At risk of making GAMERS a shadow-blog for 20x20 (especially when it's in turn shadowing the Forge), here I go again: http://www.20by20room.com/2005/05/ftotw_perpetuat.html I'll start off by saying I'm usually the only gal in an otherwise all-guy group (and the few times I haven't been, it's generally been a negative experience... the others have all been just-here-cause-my-boyfriend-is and such). I've known of some gaming groups that are either mixed-sex or all-female, but from what I've known of them I've been inclined to keep my distance. (I've heard of some non-local ones that sound just fine, but keeping my distance there is still somewhat inevitable, and rather more literal.) -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 05:03:56PM -0500, Karen J. Cravens wrote: > I'll start off by saying I'm usually the only gal in an otherwise all-guy > group (and the few times I haven't been, it's generally been a negative > experience... the others have all been just-here-cause-my-boyfriend-is > and such). Exactly. My groups have almost all been mixed gender, but never more than 50% female. In talking with female gamers about it, the general assessment is that gaming is, by-and-large, a hostile environment for women, and as a result, many experiences WITH women turn out badly, thus propogating the expectation. Male gamers under 30 tend to be disgusted with "girlfriend" gamers, and fascinated with (established) female gamers, and either attitude isn't fun. Of course, any topic such as this is rife with sweeping generalizations, so take nothing I say as anything other than that. -- SwiftOne / Brett Sanger swiftone@swiftone.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
> I've known of some gaming groups that are either mixed-sex or all-female, > but from what I've known of them I've been inclined to keep my distance. > (I've heard of some non-local ones that sound just fine, but keeping my > distance there is still somewhat inevitable, and rather more literal.) One of the the games I run, I'm one of only two guys there. Out of a total of 6 people. And we may be adding another person, another woman. This one originally started out almost balanced but random chance has shifted things over the years. The other game I run is only *slightly* biased towards men, 4 out of 7. We dominate more in the game I'm playing in, where we're 5 of 8. All of these groups work just fine. In the past, I've been in all male groups and groups with only a few women. And really, while the dynamics have changed over the years, I think that's more a result of increasing maturity in the players and not the group composition. -- Michael Feldhusen mike_f@io.com caulay@gmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Mon, 16 May 2005, Michael Feldhusen wrote: MF>All of these groups work just fine. In the past, I've been in all male MF>groups and groups with only a few women. And really, while the dynamics MF>have changed over the years, I think that's more a result of increasing MF>maturity in the players and not the group composition. Yup, I was counting your groups among the ones I've heard good things about, but keep my distance from for purely geographic reasons. (Mike lives around 1600 miles from Phoenyx World Headquarters.) I can't really explain what it's been about local female roleplayers that has variously annoyed me or creeped me out. It's also, now that I start thinking of specific examples, also been a lot of years since I was involved in the broader roleplaying scene... in fact, most of it was while I was single, which I think changes the dynamics quite a bit. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 05:03:56PM -0500, Karen J. Cravens wrote:
> I've known of some gaming groups that are either mixed-sex or all-female,
> but from what I've known of them I've been inclined to keep my distance.
> (I've heard of some non-local ones that sound just fine, but keeping my
> distance there is still somewhat inevitable, and rather more literal.)
Hey -- coming to this discussion late, but what the heck.
Most of the gaming I've done has been in all-male groups. That was
certainly true with any regular gaming group when I was in junior high.
There was one (disastrous) time when I was supposed to DM a *ginormous*
group of people through a D&D module, and out of maybe 12 people there was
one girl present. The other plaers were monstrous to her, and it really
pissed me off. (She ended up leaving in tears.)
But that's junior high for you.
As an adult, most of my groups have been all-male, but twice there has been
a single female gamer. I was very happy the first time around, because
there had been a much more pernicious minority: I was the only cat person,
everybody else was a dog person. (In fact, that was true the second time as
well.)
All that aside-- I never really noticed anything different about the female
gamers "because" they were female. They were different, sure, but so was
everybody else. One was a more "casual" gamer, but was interested and fun
to play with. The other was a more serious gamer, and was also a lot of fun
to play with.
At the moment, my gaming group is three guys, soon to be only two guys, so
I'd be just as happy to find *anybody* compatable to join it.
I wouldn't object to trying a group of gamers where I was the only male
amongst a bunch of females. And, if that didn't work out, I wouldn't object
to trying it again, becuase it would probably just be a group thing. I
suspect that individual variation of people and groups is much larger than
any average difference between male and female gamers-- with the one
exception that from the reports we hear, there does seem to be a trend of
women being treated poorly in games.
