For those of you who aren't following the blog (which is most of you), I've just turned on most of the new software over on the new/test server. Not all of it's operational, since this server is still our only operational mail handler, but it's a milestone. This software has been a *really* long time in development. And will probably spend a good long time in testing, but that's theoretically the downhill side of things, at least. I have, however, been so wrapped up in that that I haven't really done much toward thinking about the "social" side of things. I've mentioned the Sooper Sekrit Project, but it's been so sekrit that only Carl and I know anything about it, and even *we* don't know much. I started it for two reasons: one, I want to try some new things, but I don't want to change the Phoenyx (at least not unless the new things work really, really well), and two, "Phoenyx" is kind of hard to spell and non-descriptive. (It was very descriptive, when the site ran on a tetchy Color Computer with homebrew auto-answer wired onto a Modem I, but back then you didn't have to spell it, you just had to remember 721-4417.) Er, anyway. So, I want to do two things: one, nail down exactly what the Phoenyx *is* about so we can define it, and two, nail down exactly what the SSP is *going to be* about so we can more properly launch it. To that end, I'd like to put together a *small* group to talk things over. I'm not sure yet if the talking-over will be via chat (time zones have historically been a problem for that) or email, but we can decide that later. Right now, based on past participation, I'd like to see Tim "Kalyr" Hall, and Mike "Guy Who Puts Up With Us In His Guest Room When We Visit Boston" Feldhusen, somebody from the Fudge List (Carl mentioned moderator busyness so I may put out a more general call there), and maybe one or two more. Overall, I'm not looking to "change" the Phoenyx much, outside of raising it from its current torpor and starting to accept new games again, but there are some potentialities raised by the new software that I think we'll want to look at. Well, and: you guys *are* ready for all the folks who like webforums and not mailing lists to suddenly be able to participate, right...? -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): The Whole Phoenyx Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Karen J. Cravens wrote: KJC>Overall, I'm not looking to "change" the Phoenyx much, outside of raising KJC>it from its current torpor and starting to accept new games again, but Oh, I forgot to mention: I'm going to be setting a target date for new-software turnover sometime in late September (the 25th is looking likely), unless testing goes really weird. We won't start up new games (at least, we won't solicit them, though anybody who pesters us for one and is willing to put up with a software change almost immediately will probably be accepted) until then. -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): The Whole Phoenyx Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:39:09PM -0500, Karen J. Cravens wrote: > Well, and: you guys *are* ready for all the folks who like webforums and > not mailing lists to suddenly be able to participate, right...? I know people like that are out there, and I see them all the time, but... ...there are parts of the human midn that I *REALLY* do not understand. (I've always thought that a webform is rather like driving in a screw with a hammer. With enough force, it gets the job done, and it's a lot easier to teach somebody to use a hammer once than it is to later get them to figure out how to use a screwdriver... but it's never pretty, and it's never elegant.) -Rob -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Robert A. Knop Jr. wrote: RAKJ>(I've always thought that a webform is rather like driving in a screw with a RAKJ>hammer. With enough force, it gets the job done, and it's a lot easier to RAKJ>teach somebody to use a hammer once than it is to later get them to figure RAKJ>out how to use a screwdriver... but it's never pretty, and it's never RAKJ>elegant.) Having mostly written this one, I don't fully agree. The problems with a webform are chiefly in the area of loading time - short of using Java (or maybe JavaScript), you pretty much have to recreate the whole screen when you want to update something. You can do a little with framage, but that's awkward too. On the plus side, though, and this is important when you check things frequently, you've generally got the whole thread, or a good chunk of it, on the screen at a time. Now, this can also be part of the problem, in that you have to sometimes hunt for the new stuff, and you don't always *want* to re-scan the whole thread. Now, there's no reason why an email- or newsreader can't display things like this - GMail does, though it's technically web-based (but only as a substrate for some heavy Javascript, so it doesn't