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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Sun

Dec 18
2005

04:42Z

Character-development scenes...

I've got an area in which I'd like to learn what other people are 
doing, or not doing.

I'm watching the third season of _Mutant X_ (mundane mutant 
superheroes... it's mediocre, but it's superheroes).

Anyway, at the end of most shows, and especially after some loved 
minor character dies (usually in a sacrifice for Mutant X, or because 
Mutant X had to kill them to save someone else), we have this kind of 
scene that reveals the characters' feelings and reveals or reinforces 
some aspect of their personality.

Lexa's got what she calls her "list"... the list of people who won't 
be walking away the next time she runs into them.  It comes up in this 
episode that she's got the opportunity to off one of the guys in the 
top five, but she jeopardized the mission to get him and discussion of 
"the list" came up in the normal course of the plot.

Then, after it's all over and she's killed the guy, she's sitting in 
her room typing on the computer and Jesse (the more empathetic of the 
two guys) comes in to see if she's okay.  The list comes up and he 
asks what she's going to do when she kills everyone on the list. 
"Make another list."  "There's more to life than revenge, Lexa."  "Not 
for me, there isn't."  (Or something like that.)

So, this brings me to the point of this post... this kind of scene 
isn't a direct part of the plot.  It's not really something the GM can 
set up, because it was driven by character motivation.

Do your games have these kinds of scenes?  Who initiates them, and 
how?  Do you just say, "I want to go into Lexa's room and confront her 
on this list thing," or something like that?

Let's throw in a twist... we're using a variant of Keys (from _The 
Shadow of Yesterday_... 
http://www.anvilwerks.com/?The-Shadow-of-Yesterday and the rules are 
Creative Commons).  The way Keys work is that Lexa takes something 
like "The Key of the Vendetta" and she gets plot points every time a 
scene which involves her vendetta comes up.  This tells the GM that 
she wants scenes that let her deal with the vendetta, _and_ it 
encourages the player to pursue such scenes.  Since plot points are 
essential to the game, the players _need_ to pursue their Keys or 
they're going to fail during important scenes.

Thing here is, it's Lexa's Key being hit on in this scene... Lexa gets 
a small plot point bonus for defending her chosen path.  (She got a 
big bonus for lasering the evil corporate type earlier.)  So in our 
game, it would be _Lexa's_ player wanting to have this scene in which 
someone confronts her over "the list."  And that seems awkward to 
me to say, "I need a scene in which someone confronts my character 
over what she's done today."

Does anybody do anything remotely like this in either fashion... 
Jesse's player wanting the scene to confront the other character, or 
Lexa's player wanting the scene because it hits on her Key (and builds 
character depth)?

Tell me how scenes that look like this (regardless of how they get 
started) come up in your game, or if they don't come up at all.  I'm 
curious to know how other people handle this kind of thing.

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
     [        The Fudge List -- http://fudge.phoenyx.net/        ]
Gimme another clip--we're gonna change lanes!
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BillHamilton
Bill Hamilton

Sun

Dec 18
2005

05:13Z

Character-development scenes...

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Carl D Cravens wrote:
>
> Then, after it's all over and she's killed the guy, she's sitting in
> her room typing on the computer and Jesse (the more empathetic of the
> two guys) comes in to see if she's okay.  The list comes up and he
> asks what she's going to do when she kills everyone on the list.
> "Make another list."  "There's more to life than revenge, Lexa."  "Not
> for me, there isn't."  (Or something like that.)

> Let's throw in a twist... we're using a variant of Keys (from _The
> Shadow of Yesterday_...
> http://www.anvilwerks.com/?The-Shadow-of-Yesterday and the rules are
> Creative Commons).  The way Keys work is that Lexa takes something
> like "The Key of the Vendetta" and she gets plot points every time a
> scene which involves her vendetta comes up.  This tells the GM that
> she wants scenes that let her deal with the vendetta, _and_ it
> encourages the player to pursue such scenes.  Since plot points are
> essential to the game, the players _need_ to pursue their Keys or
> they're going to fail during important scenes.
>
> Thing here is, it's Lexa's Key being hit on in this scene... Lexa gets
> a small plot point bonus for defending her chosen path.  (She got a
> big bonus for lasering the evil corporate type earlier.)  So in our
> game, it would be _Lexa's_ player wanting to have this scene in which
> someone confronts her over "the list."  And that seems awkward to
> me to say, "I need a scene in which someone confronts my character
> over what she's done today."

