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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Thu

Feb 27
2003

04:40Z

MGR: Philosophical questions

Carl and I were having another one of our discussions on Why PBeM Doesn't
Work, and touched briefly on the problem of scenes that hang while waiting
for a key player to respond.

Do any of you have deadlines after which you forge ahead with an assumed
response?  If so, how well does it work?  If not, what *do* you do?

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MagnusBjerner
Magnus Bjerner

Thu

Feb 27
2003

06:50Z

MGR: SV: Philosophical questions

Precisely that. One deadline per week, giving ample time for everybody to contribute at least something to the current scene. I have no qualms about writing the dialogue myself, although that is not what the game is *supposed* to be -- I could just as well write a book then, couldn't I?

To answer your question: I don't let the game hang in mid-air forever. After the deadline, I make up some percentages based on what I know about the character and throw a few dice. This is just to keep myself from feeling that I control everything, I find it less contrived. Then I type out the dialogue to the best of my abilities. Non-active players get no experience points. I only award participation, period, with bonus points for good/superior/excellent roleplaying.

I find it works pretty well. Active players keep at it, while less active players have grown tired after about three months, just like everybody said they would. I have a perfectly normal PBEM I suppose... 

Best wishes,

/Magnus B, Cragbain GM





> Carl and I were having another one of our discussions on Why PBeM Doesn't
> Work, and touched briefly on the problem of scenes that hang while waiting
> for a key player to respond.
> 
> Do any of you have deadlines after which you forge ahead with an assumed
> response?  If so, how well does it work?  If not, what *do* you do?
> 

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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Fri

Feb 28
2003

01:37Z

MGR: SV: Philosophical questions

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Magnus Bjerner wrote:

> Non-active players get no experience points. I only award participation,
> period, with bonus points for good/superior/excellent roleplaying.

You give out experience points in a PBeM?  That's a new one to me...
anybody else do this?

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ErisReddoch
Eris Reddoch

Fri

Feb 28
2003

06:21Z

MGR: SV: Philosophical questions

On 02/27/03 at 07:37 PM,  Carl D Cravens  said:

>On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Magnus Bjerner wrote:

>> Non-active players get no experience points. I only award participation,
>> period, with bonus points for good/superior/excellent roleplaying.

>You give out experience points in a PBeM?  That's a new one to
>me... anybody else do this?

In one I do, but only because the players wanted a "D&D Experience." I don't in my others.

Eris
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MagnusBjerner
Magnus Bjerner

Fri

Feb 28
2003

08:43Z

MGR: SV: SV: Philosophical questions

> You give out experience points in a PBeM?  That's a new one to me...
> anybody else do this?
> 

Yes, because it is actually a Rolemaster campaign that I've used IRL. Each rally point, as it were, along the way equals a set amount of experience points. So there are "solving the plot"-points, plus "flavour"-points for bringing yuor character to life. (Sliding away from the main thread slightly: basically, I sit down and try to think what adjectives come to mind when I describe a certain character in the game. If they come to mind easily, and if they describe a certain complexity inside this person, then I dish out lots of points. 2-D characters get average points, while people who only participate with really predictable actions, like "I draw my sword and attack the nearest bad guy" get quite few points -- unless they happen to play a mindless killer, of course.) We play through the adventure just like we would at a table, only it takes a lot longer. If my game turns out to become blessed with longevity, I want the characters to develop accordingly. Therefore XPs.

/Magnus B



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> Game(s): Fudge, Worldmaking, Fantasy Co-Editor, Phoenyx Co-Owner
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> 

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BruceHumphrey
Bruce Humphrey

Fri

Feb 28
2003

10:46Z

MGR: SV: Philosophical questions

>
>
>>Non-active players get no experience points. I only award participation,
>>period, with bonus points for good/superior/excellent roleplaying.
>>    
>>
>
>You give out experience points in a PBeM?  That's a new one to me...
>anybody else do this?
>  
>
I do give glory points and development points, yes. It is a Pendragon 
campaign, after all...

They get them according to the rules, plus tweaking on my part.  Usually 
I end using stuff from the PBeM on OTB games, and it helps a lot to have 
done it first in a PBeM.

Bruce
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MJHarnish
MJ Harnish

Fri

Feb 28
2003

13:49Z

MGR: SV: Philosophical questions

On 27 Feb 2003 at 19:37, Carl D Cravens wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Magnus Bjerner wrote:
> 
> > Non-active players get no experience points. I only award participation,
> > period, with bonus points for good/superior/excellent roleplaying.
> 
> You give out experience points in a PBeM?  That's a new one to me...
> anybody else do this?

