less. 

The 'open source' movement is also starting to take hold. More companies are releasing
their core rules for free, hoping to get more people playing (that works) in the hopes
they will then buy accessory products (that doesn't). If you look at the average group of
gamers, 1 maybe 2 GMs and 5 to 7 players, a basic rule book would be purchased by
everyone. That is 6 to 9 sales. An adventure might be purchased by one dm but rarely by
both, that's 1 or 2 sales. Other types of accessories might be of interest to GMs and
players but it is unlikely they will have the universal appeal to sell to everyone in the
group.

So, now that my rant is over, I would say that the industry is bigger than ever in terms
of people, but at best no bigger than before in terms of money. I have no empirical
evidence to back up these opinions, only observations about the number of stores and the
products stocked in those stores. 

Shane
shane.knysh at YonerDotCom
"I think we can all agree on one thing: 'The Moos of Derision' would be
a good name for a rock band."-Dave Barry
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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Tue

Nov 25
2003

04:13Z

Gaming success

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Carl D Cravens wrote:

CDC>And are they counting CCG's and click-base games as part of the
CDC>"roleplaying industry"?  If you throw in what people spend on WizKids
CDC>products, that's a pretty big chunk of money.

Forget D20 licensing... everybody should license clickbase games and write
roleplaying add-ons.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Tue

Nov 25
2003

04:41Z

Gaming success

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Karen J. Cravens wrote:

> Forget D20 licensing... everybody should license clickbase games and write
> roleplaying add-ons.

The click-base games have the same fundamental flaw (where I'm concerned)
that CCG's have...  they're collectable, thus making them far more
expensive than a reasonable game ever would be.  They sell a lot more
low-level game pieces than the market really wants to buy, except that
they buy them in order to get access to the pieces they really want.

It's a bizarre economy, but apparently it works for the publishers, even
if it's at a disservice to the consumer and the entire industry.

--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
    [  General RP Discussion -- http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/  ]
Hey, I ran Windows the other day, and it didn't crash!
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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Thu

Nov 27
2003

13:26Z

Gaming success

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Carl D Cravens wrote:

CDC>The click-base games have the same fundamental flaw (where I'm concerned)
CDC>that CCG's have...  they're collectable, thus making them far more
CDC>expensive than a reasonable game ever would be.  They sell a lot more
CDC>low-level game pieces than the market really wants to buy, except that
CDC>they buy them in order to get access to the pieces they really want.

Well, you just have to buy singles at the game store.  Heck, if you were
smart, you'd just write the rules to use all the useless pieces.  After
all, if you're going to use click-base for everything, you need to have a
variety of scales.

...Which could lead to some oddities, if you go all-out and use individual
scales for each skill.

"What's your skill level in Lockpicking?"

"Uh...  not very good.  It's 'Rookie Gotham Policeman.' But I'm
'Spiderman' at Disarm Traps!"

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Fri

Nov 28
2003

03:06Z

Gaming success

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Karen J. Cravens wrote:

> Well, you just have to buy singles at the game store.

Which are priced far above what miniatures ought to cost.  Have you
actually looked at what the singles cost?

They're _almost_ as expensive as Games Workshop figures!

> Heck, if you were smart, you'd just write the rules to use all the
> useless pieces.

And play the game by myself or just within my own group.  Half the point
of the click-base games is the large community of players.

I probably wouldn't like playing with strangers anyway, so it's not that
much of a loss.  (And I think the movement systems of the first two
click-base games are totally whacked out.)

I've been tempted to buy the low-level "singles" in bulk online, remove
the click base and mount them on more traditional bases.  You can get a
very large number of miniatures for twenty bucks that way.

--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
    [  General RP Discussion -- http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/  ]
This tagline made from 100% recycled ASCII.
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BrianKoppi
Brian Koppi

Tue

Nov 25
2003

06:03Z

Gaming success

At 11:30 PM -0600 11/23/2003, Shane Knysh wrote:
>Right now I think the industry is in slow decline. There are a lot 
>of smaller companies
>producing product, but at smaller prices. The flagships are 
>shrinking, offering less and
>less.

In the vernacular of marketing we speak of market cycles. A quick overview:

Market Development Phase
Sales are low overall. Unit prices are high because production is too 
low to benefit from volume effects. Distribution is limited to a few 
channels. Product features are in a state of flux. There is little 
competition. The market has poor capitalization overall.

Market Expansion Phase
There is a rapid increase in sales and distribution. Competition 
increases. Products boast major new features. Prices begin to decline

Market Turbulence Phase
Market growth begins to slow. Products become more difficult to 
differentiate and are sold based on ancillary features. The number of 
distribution channels are reduced as margins shrink.

Market Maturity Phase
Prices are at the lowest the market can support. Competitive ranking 
is stable, with only a handful having significant market share.

Market Decline Phase
The total market size begins to decline. Product lines become limited 
or consolidated. Prices decline as competitors make last-ditch 
efforts before abandoning the market.

That's a fairly rough sketch, but it captures the gist. I'd have to 
agree that the RPG market has reached at least the later stages of 
maturity.

This doesn't mean that full-swing market decline is inevitable. By 
fundamentally redefining the product it is still possible to fuel 
market growth. However, this would involve changing more than just 
the setting or rules of an RPG system. Someone needs to redefine the 
"user experience" to make table-top RPGs relevant to a new 
demographic.

I haven't played in several years now, but I dip my fingers into 
industry news from time to time to take the pulse. Every once in a 
while I think about what could be done to change the experience of 
the people sitting around a gaming table (short of going electronic 
or LARP). I have to admit I haven't been able to dream up anything 
that might result in a decent business plan.

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