Well, one could say that Jesse has a 'Key of Empathy' and his player 
wanted to hit on it, so he set up the scene between his character and 
Lexa.  Lexa's player just took the opportunity to get some freebie xp of 
her own.  :)

Yes, it seems that Lexa's key is driving the scene, because it's the more 
evocative key.  That doesn't mean that her player is the one that invented 
the scene.


-Bill
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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Sun

Dec 18
2005

17:42Z

Character-development scenes...

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Bill Hamilton wrote:

> Well, one could say that Jesse has a 'Key of Empathy' and his player
> wanted to hit on it, so he set up the scene between his character and
> Lexa.  Lexa's player just took the opportunity to get some freebie xp of
> her own.  :)

That's quite possible.

> Yes, it seems that Lexa's key is driving the scene, because it's the more
> evocative key.  That doesn't mean that her player is the one that invented
> the scene.

The point isn't to figure out a game situation to explain the scene in 
the show... it's to figure out how Lexa's player requests scenes 
involving her Key when other players don't initiate them.

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
     [  General RP Discussion -- http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/  ]
BASIC programmers never die, they GOSUB without RETURN.
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BillHamilton
Bill Hamilton

Mon

Dec 19
2005

15:15Z

Character-development scenes...

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005, Carl D Cravens wrote:
>
> The point isn't to figure out a game situation to explain the scene in
> the show... it's to figure out how Lexa's player requests scenes
> involving her Key when other players don't initiate them.

I'm not sure that particular key is easily activatable by the player.  I 
suppose she could be actively looking for the people on her list, and 
create scenes where she's trying to convince people to give her the 
information she needs.  Beyond that, it seems to be a very reactive key. 
It's useful when people on the list come up in the overall story, but not 
much more than that.


-Bill Hamilton



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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Mon

Dec 19
2005

22:57Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Bill Hamilton wrote:

> I'm not sure that particular key is easily activatable by the player.  I
> suppose she could be actively looking for the people on her list, and
> create scenes where she's trying to convince people to give her the
> information she needs.  Beyond that, it seems to be a very reactive key.
> It's useful when people on the list come up in the overall story, but not
> much more than that.

Maybe.  It's very much like Markus' Key of Revenge or whatever.  (Did 
you take the Key of Vengance?  I don't like the way it's written... 
you don't get any points for active pursuit unless you manage to hurt 
someone.  Since doing that is difficult, it's not a very rewarding 
Key.)

But doesn't that mean that to have scenes like this, the group 
is always going to have to have some character who drives this kind of 
scene?  Jesse always poking his nose into Lexa's business because he 
cares about her.  (It's Brennan who pokes his nose into Shalimar's 
business.  Brennan and Shalimar share equally in Jesse's business.)

In the previous season, when Emma was part of the group and Lexa 
hadn't arrived, there was a lot of equality in who initiated the "come 
see if you're okay / chew you out for being stupid" scenes.  Hm.  I 
wonder if you could say all of them have something like the Key of 
Fraternity... call it Key of the Team, since much of the talk in 
season three has been about is Lexa part of the team, does she want to 
be, do the others want her to be, etc.  So the characters with this 
Key get points whenever they do things to promote and preserve the 
team.