I do but it's all done behind the scenes.  Since I'm using 3rd ed. 
D&D as the basis for my campaign, the XPs are necessary in order 
to gauge progress, particularly since I have characters who have 
entered the game at different times and b/c I also only award active 
participation players have progressed at significantly different rates.



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Chuk
Chuk Goodin

Fri

Feb 28
2003

16:48Z

MGR: SV: Philosophical questions

On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 07:37:18PM -0600, Carl D Cravens wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Magnus Bjerner wrote:
> 
> > Non-active players get no experience points. I only award participation,
> > period, with bonus points for good/superior/excellent roleplaying.
> 
> You give out experience points in a PBeM?  That's a new one to me...
> anybody else do this?

I don't in my Fudge game, but I do let characters develop.  So far they 
haven't done much except get some new equipment and make some contacts, 
but they're going to learn a few more skills, too.

My GURPS game is pretty darn slow right now (I think we've had about five 
posts since November or so), so XP would be pretty much pointless.

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MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Fri

Feb 28
2003

02:50Z

MGR: SV: Philosophical questions

At 08:37 PM 2/27/2003, Carl D Cravens wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Magnus Bjerner wrote:
>
> > Non-active players get no experience points. I only award participation,
> > period, with bonus points for good/superior/excellent roleplaying.
>
>You give out experience points in a PBeM?  That's a new one to me...
>anybody else do this?

If you're PBeMing D&D or even GURPS or HERO, there are XP. :)


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KarenCravens
Karen Cravens

Sun

Mar 2
2003

03:59Z

MGR: Philosophical questions

On Thu, 27 Feb 2003, Michael J. Feldhusen wrote:

MJF>If you're PBeMing D&D or even GURPS or HERO, there are XP. :)

Only if enough time passes...

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MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Thu

Feb 27
2003

12:57Z

MGR: Philosophical questions

At 11:40 PM 2/26/2003, Karen J. Cravens wrote:
>Carl and I were having another one of our discussions on Why PBeM Doesn't
>Work, and touched briefly on the problem of scenes that hang while waiting
>for a key player to respond.
>
>Do any of you have deadlines after which you forge ahead with an assumed
>response?  If so, how well does it work?  If not, what *do* you do?

I *had* been letting /Rumors/ just hang, but that was killing the 
game.  I'm now going to a 2 day rule: If you don't respond within two days, 
I'll respond for you.  If I end up responding for you "a lot" (subjective 
decision on my part), then I'll just NPC your character.


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ErisReddoch
Eris Reddoch

Thu

Feb 27
2003

19:44Z

MGR: Philosophical questions

Michael J. Feldhusen wrote:
> At 11:40 PM 2/26/2003, Karen J. Cravens wrote:
> 
>>Carl and I were having another one of our discussions on Why PBeM Doesn't
>>Work, and touched briefly on the problem of scenes that hang while waiting
>>for a key player to respond.
>>
>>Do any of you have deadlines after which you forge ahead with an assumed
>>response?  If so, how well does it work?  If not, what *do* you do?
> 
> I *had* been letting /Rumors/ just hang, but that was killing the 
> game.  I'm now going to a 2 day rule: If you don't respond within two days, 
> I'll respond for you.  If I end up responding for you "a lot" (subjective 
> decision on my part), then I'll just NPC your character.

PBEM's can work, and continue actively for years and years. I 
have been refereeing the Akus Moby PBEM for just short of 8 years 
now, and it is 4 years younger than a Startrek PBEM I play in. 
The trek game started life back on Fidonet and transition to the 
internet in '96 or so. Yes, I've lost several players over the 
years, that is to be expected, but still have 3 that have been 
with me from the very beginning.

Players that go AWOL *are* a problem that can certainly stall a 
game. One way to handle it is to have "turns" with deadlines for 
"moves" and if a player(s) misses a turn the Ref either lets them 
  "just stand there" or NPC's them.

I have tried to stay away from fixed turns, except in combat. 
What I do is just let players (and me as NPC's) post back and 
forth for a while, then every few days consolidate what has been 
posted and post a summary/moving-along post. If a player is 
absent and their PC *needs* playing he gets played by me until 
they get back, however, I do try to shift absent player's PC to 
the background where they don't have to do much and bring the 
PC's of those present to the foreground of scenes.


