Will just said something interesting on the Fudge List: "The basic idea is that the more rules you have and the more codifed those rules are, the more the balance of power shifts away from the GM and toward the players." (http://www.phoenyx.net/fudge/2005/12) Carl has describe Forge-type games as being this way, though tending to address the social contract directly, rather than providing rules-for-every-situation: rules to protect the players from bad GMs. I tend to look at rules (in the ideal case) as serving a different purpose: codifying the gameworld so that players (including the GM) are all on the same page. That is, making sure we're all imagining things the same way, to avoid what we've come to call the "I drive the van off the cliff!" "Cliff? What cliff?" syndrome, where mismatched assumptions lead to snapping the suspenders of disbelief for some or all involved. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Karen J. Cravens wrote:
> I tend to look at rules (in the ideal case) as serving a different
> purpose: codifying the gameworld so that players (including the GM)
> are all on the same page. That is, making sure we're all imagining
> things the same way,
This is where I was having trouble running Fudge very freeform.
As a specific example, when I wasn't paying attention to the numbers,
I had a lot of trouble keeping in mind how _light_ Stalker's armor
was... it could be penetrated by an M-16, and I kept imagining it as
being much more robust than that. I found it easier to say, "What's
your armor value" than to say, "Can your armor be penetrated by... an
M-16? A 9mm pistol? How about a frag grenade?" And then I'm dealing
with the _player's_ idea of how powerful these things are vs my idea
of it... and then the player wonders something that punches through a
brick wall can't penetrate his armor, when he really thinks it should.
I found it much, much easier to just assign numbers to these things
and use the numbers. I can just use the numbers and move on, knowing
that we all agree how these things work because we wrote them down in
a concrete way.
--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net) Gamers List Owner
[ Trim Your Quotes! ]
Where am I . . . and why am I in this handbasket?
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On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Carl D Cravens wrote: CDC>As a specific example, when I wasn't paying attention to the numbers, CDC>I had a lot of trouble keeping in mind how _light_ Stalker's armor CDC>was... it could be penetrated by an M-16, and I kept imagining it as CDC>being much more robust than that. I found it easier to say, "What's CDC>your armor value" than to say, "Can your armor be penetrated by... an CDC>M-16? A 9mm pistol? How about a frag grenade?" And then I'm dealing CDC>with the _player's_ idea of how powerful these things are vs my idea CDC>of it... and then the player wonders something that punches through a CDC>brick wall can't penetrate his armor, when he really thinks it should. Yeah, sufficiently advanced technology gets all weird. CDC>I found it much, much easier to just assign numbers to these things CDC>and use the numbers. I can just use the numbers and move on, knowing CDC>that we all agree how these things work because we wrote them down in CDC>a concrete way. Except then we get all caught up in analyzing whether the numbers are right, and edge and corner cases where they're plainly silly, and blah blah blah. And have we got concrete numbers on "being burninated by exploding drug users" yet? -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Karen J. Cravens wrote:
> Except then we get all caught up in analyzing whether the numbers are
> right, and edge and corner cases where they're plainly silly, and blah
> blah blah.
Okay, so the numbers aren't entirely concrete, because they're
experimental... we're playtesting. I'll sit down and work those over
in more detail... look at the prior body of work on firearms in Fudge,
do some extrapolation, maybe pull out 3G^3 because math is fun, and
knock out an article for Fudge Factor at the same time.
I can fudge the corner cases without any remorse... if it's obvious
that the result is silly, it's easy to make up a result that isn't.
I don't have a problem with that.
> And have we got concrete numbers on "being burninated by exploding drug
> users" yet?
10, if you nudged him with your toe. 6 if you were standing near and
this is the moment that you and the GM both realize that your new
character doesn't have any armor.
--
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net) Gamers List Owner
[ The Fudge List -- http://fudge.phoenyx.net/ ]
Hey! Lower your landing gear! !@#$*!?% NO HARRIER
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On Sun, 25 Dec 2005, Carl D Cravens wrote: CDC>I can fudge the corner cases without any remorse... if it's obvious CDC>that the result is silly, it's easy to make up a result that isn't. CDC>I don't have a problem with that. Why is it only true for the corner cases, then? CDC>10, if you nudged him with your toe. 6 if you were standing near and CDC>this is the moment that you and the GM both realize that your new CDC>character doesn't have any armor. Heh. I'd just like to take this moment to publically remind you that Fastlane has no armor at the moment either. (He does have better-honed survival instincts, however.) -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005, Karen J. Cravens wrote: > Why is it only true for the corner cases, then? Because they don't show up that often and produce obviously silly results, which makes it easier to fiat not-silly results. > Heh. I'd just like to take this moment to publically remind you that > Fastlane has no armor at the moment either. But Fastlane can stop time and calmly walk away from the expanding fireball. Or he can shift out of phase with the timeline, where the flames won't hurt him. The Green Ghost, who isn't really a ghost, can do neither. But he can throw magic throwing stars at the flames. -- Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net) Gamers List Owner [ Wichita RP Community Resource -- http://www.wichitagamers.com/ ] ZenCrafters: Total enlightenment, in about an hour. ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Mon, Dec 26, 2005 at 09:50:09AM -0600, Carl D Cravens wrote: >On Mon, 26 Dec 2005, Karen J. Cravens wrote: >> Why is it only true for the corner cases, then? >Because they don't show up that often and produce obviously silly >results, which makes it easier to fiat not-silly results. The reason I use rules at all is to give consistency to my whimsy (and, to some extent, that of the players). That's really all I ask of them; rules that do more than that tend (to my mind at least) to "get in the way" and prevent the players (including the GM) from having as good a time as they might. R -- Roger, gaming grognard Lots of role-playing stuff: http://tekeli.li/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
On Mon, 26 Dec 2005, Carl D Cravens wrote: CDC>But Fastlane can stop time and calmly walk away from the expanding CDC>fireball. Or he can shift out of phase with the timeline, where the CDC>flames won't hurt him. The Green Ghost, who isn't really a ghost, CDC>can do neither. But he can throw magic throwing stars at the flames. Well, provided his reflexes are good enough, yeah. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net ---------------------------------------------------------------- GAMERS Home Page: http://www.phoenyx.net/gamers/