Yeah, that works.  And Lexa's got the Key of the Lone Wolf, 
the Key of the Secret Past, and stuff like that. :)

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
     [  General RP Discussion -- http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/  ]
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints.
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BillHamilton
Bill Hamilton

Tue

Dec 20
2005

01:14Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Carl D Cravens wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Bill Hamilton wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure that particular key is easily activatable by the player.  I
>> suppose she could be actively looking for the people on her list, and
>> create scenes where she's trying to convince people to give her the
>> information she needs.  Beyond that, it seems to be a very reactive key.
>> It's useful when people on the list come up in the overall story, but not
>> much more than that.
>
> Maybe.  It's very much like Markus' Key of Revenge or whatever.  (Did
> you take the Key of Vengance?  I don't like the way it's written...
> you don't get any points for active pursuit unless you manage to hurt
> someone.  Since doing that is difficult, it's not a very rewarding
> Key.)

He has Vengeance and a Mission (that mission being, conveniently, 
vengeance.  :)

> But doesn't that mean that to have scenes like this, the group
> is always going to have to have some character who drives this kind of
> scene?  Jesse always poking his nose into Lexa's business because he
> cares about her.  (It's Brennan who pokes his nose into Shalimar's
> business.  Brennan and Shalimar share equally in Jesse's business.)

To have inter-PC scenes like this come out of an NPC-focused key, it 
probably will be initiated by someone else.  Probably, it will be someone 
that has a key involving that PC (or the NPC, for that matter) and is 
looking for points of their own.



I'm wondering if we should retcon Fastlane and Stalker's conversation a 
bit, and say it took place at the coffee shop right before the fire. 
Stalker didn't react because an apartment exploding sort of puts a damper 
on a conversation.  :P


-Bill Hamilton
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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Tue

Dec 20
2005

02:11Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Bill Hamilton wrote:

> He has Vengeance and a Mission (that mission being, conveniently,
> vengeance.  :)

Ah, that'll cover all the bases then.

> To have inter-PC scenes like this come out of an NPC-focused key, it
> probably will be initiated by someone else.  Probably, it will be someone
> that has a key involving that PC (or the NPC, for that matter) and is
> looking for points of their own.

Sure, but if all or most of the team has the Key of the Team, then 
that would encourage spreading it around, instead of just one 
character always showing concern for everyone else.

> I'm wondering if we should retcon Fastlane and Stalker's conversation a
> bit, and say it took place at the coffee shop right before the fire.
> Stalker didn't react because an apartment exploding sort of puts a damper
> on a conversation.  :P

I almost recommended to Karen that she postpone that until the coffee 
shop scene.  If we retcon the conversation to that scene, it postpones 
the resolution of the conflict, which means you can have the conflict 
in the "now" after the fire, instead of trying to fit it into the 
past.  I'd really like to see you two play out that conflict, "bad 
acting" and all.  You guys might feel awkward, but I'm not seeing 
anything I don't like when you do roleplay... I expect it to be rough 
around the edges, and I think we'll get better at it with practice.

I think Stalker and Fastlane getting into it over this is just the 
kind of thing we need to breathe some real life into this game.  The 
stories have been good (if I can believe Karen and my own ego), but I 
think we can get a lot more out of it.

Think _Firefly_, and how important the intra-party conflict was to the 
show.  It was those relationships that _made_ the show... all the rest 
was just dressing.  (Geesh, I sound like an indie designer! 
Conflict!  Hard Choices!  Story Now! :)

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
     [  General RP Discussion -- http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/  ]
I *wish* I could remember where I parked my hard disk.
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BillHamilton
Bill Hamilton

Tue

Dec 20
2005

02:24Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Carl D Cravens wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Bill Hamilton wrote:
>
>> To have inter-PC scenes like this come out of an NPC-focused key, it
>> probably will be initiated by someone else.  Probably, it will be someone
>> that has a key involving that PC (or the NPC, for that matter) and is
>> looking for points of their own.
>
> Sure, but if all or most of the team has the Key of the Team, then
> that would encourage spreading it around, instead of just one
> character always showing concern for everyone else.

Yeah, Key of the Team would spread it around, but it's still going to be 
driven by someone with a Key connected to the PC rather than the PC with 
the external Key.

