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Discussion, mostly technical, about running Phoenyx groups goes here. Hypotheticals and wishlists go in stakeholders.
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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Wed

Jun 27
2001

21:54Z

Tonight's Chat, 8:30 CDT

Just a reminder that we're having our weekly chat concerning the
improvement of the Phoenyx and you're all invivted to participate.
We're having some pretty good discussion, but we'd like to have more input
from the people who use the Phoenyx and help make it successful.

This week's topic is "What our members want, Part 2".

Logs of the previous chats can be seen at...
   http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/volunteer.html

You can learn about how to access the MOO (and even log into it directly
from the web) at...
   http://www.phoenyx.net/chat/

-- --------------------------------------------------------------
Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners

MeeraBarry
Meera Barry

Wed

Jun 27
2001

23:38Z

Tonight's Chat, 8:30 CDT

>Just a reminder that we're having our weekly chat concerning the
>improvement of the Phoenyx and you're all invivted to participate.

I would love to, but I'm having dinner with my in-laws.   Next week [knock 
on keyboard] if my new place doesn't interfere.

In the meantime, I'd like to see if I can make some comments based on what 
I saw in the logs, and see if they help out any.

REGARDING: The Physical Metaphor of the Phoenyx

Are you sure you don't want to go for the "mythical" metaphor?  To some 
extent, you are redefining yourselves, so you are in the phoenix's stage of 
"rebirth."

(Off-Topic: Of course, I found myself a few months ago redefining my site 
in broad biblical terms: Genesis, being "character creation", Exodus being 
links, Proverbs being the NPCs... luckily, I stopped there.)

Just a thought; I agree that the physical metaphor is probably the easiest 
to grasp and navigate around.

REGARDING:  Inclusion versus Exclusion

Since I'm the one to bring it up, I should probably really delve into this 
a bit.

When discussing community, one of the major inspirational forces is 
inclusion.   I am certain (not even guessing here, just _certain_) that 
we've all been in groups which had brilliant ideas that never got off the 
ground because while the idea was excellent, the motivation was mixed, the 
opportunities weren't focused, and well, you know what happened.  (Heck, 
let's not talk about the IRPS. [sigh])  [And yes, I'm still IN three of 
these groups... as much as I'd like to contribute to them, I am learning 
quickly my volunteering time takes away from my gaming time takes away from 
my family time takes away from my personal time...etc.  Add in the level of 
responsibility you have to each group.  Augh.]

When we look at _why_ this happens, we end up with a variety of 
reasons.  I'll tell you that the number two reason is "lack of focus."  The 
number one reason is "lack of incentive."   As much as we WOULD gain if we 
could organize, it's not always enough up-front.

Vision + Skills + Incentives + Resources + Plan of Action = Change

No Vision? Skills + Incentives + Resources + Plan = Confusion
No Skills? Vision + Incentives + Resources + Plan = Anxiety
No Incentives? Vision + Skills + Resources + Plan = Resistance
No Resources? Vision + Skills + Incentives + Plan = Frustration
No Plan? Vision + Skills + Incentives + Resources = Going Nowhere

This is actually a leadership exercise, not a community building one, so 
let me try to drag these topics together.

We know that the Phoenyx requires a LOT from people in order to gain 
inclusion.  You're already working on the "exclusion;" with your choosing 
to allow a game here or not, with your rules, even with your 
recommendations.  Now, this is with GMs.  Is it required of the players as 
well?  Should it be?

Alright, I'm bringing up my own forbidden topic.  Without naming the 
organization I used to be in (and presumably was the head of, but that's 
another story) let me explain one of our "vision goals."

We had a problem; yes, we had a mailing list of almost 13,000 
people.  (That's a big mailing list!)  That included e-mails, addresses, 
phone numbers... and a comments section as to the type of gaming they 
liked.  But, when it came time to get submissions for the newsletter, 
voting input, heck, even polls, if we were getting 1%, we counted ourselves 
lucky.

There were two sides to the solution.
One group of people believed that everyone should be removed from the 
mailing list if they didn't contribute.
The other group believed we had to market better to ourselves to get more 
information.

