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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Thu

Jan 5
2006

18:27Z

Frustrated by indie designers

>From Vincent Baker's blog (author of _Dogs in the Vineyard_)...

http://www.lumpley.com/comments.php?entry=146

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You remember how big a deal it was when we smashed open the GM's power 
over everything-but-the-characters? We were like, "this thing where 
the GM creates and controls everything-but-the-characters, solely and 
exclusively and all by his lonely, this thing is broken, plus 
stultifying, plus it's not even true." You know how good the games are 
that came - and keep coming - out of that?

My dangerous idea for 2006 is: we should do the same to the player's 
power over the character. It'll be just as good.

I want a Universalis, a Polaris, an Under the Bed, and a Capes 
illustrating _playerless_ play.
=====

And I think at that point, it really _would_ be just a bunch of guys 
sitting around and co-writing a novel, when nobody even owns any 
particular character.

While there are many definitions of "roleplaying" I think you've moved 
firmly outside the boundaries of roleplaying when you remove the 
_role_ from the game.  When I am no longer a player playing a role, 
but a collaborative story teller with equal access to all the 
characters, I'm no longer roleplaying.  _Polaris_ is only one step 
removed from that, but I think even _Polaris_ would be badly broken by 
eliminating the player's unique authority over his personal character. 
In _Polaris_, there is no GM and everyone plays many characters... but 
each has their personal protagonist that nobody else gets to take 
primary control of.

Of course, I don't agree with Vincent's "breaking the GM's control" 
thing to start with... I find it odd, the attitude that indie game 
designers have to tear down the past in order to build the future. 
But I'm getting a bit fed up with some (some, not all) indie 
designers' attitudes of superiority, like they're doing some really 
big, important thing.

There's some useful ideas coming out of the Forge... but in my mind, 
some of these guys are breaking the fundamental things that make 
roleplaying fun for me, and they're telling me that they way I want to 
play really sucks.  "95% of roleplayers aren't having fun."

I love that they're exploring new territory and trying to create 
"better" games...  I dislike that some of them cannot do it without 
becoming arrogant and annoying.

Sometimes I think they confuse being passionate with being right.  If 
you're passionate enough, then whatever Zennish bullcrap you spout 
about your game design must be true.

-- 
Carl D Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)                Gamers List Owner
      [        The Fudge List -- http://fudge.phoenyx.net/        ]
ERROR: Unable to comprehend lame tagline.
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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Thu

Jan 5
2006

18:42Z

Frustrated by indie designers

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Carl D Cravens wrote:

CDC>Of course, I don't agree with Vincent's "breaking the GM's control" 
CDC>thing to start with... I find it odd, the attitude that indie game 
CDC>designers have to tear down the past in order to build the future. 
CDC>But I'm getting a bit fed up with some (some, not all) indie 
CDC>designers' attitudes of superiority, like they're doing some really 
CDC>big, important thing.

They're kind of cute to watch, though... it's sort of like watching 
college kids get all passionate about politics.  They'll be embarrassed 
about that "phase" later, most of them.

Which sentiment probably just means I'm old.  (I didn't have a political- 
activist period in my college years, though.  As my mother often points 
out, I was *born* an old lady.)

At any rate, John Kim had some interesting things to say about authority 
vs authorship in one of his blog entries, and I kind of wonder if that 
isn't the sort of thing that discussions like this conflate.  When I get 
the chance to read his essay in detail, I'll post some thoughts on it.

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

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GmDslOnlyNet
Mike Harvey

Thu

Jan 5
2006

22:54Z

Frustrated by indie designers

Me too.

(sigh)

I spent some time today at the Forge, but left feeling frustrated and tired.




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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Fri

Jan 6
2006

15:48Z

Frustrated by indie designers

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Mike Harvey wrote:

MH>I spent some time today at the Forge, but left feeling frustrated and tired.

At the Forge itself, mostly I just feel (as I mentioned to Carl last 
night) that it's turned into a meta-discussion.  Or a 
meta-meta-discussion.  That is, mostly arguments over whether the Forge is 
cool or not.  As I said, I imagine the theory forums were shut down as 
much in response to the people who (thought they) *agreed* with the PTB as 
those that disagree.

No, it's the blogs where I see the most egregious hubris.  Which, on a 
meta-level, ties back to the discussion about blogs vs. mailing lists (or 
web forums, same difference):

http://raven.phoenyx.net/mutterings/20060105.html

-- 
Karen J. Cravens  silver@phoenyx.net

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