>> I'm wondering if we should retcon Fastlane and Stalker's conversation a
>> bit, and say it took place at the coffee shop right before the fire.
>> Stalker didn't react because an apartment exploding sort of puts a damper
>> on a conversation.  :P
>
> I almost recommended to Karen that she postpone that until the coffee
> shop scene.  If we retcon the conversation to that scene, it postpones
> the resolution of the conflict, which means you can have the conflict
> in the "now" after the fire, instead of trying to fit it into the
> past.  I'd really like to see you two play out that conflict, "bad
> acting" and all.  You guys might feel awkward, but I'm not seeing
> anything I don't like when you do roleplay... I expect it to be rough
> around the edges, and I think we'll get better at it with practice.

I think part of the reason I froze up was because _I_ was expecting it to 
be an OOC summary of what happened, not Fastlane telling Stalker what 
happened.


> Think _Firefly_, and how important the intra-party conflict was to the
> show.  It was those relationships that _made_ the show... all the rest
> was just dressing.  (Geesh, I sound like an indie designer!
> Conflict!  Hard Choices!  Story Now! :)

Well, yeah, they're good things to focus on.  But, it seems that a lot of 
people focus on those concepts to the exclusion of other parts of the game 
that are just as important.



-Bill Hamilton
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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Tue

Dec 20
2005

03:13Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Bill Hamilton wrote:

BH>I think part of the reason I froze up was because _I_ was expecting it to 
BH>be an OOC summary of what happened, not Fastlane telling Stalker what 
BH>happened.

It was sort of both, was the problem.

BH>Well, yeah, they're good things to focus on.  But, it seems that a lot of 
BH>people focus on those concepts to the exclusion of other parts of the game 
BH>that are just as important.

Yeah, I plan to have important things like, oh, bodies regularly bouncing 
off the forward port featured in _Gavilan_ right along with the 
intra-party conflict.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Tue

Dec 20
2005

04:22Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Bill Hamilton wrote:

> Yeah, Key of the Team would spread it around, but it's still going to be
> driven by someone with a Key connected to the PC rather than the PC with
> the external Key.

Right.  Which is why I was analyzing the whole team, to see if there 
was "enough" of that happening.

But I also don't see anything wrong with Lexa's player say, "Hey, ya 
know, somebody really ought to confront Lexa with this."  Not all the 
time, but when one of the PCs has just killed someone in cold blood, I 
think it could be justified.  If none of the players say anything, I 
as the GM am going to bring it up.

> I think part of the reason I froze up was because _I_ was expecting it to
> be an OOC summary of what happened, not Fastlane telling Stalker what
> happened.

And Karen got caught between summary and roleplaying and had trouble 
sorting out what she was wanting to do on the spot.  That whole thing 
went awkward, and I'd like the chance to do it again.

> Well, yeah, they're good things to focus on.  But, it seems that a lot of
> people focus on those concepts to the exclusion of other parts of the game
> that are just as important.

Don't worry... I think beating people up will always be an important 
part of my games. :)  Maybe less in some settings than others, but 
when it comes down to it, I like that aspect of gaming... I like 
action-adventure.  Beating people up, solving mysteries, exploring... 
they're all important to me.  And I realized this is what has me 
looking askew at some of the indie games, because some leave too much 
of these things out.  I think _Polaris_ may fail for me on these 
grounds, but I want to give it a try anyway.  (Just need to round up a 
couple willing victims and find a date to play.)

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
  [  Wichita RP Community Resource -- http://www.wichitagamers.com/  ]
Let's not bicker and argue over =who= killed =who=.
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RogerBurtonWest
Roger Burton West

Mon

Dec 19
2005

14:50Z

Character-development scenes...

On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 10:42:55PM -0600, Carl D Cravens wrote:

>Do your games have these kinds of scenes?  Who initiates them, and 
>how?  Do you just say, "I want to go into Lexa's room and confront her 
>on this list thing," or something like that?

It's pretty rare in the games I run, but it does happen. I think there's
a general feeling among the people I game with that it's grabbing
spotlight time rather than participating fully in the _group_ activity,
so we're relatively reluctant to initiate that sort of thing, but it has
certainly been known.