entirely count IMHO). But they don't, and I sometimes suspect it's one of the reasons many people don't like mailing lists - if you regularly delete your email, and you read mail frequently, you have no context. That may be fine for personal conversations, where you're (generally!) paying close attention to what's going on, but when you're a spectator, it's too easy to ignore conversations, and then when you do see something that interests you, it's too hard to pick back up. One of the major pluses to the web-based system is its portability. You and I may have no trouble getting a shell from anywhere and firing up the same Pine or trn or whatever from anywhere, but Average Joe wants to be able to read from work/school/home interchangeably. Gamehawk, when all its features are functioning right, will hopefully negate most of the web forum disadvantages. It's not, for starters, modeled on the (fundamentally flawed, IMHO) WWWBoard, though in spots it can bear a resemblance that should make WWWBoard(-descendent) users comfortable. It's more the hybrid offspring of XNews, Pegasus, and GMail. It maintains a newsrc file (and I'll probably make an import/export function for us techheads who want to read via XNews at home but use a server-based version while travelling), so it knows *exactly* what you've read, and can show or hide read messages based on saved preferences or a simple override click. Loading speed's the only issue, but so far that's not bad at all, even on my old slow-to-render-things P133. On the server side, it's all assembled from preprocessed chunks, so that doesn't take long. And there's always NNTP. Though somebody really needs to take on that project and support more extended-NNTP functions. Works fine with XNews, but it appears a lot of lesser newsreaders are unable to function without certain commands, which I'm too busy to implement right now. Oh, and RSS/Atom, too, for those who prefer the mostly-read-only version. -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): The Whole Phoenyx Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Karen J. Cravens wrote:
> The problems with a webform are chiefly in the area of loading time -
That and the fact that most webforum authors seem to have zero background
in using bulleting boards, mailing lists or newsgroups. They're
reinventing the wheel from scratch, whereas Karen and I have been using
online forums since before some of these webforum authors could read. I
started in '86.
vBulletin is one of the best webforums out there right now, and it's pay
for. Yet just one major version ago, reading a single forum went like
this. (And it does so on The Rocketry Forum, where they are still on that
old version.)
Go into my personal profile, click on the first subscribed group.
Recieve an index of threads sorted in most-recently-posted first.
Scroll down to find the first thread with new messages.
Click on "go to first unread message" button.
Wait to receive twenty messages on the screen, whether I've read them or
not.
Read new messages by scrolling down.
Look for the 5-point type in the lower-left corner that tells me if there
are unread messages on a page after this one. If so, click on the "next
page" link. Otherwise, click on the "next thread" link on the right.
When those twenty messages load, click on the "first new message" button
to jump down to the new messages.
Continue doing this. If I post a new message, the current thread becomes
me the most recent thread and I can't click "next thread" any more.
Return to the index, try to figure out where that thread used to be in the
list and click on the next unread thread.
When I run out of threads, jump back a screen, then click the forum name
to jump back up to the index to get to the only place I can mark the forum
as read. Quickly check the most recently posted thread to ensure that no
new messages have been posted since I read it, then click the "mark all
read" button and hope that nobody posted a new message during that
operation, because it'll get marked read even though I never saw it.
Now, click on my personal profile button to get back to my list of
subscribed forums.
Blah. No way to read a few new messages and get called away... mark all
new messages in a forum as read or mark none of them.
Navigation through new messages changes based on how long the thread is
and whether you posted a message of your own.
And people paid good money for this software!
A good web forum will...
Not load messages you've already seen unless you ask.
Mark as read any message displayed on your screen, but...
...let you mark it as "unread" in a painless manner.
Give you one-button navigation for reading through all unread messages in
the groups you want to follow.
These things aren't very intuitive to someone who has never experienced
message groups outside of webforums, but they're darned obvious to people
who have been reading email for 18 to 20 years.