Eris
AKUS Moby Ref

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MJHarnish
MJ Harnish

Thu

Feb 27
2003

16:41Z

MGR: Philosophical questions

On 26 Feb 2003 at 22:40, Karen J. Cravens wrote:

> Carl and I were having another one of our discussions on Why PBeM Doesn't
> Work, and touched briefly on the problem of scenes that hang while waiting
> for a key player to respond.
> 
> Do any of you have deadlines after which you forge ahead with an assumed
> response?  If so, how well does it work?  If not, what *do* you do?

In general, I don't have any stated deadlines but I usually give my 
players 2-3 days to respond to posts before moving things ahead.  
How well does it work?  It works fine for keeping the game moving 
but obviously isn't the ideal methods:  I'd rather have players being 
the prime motivators but sometimes that just doesn't happen.  Then 
again, pace isn't really critical as long as it matches what the 
players and GM want.

What I've found is that out of my 10 players, about half are regular 
posters who have become the main characters in the evolving 
story.  They tend to be the ones who make the major decisions   
The other half post less frequently and so have become more or 
less supporting characters; while they are still part of the game they 
simply don't contribute to the pace or major decisions of the game 
but rather its feel.

My biggest headache are combat sequences (which are fairly rare) 
which can really bog down the game and just don't *feel* right.  I 
have yet to find a method that simulates the fast pace and 
uncertainty of combat while still working within the mechanics of 
PBeM.

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MikeF
Mike Feldhusen

Thu

Feb 27
2003

17:30Z

MGR: Philosophical questions (combat)

At 11:41 AM 2/27/2003, MJ Harnish wrote:

>My biggest headache are combat sequences (which are fairly rare)
>which can really bog down the game and just don't *feel* right.  I
>have yet to find a method that simulates the fast pace and
>uncertainty of combat while still working within the mechanics of
>PBeM.

My solution to that one, skip them.  That is, skip doing the fights 
interactively.  Have the players post a strategy for the fight, make 
several die rolls (what ever dice you want) and then write something based 
on that information.  If the dies rolls are bad, they don't do well, if 
they are good, they clean up easily.  Of course, the key is that the 
players may not *know* what would be good or bad when they roll, so they 
are kept in suspense until you post the outcome.

This works best with free-form systems, for things like D&D, you may want 
to sit down with someone else and play out the combat (taking notes along 
the way) and your players have to be comfortable with this as well.


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ErisReddoch
Eris Reddoch

Thu

Feb 27
2003

20:18Z

MGR: Philosophical questions (combat)

Michael J. Feldhusen wrote:
> At 11:41 AM 2/27/2003, MJ Harnish wrote:
> 
> 
>>My biggest headache are combat sequences (which are fairly rare)
>>which can really bog down the game and just don't *feel* right.  I
>>have yet to find a method that simulates the fast pace and
>>uncertainty of combat while still working within the mechanics of
>>PBeM.

> My solution to that one, skip them.  That is, skip doing the fights 
> interactively.  Have the players post a strategy for the fight, make 
> several die rolls (what ever dice you want) and then write something based 
> on that information.  If the dies rolls are bad, they don't do well, if 
> they are good, they clean up easily.  Of course, the key is that the 
> players may not *know* what would be good or bad when they roll, so they 
> are kept in suspense until you post the outcome.
> 
> This works best with free-form systems, for things like D&D, you may want 
> to sit down with someone else and play out the combat (taking notes along 
> the way) and your players have to be comfortable with this as well.

I don't run fights very often, but when I do I don't let them bog 
down. For fights I *do* run turns with fixed deadlines, short 
deadlines.

When a fight is getting ready to start I stop the game for a 
moment and post a "heads up!" that we are going into turn mode. 
I've had players post right then telling me, "I can't keep up 
right now, here's what I want my PC to do." and for them I NPC 
their PC using their instructions as a guideline.

Then after having given a warning to "gear up"...I post a 
snapshot of the opening mini-scene of the fight with a 
"drop-deadline" of no more than 24 hours. I expect to see a post 
of what each PC wants to *attempt* to do (with alternatives) in 
my mailbox within 24 hours...I wait no longer. If a player 
doesn't get in a post I lightly NPC their PC, usually nothing or 
defensive actions. If a player posts a general summary of their 
intentions, then I also NPC their PC using their instructions as 
guidelines. If the player posts specific instructions without 
alternatives then I have their PC follow those instructions, 
unless events make the instructions *really* stupid, then I do a 
check against some stat of that PC to see if they continue to be 
stupid or do something else. I consolidate the posts, add in what 
the NPC's attempted to do, determine what really happened using 
rolls *and* judgment, and post an "end of turn" summary in 
narrative form. The end of turn post summarizes of what really 
happened during the preceding mini-scene and sets up the next 
mini-scene of the fight, complete with deadline. And we iterate 
until the fight is over.