I was kind of mixed.  I don't think we could get the first, as much as I 
wanted it... (and a lot of very neat "volunteer experience points" plans 
were invented.)  The second was frustrating because none of us had the real 
marketing know-how to make it work.  Yeah, we could try to send a GURPS 
something to everyone who said they liked GURPS, but was it meeting our 
needs as an organization?

So, inclusion.  Inclusion makes you feel part of an "elite" community.  "As 
a member of [the Phoenyx] I am special."  What do we do to create this 
feeling?  Is it found in what is provided, the individuals, the flame-wars 
[just kidding], or...?  What is unique about it, if anything?

These questions will also lead you into "branding" and "marketing" your 
community.

Maybe it helps if we back up a step.  What inspires us to be included?  You 
need to look at home, first, before you try waving your flags outside.

I think you do have your poll question number one:
         What brought you to the Phoenyx?

When you have people joining, do you ask them, "What do you want from 
us?"  Remember, you need to choose what moments you can get the good 
evaluation information.  [Heck, once every (six) months, I send out a "GM 
evaluation" to my players.  It's part of their role to fill it out.]   To 
some extent, you have to assume everyone's lazy and won't fill things out 
unless it's handed to them, silver platter with pen on the side.   And even 
then, only if it's required.

[Great, now I'm seeing this [United States reference] IRS-like form for GMs...]

As for exclusion, I think that is a responsibility to keep a level of 
quality and thematic control over the site.  Whether it's moderation or 
rules for what you require, or even a type of person, you need to be 
discriminatory.  You need to control (and in doing this, know what you WANT 
to control) to keep out what you're not looking for...be it porn (awwww), 
politics, or polytheists.  [grinning widely]  Should there be a style of 
game or gameplay?  (Not with what you've got so far, but maybe you want to 
change and advertise a new emphasis?)

(Heck, I'm thinking of requiring a spelling test for my PBeM players 
anymore.  I don't recommend going that far...(but isn't it tempting? [grin]))

REGARDING: Unique Resources

 > Silver says, "Consider what you can actually deliver to your members: do
 > you have access to unique resources?"

Why my game joined the Phoenyx:

Yes, it was the mailing list.  But I could have had that from a dozen other 
places.  I could NOT have gotten:

1) the same personal contact / well-thought-out instruction I had in 
setting it up.   I remember reading the log and seeing that a lot of people 
had problems.  When I had problems, I asked questions and got them 
answered.   That, however, takes administration time.

When filling out the form I know I interpreted some of the questions 
differently than they were intended.  Examples are good (and I think there 
were a few.)   How often do you review the submission form?

2) the same challenges (I am _very_ much in favor of the questions I was 
asked about the game.  It requires me to have a level of responsibility and 
it made me very much feel like I was in "elite" territory.)

Again, I felt better thinking everyone I would be a GM with on the Phoenyx 
had to answer the same questions... it made me feel like part of an expert 
crowd.

3) the same identification with a site I have always considered a premier 
gaming site.

4) the feeling of community.  Sorry, I may run 10+ YahooGroups but I am 
only reluctantly a YahooGroup user.

I've been thinking about running a game on the Phoenyx for YEARS.  Maybe it 
was the legends of other games that ran on it.  Maybe it was the people 
associated with it.  Certainly it was a combination of those two things and 
a little more.

Now that I'm on the Phoenyx, I'm really looking at the abilities I have as 
GM to better administrate my game.  Things I've thought I might want:

1) A "blog" like place for players to OOC chat or bring up their favorite 
quotes.  Something that doesn't have to be done in mail, that's a matter of 
typing in and pressing "submit."  Even if it gets me in trouble, later.

2) Something to help me write a weekly "this is what happened" 
newsletter.  Something that pre-formats it, and/or asks regular questions 
(maybe changing from weekly to monthly) and allows you to do a search 
through the logs to get _just_ the right quote.   Something that connects 
to a banner, and archives itself.

3) A "pictures" section for locations, NPCs, and PCs open to all players to 
add links or upload pictures of a certain thumbnail size.  With folder 
options, too.

4) A "GM's commentary" section where I can muse on the events.  (Maybe 
connected to number 2.)

5) What about something like "submit-it" used to do that connects to all of 
the open RPG link pages?  (Uggh! Run and hide!)