-- --------------------------------------------------------------
Game(s): Fudge, Worldmaking, Fantasy Co-Editor, Phoenyx Co-Owner
Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 11:10:03AM -0500, Carl D Cravens wrote: > Blah. No way to read a few new messages and get called away... mark all > new messages in a forum as read or mark none of them. I HATE that. > A good web forum will... > > Not load messages you've already seen unless you ask. > Mark as read any message displayed on your screen, but... > ...let you mark it as "unread" in a painless manner. > Give you one-button navigation for reading through all unread messages in > the groups you want to follow. While I have an overwhelming preference for email and NNTP compared to any web board I've ever seen, I might quite like something like this... -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): Alien Light Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 11:30:54AM -0500, Chuk Goodin wrote: > > A good web forum will... > > > > Not load messages you've already seen unless you ask. > > Mark as read any message displayed on your screen, but... > > ...let you mark it as "unread" in a painless manner. > > Give you one-button navigation for reading through all unread messages in > > the groups you want to follow. > > While I have an overwhelming preference for email and NNTP compared to any > web board I've ever seen, I might quite like something like this... This would help. But the "loading time" issue to which Karen refers is something that's probably fundamental to using a web-based forum. There's also the fact that no matter how slick the interface, it is pre-dictated to you, whereas if only a protocol is specified (as in the case of email or NNTP), you can choose your client from some range of options. (Not everybody has the same taste in clients. I still use purely text-based mail readers (mutt) and news readers (gnus inside emacs).) But Carl's point is well taken-- part of the reson those of us hate web boards so much is that all current extant implementations suck. I still don't think that the web is the "right" way to do a forum, but I understand that it makes life a lot easier for a lot of people (who don't want to learn anything other than a web browser, or who don't have the option of installing custom client software for fill-in-the-blank protocol). -Rob -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Robert A. Knop Jr. wrote: RAKJ>But the "loading time" issue to which Karen refers is something that's RAKJ>probably fundamental to using a web-based forum. There's also the fact RAKJ>that no matter how slick the interface, it is pre-dictated to you, RAKJ>whereas if only a protocol is specified (as in the case of email or RAKJ>NNTP), you can choose your client from some range of options. (Not RAKJ>everybody has the same taste in clients. I still use purely text-based RAKJ>mail readers (mutt) and news readers (gnus inside emacs).) I'm using HTML::Template to back the forums (and everything else on the site) so at least there's a lot of option for customization... I probably won't allow people to dynamically create their own templates, but at least it'll let us do some pretty wide-ranging differentiation (not even counting what we can do with CSS after that). I imagine there'll be a very vanilla fast-rendering version with no tables, since I like text-based *browsers*, too. (It's pretty unlikely I'll use the web forum regularly, much less with Lynx, but darnitall it should at least be *possible*.) RAKJ>I still don't think that the web is the "right" way to do a forum, but I RAKJ>understand that it makes life a lot easier for a lot of people (who RAKJ>don't want to learn anything other than a web browser, or who don't have RAKJ>the option of installing custom client software for fill-in-the-blank RAKJ>protocol). Or who want to maintain their read-messages pointers across multiple platforms. That's such a big deal, I've learned, that I'm almost surprised no one's implemented this into NNTP (I suspect the trend toward outsourced, centralized servers is the only reason it hasn't been). I've been trying to figure out how to make it possible; the import/export is as close as I've gotten. I want to dump my XNews rcfile at the Phoenyx when I leave town and have it use and update it while I read via the web on the road, then download it back for XNews when I get home. Ideally, it should be so easy to use that someone could do it every morning and evening if they want to read from work, but short of writing my own client I'm not sure how. The other half of the web forum advantage is having the entire message base to pull from, and IMAP can probably go a long ways toward doing that. That's something I want to incorporate in the very near future, but it's a nontrivial protocol. -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): The Whole Phoenyx Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 02:20:01PM -0500, Karen J. Cravens wrote: > RAKJ>I still don't think that the web is the "right" way to do a forum, but I > RAKJ>understand that it makes life a lot easier for a lot of people (who > RAKJ>don't want to learn anything other than a web browser, or who don't have > RAKJ>the option of installing custom client software for fill-in-the-blank > RAKJ>protocol). > > Or who want to maintain their read-messages pointers across multiple > platforms. That's such a big deal, I've learned, that I'm almost > surprised no one's implemented this into NNTP (I suspect the trend toward > outsourced, centralized servers is the only reason it hasn't been). I'm sure your right about the latter. NNTP is probably dying, and Usenet may be dying too for all I know. I do manage to keep my read message points across multiple machines, though; I just scp that little .newsrc file around. Although, nowadays, in practice, I don't even do that. Since my newsreader is text based, I just ssh into the machine where I keep my .newsrc file and run emacs there. -Rob -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Robert A. Knop Jr. wrote: RAKJ>I'm sure your right about the latter. NNTP is probably dying, and RAKJ>Usenet may be dying too for all I know. It's... changing. It's actually made somewhat of a comeback (or so I'm told) now that the spammers