It's really all very free-form with me doing all of the rolling 
and using judgment as I go through the "what really happened" 
portion of the exercise. I have done it this way with Fudge, 
Traveller and D&D PBEMS, and, although messy, it seems to work.

Eris

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MJHarnish
MJ Harnish

Fri

Feb 28
2003

13:49Z

MGR: Philosophical questions (combat)

On 27 Feb 2003 at 14:18, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> I don't run fights very often, but when I do I don't let them bog 
> down. For fights I *do* run turns with fixed deadlines, short 
> deadlines.
[snip..]
This is sort of what I currently do.  I have players post their strategy 
and actions over the next 30 seconds or so and then handle the rest 
myself.  This has worked quite well except that it take s a long time.  
A typical combat turn will take me 30-60+ minutes to put together 
and that's quite a bit of time for what is essentially 30 seconds of 
game time.  Part of the problem though is that I have 10 players 
and that's a lot of different actions to handle.  As a result I've 
decided that the next 1-2 players that leave the game won't be 
replaced since I would prefer a slightly smaller, more manageable 
group.  That said, I have been blessed with a remarkably stable 
group for the past year or so:  We've lost only 1 player in that time 
and no one has gone AWOL for more than a 4-5 days in that time.



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CarlCravens
Carl D Cravens

Fri

Feb 28
2003

01:34Z

MGR: Philosophical questions

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Karen J. Cravens wrote:

> Carl and I were having another one of our discussions on Why PBeM Doesn't
> Work, and touched briefly on the problem of scenes that hang while waiting
> for a key player to respond.

One of the ideas in this discussion had to do with the number of
players... the more players, the more likely it is that one or more of
them will delay the game.

I think I saw this in Rumors... when I _did_ get around to responding,
some of the people I was trying to interact with would also take days to
respond.  (No one was as bad as I was. :)  This made it hard to get any
kind of momentum going and was a factor in my losing interest in the game.

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ErisReddoch
Eris Reddoch

Fri

Feb 28
2003

22:36Z

MGR: Philosophical questions

Carl D Cravens wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Karen J. Cravens wrote:
> 
> 
>>Carl and I were having another one of our discussions on Why PBeM Doesn't
>>Work, and touched briefly on the problem of scenes that hang while waiting
>>for a key player to respond.
> 
> One of the ideas in this discussion had to do with the number of
> players... the more players, the more likely it is that one or more of
> them will delay the game.

Yes, from my experience that's true. One way to help deal with 
that is to run threads within the game where each thread has only 
a few players involved. There are times when I'm running a thread 
for each individual PC, although, that is *really* time 
consuming. I've found that small groups of 2 to 4 PC's do really 
well, and by shifting which 2 to 4 are working together you can 
keep things interesting. Of course, like any multi-threaded 
program, coordinating the input and output among the threads is a 
continuing problem. 

For example, in Akus, recently, I had the PC's broken into 4 
small groups of PC's, each off on their own doing things. One was 
investigating an act of terrorism, two were doing search and 
rescue ops in separate vehicles and the other was a pair of PC's 
meeting each other as they gear up to join the main group. The 
groups rarely interacted with each other, so it was almost like 4 
separate games for a while there. Now that the "emergency" is 
over all except the fourth group are back together on their 
starship. I'll try to hustle them through their flight to the 
planet where the two new PC's will join them. Then I'll break 
them into groups again: one group will have to deal with finding 
parts and making repairs, a second group will deal with finding 
cargo/freight/passengers, several in the main group will have to 
meet with their 'patrons' and get orders, and there might even be 
another group involved in a separate adventure that involves a 
group of NPC's they will have met aboard the ship. Six months 
later (real time) we'll have covered a week of game time and the 
ship will jump for their next port of call....and hopefully 
everyone will have had a good time.

Eris

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TimHall
Tim Hall

Thu

Feb 27
2003

19:17Z

MGR: Philosophical questions

Karen J. Cravens wrote:

>Do any of you have deadlines after which you forge ahead with an assumed
>response?  If so, how well does it work?  If not, what *do* you do?

I'm probably guilty of leaving things to 'hang', but I find a reminder
for the errant player often brings a response.
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