6)  What about player pages?  Could there be a template I could lay out 
easily that would just post player responses to my character creation quiz 
without me having to do all the HTML?

7) What about web-to-mail forms?

Of course, I can put all of these up on my own web pages...but are any of 
these ideas tempting?  They're all a ton of work, but I was just 
musing.  Brainstorming.

Gotta go pack my office...

\\ Mb \\
I've got thousands of ideas and critiques, and only 1000 seconds a day to 
work on them...

-- --------------------------------------------------------------
Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners

MJasonKnight
M. Jason Knight

Thu

Jun 28
2001

19:23Z

Tonight's Chat, 8:30 CDT

On 27 Jun 01, at 18:38, Meera Barry wrote:

> Are you sure you don't want to go for the "mythical" metaphor?  To
> some extent, you are redefining yourselves, so you are in the
> phoenix's stage of "rebirth."

Mythical limits us to fantasy, which could be off-putting for Buffy 
and wrestling fans.  No, wait, that's not the problem.  Oh yes, the 
problem could be that it's off-putting for non-D&D players, which 
could lead to genre/system imbalance.
 

-- --------------------------------------------------------------
Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners

MeeraBarry
Meera Barry

Thu

Jun 28
2001

19:43Z

Tonight's Chat, 8:30 CDT

>Mythical limits us to fantasy...


You don't think there isn't a mythos of cyberspace? A mythos of the old 
west?  A mythos of the starfaring races?

[grinning]

I know, it's besides the point.  I think it's a question of recognition 
(even the die-hard Star Wars players are going to be familiar with the Hero 
with 1000 Faces, I'd hope!) and practicality, which is why I threw my vote 
back into the "physical" metaphor.

\\ Mb \\
Next up: The Jerry Springer mythos!

-- --------------------------------------------------------------
Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners

CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Thu

Jun 28
2001

22:04Z

Tonight's Chat, 8:30 CDT

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, M. Jason Knight wrote:

> > Are you sure you don't want to go for the "mythical" metaphor?  To

> Mythical limits us to fantasy, which could be off-putting for Buffy
> and wrestling fans.  No, wait, that's not the problem.  Oh yes, the
> problem could be that it's off-putting for non-D&D players, which
> could lead to genre/system imbalance.

Part of the reason we chose a gaming convention metaphor for the MOO is
because we can fit all genres into a gaming convention.  I was looking at
it being a kind of "magical portal" to other worlds, so it is magical, if
not directly inspired by myth.  In a way, it's sort of a modern gamer
myth.

In an earlier chat, I'd suggested extending this metaphor to the Phoenyx
web pages for much the same reason.  I think we need a bit of "flavor" in
the site, and the gaming convention metaphor seemed to fit there as well.
The "start here" becomes the "information desk".  That kind of thing.

I'm not sure how serious I am about it... I was just brainstorming.  The
gaming convention *isn't* a common experience, especially for the
simming crowd, so that probably shoots it down right there.

-- --------------------------------------------------------------
Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners

JonathanWalton
Jonathan Walton

Thu

Jun 28
2001

23:55Z

Tonight's Chat, 8:30 CDT

>I'm not sure how serious I am about it... I was just brainstorming.  The
>gaming convention *isn't* a common experience, especially for the
>simming crowd, so that probably shoots it down right there.

Well, http://www.comicon.com tried the same thing with a "comic book 
convention" set up, but they encountered the same problem.  The new 
generation of comic book readers has never visited a convention.  They 
still get traffic, but it's based on the quality of their material, not the 
attractiveness of their setup.

Jonathan

-- --------------------------------------------------------------
Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners

SJAlmond
S.J. Almond

Fri

Jun 29
2001

16:01Z

Tonight's Chat, 8:30 CDT

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, M. Jason Knight wrote:

> Mythical limits us to fantasy, which could be off-putting for Buffy
> and wrestling fans.  No, wait, that's not the problem.  Oh yes, the
> problem could be that it's off-putting for non-D&D players, which
> could lead to genre/system imbalance.

It wouldn't put all non-D&D players off - it attracted me after all!


Steve

-- --------------------------------------------------------------
Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners

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