This is entirely informal - there's no in-game reward for it. I am
inclined to like it that way, since it means that the scenes that do
occur are unforced and arise cleanly from the character concept.

-- 
Roger, gaming grognard
Lots of role-playing stuff: http://tekeli.li/
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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Tue

Dec 20
2005

02:43Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Roger Burton West wrote:

RBW>This is entirely informal - there's no in-game reward for it. I am
RBW>inclined to like it that way, since it means that the scenes that do
RBW>occur are unforced and arise cleanly from the character concept.

That's my biggest problem with the whole Fudge-Point (etc.) issue... 
either things are working right, and the rewards are redundant, or things 
are working wrong, and that's it's own anti-reward.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Tue

Dec 20
2005

04:29Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Karen J. Cravens wrote:

> That's my biggest problem with the whole Fudge-Point (etc.) issue...
> either things are working right, and the rewards are redundant, or things
> are working wrong, and that's it's own anti-reward.

"The play is the reward."  Except right now, I think we (our group) 
are trying to learn to play differently, and we're entering some 
territory that is uncomfortable at first, but we know we want to go 
there, at least to some degree.  I think having explicit mechanics to 
encourage going there are worth trying out... if only as training 
wheels to be discarded later.

With the Key mechanism, we have explicitly stated, "This is where the 
players and GM are expected to go."  The things _I'd_ like to have 
happen in the game aren't happening, because they require player 
initiation, and the players aren't going there on their own.  As GM, I 
can't quite demonstrate what it is I want the players to be doing, 
because I don't have a PC of my own.  I think having the Keys rules 
will help with that.

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
     [        The Fudge List -- http://fudge.phoenyx.net/        ]
Hail to the sun god, He sure is a fun god, Ra! Ra! Ra!
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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Tue

Dec 20
2005

03:09Z

Character-development scenes...

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Carl D Cravens wrote:

CDC>I almost recommended to Karen that she postpone that until the coffee 
CDC>shop scene.  If we retcon the conversation to that scene, it postpones 

My guy wouldn't do that!

No, really... I couldn't think of any good reason why Fastlane wouldn't 
*immediately* tell Stalker.  "Yeah, that guy I captured a few weeks ago?  
I ever mention he was the one killed your family?"  No, that was something 
that needed said *right away*.  Well, as soon as he was safely in official 
custody to keep Stalker from doing anything he'd regret, anyway.

CDC>the resolution of the conflict, which means you can have the conflict 
CDC>in the "now" after the fire, instead of trying to fit it into the 
CDC>past.  I'd really like to see you two play out that conflict, "bad 
CDC>acting" and all.  You guys might feel awkward, but I'm not seeing 
CDC>anything I don't like when you do roleplay... I expect it to be rough 
CDC>around the edges, and I think we'll get better at it with practice.

Except... I'm not really seeing a good reason for that to happen in 
public, and a lot of good reasons why it shouldn't.

CDC>I think Stalker and Fastlane getting into it over this is just the 
CDC>kind of thing we need to breathe some real life into this game.  The 
CDC>stories have been good (if I can believe Karen and my own ego), but I 
CDC>think we can get a lot more out of it.

Yeah.  But I'd sooner re-do the scene as happening in the Sooper-Sekrit 
Base That Everyone And His Dog Knows About, before the fire.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

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discussion > ravenrpg > main

GAMERS is about roleplaying games (including sims) and almost anything of interest to the average roleplayer.
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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Tue

Dec 20
2005

04:31Z

RavenRPG: Re-doing "the scene"

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Karen J. Cravens wrote:

> Yeah.  But I'd sooner re-do the scene as happening in the Sooper-Sekrit
> Base That Everyone And His Dog Knows About, before the fire.

I'm all for that if Bill is.

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
     [  General RP Discussion -- http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/  ]
Hail to the sun god, He sure is a fun god, Ra! Ra! Ra!

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