-Rob
--
-=-=-= Rob Knop =-= rknop@pobox.com =-= http://www.pobox.com/~rknop =-=-=-
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Also late, and probably not directly on topic (is there a Gamers list archive?): Outside of my youth, when I started playing D&D with my sister and three of my neighborhood friends, I've played in or refereed two groups with women in the mix. One group was split 50/50, and was composed of 3 (sometimes 4) couples. The other group was composed of mostly men with sometimes none, sometimes one, and sometimes two women. In all cases I've noticed no difference in gaming style that could be attributed to male/femaleness. Virtually every difference seemed more driven by personality traits unrelated to gender. On a tangential note: It seems to me that more important to the success of a gaming group than a question such as gender is finding people you *want* to play with, and that are compatible with you in terms of personality and life outlook. I have only ever regularly gamed with friends, or strangers that were friends of other friends (and therefore were already vetted in terms of personality, sense of humor, and so on). I've only gamed a few times with people I didn't really know, and in every instance I can't say that I enjoyed myself. One of the things I never really liked about online shared-world-games is that you are forced to play with a bunch of people that aren't your friends. Sure, you can meet some nice people and make some new friends, but much of the time you just run in to total bastards. By my definition, that's called "Real Life", and for me the whole point of role-playing is to avoid *that* for a few hours of the week. Ciao, Joseph R. Dietrich joseph@joespace.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Sat, May 28, 2005 at 02:10:52AM -0500, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote: >In all cases I've noticed no difference in gaming style that could be >attributed to male/femaleness. Virtually every difference seemed more driven >by personality traits unrelated to gender. This has been my general experience as well. Of the groups I'm involved with, one has two female members and the other two are all-male. The only exception is that I haven't gamed with a female hack-and-slasher (though I have _met_ Mary Gentle :-) - then again, I haven't gamed with a male one since university. >I have only ever regularly gamed with friends, or strangers that were >friends of other friends (and therefore were already vetted in terms of >personality, sense of humor, and so on). Same here. I wouldn't hang around with people _just_ for gaming; there have always been enough gamers available (either in person or over the net) that I didn't have to take the first role-player or group I met. >I've only gamed a few times with >people I didn't really know, and in every instance I can't say that I >enjoyed myself. I've had some good games at conventions, but they're a very different sort of experience. >One of the things I never really liked about online shared-world-games is >that you are forced to play with a bunch of people that aren't your friends. >Sure, you can meet some nice people and make some new friends, but much of >the time you just run in to total bastards. By my definition, that's called >"Real Life", and for me the whole point of role-playing is to avoid *that* >for a few hours of the week. I hadn't looked at it that way, but I think that's quite valid; with a mailing-list game, you can go through the same process of feeling out fellow players as in a face-to-face one, but MMO games cannot allow that sort of filtering - they're much more like other video games in that way (with the trash-talking annoying kids, and so on) than they are like other role-playing games. -- Roger, gaming grognard Lots of role-playing stuff: http://tekeli.li/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Sat, 28 May 2005, Roger Burton West wrote: RBW>Same here. I wouldn't hang around with people _just_ for gaming; there RBW>have always been enough gamers available (either in person or over the RBW>net) that I didn't have to take the first role-player or group I met. In our case, sometimes it just means we don't game for awhile. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Fri, 27 May 2005, Robert A. Knop Jr. wrote: RAKJ>Most of the gaming I've done has been in all-male groups. That was RAKJ>certainly true with any regular gaming group when I was in junior high. RAKJ>There was one (disastrous) time when I was supposed to DM a *ginormous* RAKJ>group of people through a D&D module, and out of maybe 12 people there was RAKJ>one girl present. The other plaers were monstrous to her, and it really RAKJ>pissed me off. (She ended up leaving in tears.) RAKJ>But that's junior high for you. See now, I didn't actually find a roleplaying group until college, so even when I was the only girl present that was no trouble... heck, I was an engineering major at an engineering (with a side of nursing and law) school, so I was used to being the odd man out. So to speak. RAKJ>As an adult, most of my groups have been all-male, but twice there has been RAKJ>a single female gamer. I was very happy the first time around, because RAKJ>there had been a much more pernicious minority: I was the only cat person, RAKJ>everybody else was a dog person. (In fact, that was true the second time as RAKJ>well.) We're "animal people." One cat, one dog, one cat/ferret hybrid. (Oh, sure, they *say* he's a Dachshund. He's temporary, until Mom gets moved up here.) RAKJ>I wouldn't object to trying a group of gamers where I was the only male RAKJ>amongst a bunch of females. And, if that didn't work out, I wouldn't object RAKJ>to trying it again, becuase it would probably just be a group thing. I RAKJ>suspect that individual variation of people and groups is much larger than RAKJ>any average difference between male and female gamers-- with the one RAKJ>exception that from the reports we hear, there does seem to be a trend of RAKJ>women being treated poorly in games. I've had a minimal amount of it, mostly at conventions and usually quickly dealt with. College experience helped, plus I'm pretty obviously a geek. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Sat, 28 May 2005, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote: JRD>Also late, and probably not directly on topic (is there a Gamers list JRD>archive?): Yes. If you visit the hasn't-been-updated-in-a-coon's-age Gamers site at http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/ you'll find a menu bar, which has "archive" on it, and which will take you to the current archives. At the moment, that's http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/2005/05/ or so. JRD>In all cases I've noticed no difference in gaming style that could be JRD>attributed to male/femaleness. Virtually every difference seemed more driven JRD>by personality traits unrelated to gender. Sometimes. In the group I was thinking of, the women were all... well, giddy. Which is a personality trait, I guess, but not one I associate with the male of the species. JRD>On a tangential note: It seems to me that more important to the success of a JRD>gaming group than a question such as gender is finding people you *want* to JRD>play with, and that are compatible with you in terms of personality and life JRD>outlook. Right. But the problem I had, in these parts, was that gamers of my gender weren't compatible in terms of personality (I am reasonably sure I'm never giddy. I could be wrong, but I am *entirely* sure I do not pursue it as a way of life...) Now, it's a sort of self-selecting sample... I know gamers through other gamers, and gamers mostly know people that are compatible with themselves. As I said upthread, JRD>I have only ever regularly gamed with friends, or strangers that were JRD>friends of other friends (and therefore were already vetted in terms of JRD>personality, sense of humor, and so on). I've only gamed a few times with JRD>people I didn't really know, and in every instance I can't say that I JRD>enjoyed myself. I've had fun at some con games, though I'm generally not an outgoing enough person to do so reliably so it's very much a crap shoot. And it's been probably, uh, close to ten years since we went to a convention. We were *supposed* to have another Phoenyx Gathering, at GenCon this year, but that would probably have to happen without us at that point (Carl's job situation is up in the air, my sister's moving, my mother's moving, his mother's in and out of the hospital, und so weiter). JRD>One of the things I never really liked about online shared-world-games is JRD>that you are forced to play with a bunch of people that aren't your friends. JRD>Sure, you can meet some nice people and make some new friends, but much of JRD>the time you just run in to total bastards. By my definition, that's called JRD>"Real Life", and for me the whole point of role-playing is to avoid *that* JRD>for a few hours of the week. Yeah, if the Phoenyx ever went for that (HA!) (Okay, I shouldn't say that, it may happen *someday*, but it's certainly not plausible right now) we'd be picky about who we let in, or something. Trust metrics, maybe. The pay sites probably have that finely balanced between "kicking off paying customers" and "having paying customers quit in disgust." -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
Hi everybody, I'm Guy Hoyle, and I'm delurking here to ask a question that's not off-topic, I hope. I'm a player in a PBEM being run on Phoenyx.net, and I was wondering what's involved in setting up a PBEM of my own here? I love the dice-rolling feature especially. If you could direct me somewhere where I can get this information, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Guy Hoyle ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Sat, 28 May 2005, Guy Hoyle wrote: GH>I'm Guy Hoyle, and I'm delurking here to ask a question that's not GH>off-topic, I hope. I'm a player in a PBEM being run on Phoenyx.net, and Sort of. GAMERS is nominally the Phoenyx' general-discussion list, though as often as not the Fudge List, our 800-lb gorilla, fulfils that role. Or sometimes the Managers list, which is actually open to anyone. GH>I was wondering what's involved in setting up a PBEM of my own here? I GH>love the dice-rolling feature especially. If you could direct me GH>somewhere where I can get this information, I'd appreciate it. Right now, we don't have anything really published on the matter; we've been sort of on-hold for far longer than we've really planned in accepting new groups, since we didn't want to put new groups through the pain of a software change right after the sign up. Only, we've made a few exceptions, and games have been started, run, and died since we made that decision, so we've sort of started accepting new games again. (I may have mentioned it here before, but the new software would be greatly accelerated by someone or someones with skills in some or all of: Perl, Email::Store, MySQL, HTML/CSS, and general user-interface storyboarding. Oh, and someone to clean my house and watch my son for me while I work on it, and to handle all my obligations with Mom's move *and* my sister's, and to take care of Carl's mom when she gets home from the hospital. Oh... and a pony.) So to make a long story short, the highly formal method right now is to email Carl. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
Karen J. Cravens wrote: >So to make a long story short, the highly formal method right now is to >email Carl. > > > Thanks! I don't remember his email address off the top of my head; is it ccravens@phoenyx.net? Guy ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Sat, 28 May 2005, Guy Hoyle wrote: GH>Thanks! I don't remember his email address off the top of my head; is it GH>ccravens@phoenyx.net? Drop the first C and you'll actually hit all the Cravens' at the Phoenyx, which is presently just the two of us (the third is almost old enough for his own email address.... whitelist only). He's raven@. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Mon, 16 May 2005, Karen J. Cravens wrote: > I've known of some gaming groups that are either mixed-sex or all-female, > but from what I've known of them I've been inclined to keep my distance. The other group I'm in (as opposed to the one that Karen's also in) has two women in it. One of them seems like the "because my boyfriend's here" type, even though she's not seeing anyone. Sometimes she's focused and into the game, but other times she's perpetually distracted (and distracting), sending messages on her cellphone and other stuff like that. Of course none of us in that group are really locked in on the game, but she always seems a little more out of the groove than the rest of us. -Bill Hamilton ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