have pretty much left it alone. (Or at least not made a concerted effort to bypass CleanFeed.) Usenet, that is. I'm not sure but what a lot of people read via Google Groups, so NNTP seems to be dying. Which is annoying; aside from the fact that there's no really good front-end to it (i.e. you connect up to the Phoenyx' server and how do you know where to start?), it's a very useful protocol. RAKJ>I do manage to keep my read message points across multiple machines, RAKJ>though; I just scp that little .newsrc file around. Although, nowadays, RAKJ>in practice, I don't even do that. Since my newsreader is text based, I RAKJ>just ssh into the machine where I keep my .newsrc file and run emacs RAKJ>there. I run XNews off of a directory on the Linux server, and when I'm gone for an extended period (usually to Mom's), I just download the whole shebang as is. It's a nuisance, though (relative to the worth of Usenet, anyhow), so I seldom do it for the typical long-weekend visit. -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): The Whole Phoenyx Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Robert A. Knop Jr. wrote: > But the "loading time" issue to which Karen refers is something that's > probably fundamental to using a web-based forum. I've toyed with some ideas on how to "preload" the next set of messages in a predictive fashion. You're looking at new messages 5 to 10 right now, so in the background it pre-caches 11-15. If you click "next new messages", the wait is minimal because your browser has already "seen" that page, even though it didn't display it to you. It's only when you go off and do something else that you have to wait. I'm not sure how to do it without resorting to JavaScript, though... but since pre-caching would be a non-essential feature, we might be able to do something like that. Those who allow JS would get the benefit, those who don't wouldn't lose any essential feature. > I still don't think that the web is the "right" way to do a forum, but I I don't either, but there are a lot of people who won't use anything else. I think we have a large, untapped potential userbase out there that won't read the Fudge List because it's an email list. (I'm afraid I'm going to have to rename it to the Fudge Forum, though.) -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): Fudge, Worldmaking, Fantasy Co-Editor, Phoenyx Co-Owner Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Carl D Cravens wrote: CDC>I've toyed with some ideas on how to "preload" the next set of messages in CDC>a predictive fashion. You're looking at new messages 5 to 10 right now, CDC>so in the background it pre-caches 11-15. If you click "next new CDC>messages", the wait is minimal because your browser has already "seen" CDC>that page, even though it didn't display it to you. It's only when you go CDC>off and do something else that you have to wait. Render time, and not loading time, really seems to be the issue, though. CDC>I don't either, but there are a lot of people who won't use anything else. CDC>I think we have a large, untapped potential userbase out there that won't CDC>read the Fudge List because it's an email list. (I'm afraid I'm going to CDC>have to rename it to the Fudge Forum, though.) Pfft. Think "craigslist." -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): The Whole Phoenyx Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
Carl D Cravens wrote: >> I still don't think that the web is the "right" way to do a forum, but I > >I don't either, but there are a lot of people who won't use anything else. >I think we have a large, untapped potential userbase out there that won't >read the Fudge List because it's an email list. I still have painful memories of the time immediately after Compu$erve turned their RPG forum into a pr0n site, and I tried (and failed) to move the other half of Kalyr to The Phoenyx. Several of the players balked and point blank refused. Those same players are perfectly satisfied with UBB (cough!). -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): Kalyr Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Chuk Goodin wrote: CG>While I have an overwhelming preference for email and NNTP compared to any CG>web board I've ever seen, I might quite like something like this... That's what we're shooting for: a web board (really, it's a web-based mail/news reader, but we won't tell the web board junkies that) that people like even if they *do* know there's something other than "teh intarweb." NNTP is generally my preferred method, just because XNews can yoink a previously-read message off the server (or, for Usenet proper, DejaGoo if necessary) if I've forgotten what it said. I'm using GMail for some mailing lists to see if the archiving function there accomplishes the same thing, and it seems to. But all this talk's not what the "focus group"'s about... in fact, that's what the gamehawk blog was *supposed* to be about, but it's devolved into me talking to myself about the trivia of getting it written, which is useful to me in keeping my place, but not to too many other people in actually discussing features. And in case anybody's eyes have glazed over, I'll start a new thread about what this new group is for... -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): The Whole Phoenyx Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 09:47:47AM -0500, Karen J. Cravens wrote: > And there's always NNTP. Though somebody really needs to take on that > project and support more extended-NNTP functions. Works fine with XNews, > but it appears a lot of lesser newsreaders are unable to function without > certain commands, which I'm too busy to implement right now. Is that why trn doesn't work? What would you need to get that going? -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): Alien Light Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Chuk Goodin wrote: CG>Is that why trn doesn't work? What would you need to get that going? There's a (slightly outdated, now) entry at http://www.phoenyx.net/tools/wikitest/gamehawk/59 that describes what trn's sending, and what isn't supported. If you look at the nntpd code (http://www.phoenyx.net/code/), you can see that I've added LIST FORMAT, and maybe (I can't remember) LIST GROUP, but I gave up when trn started insisting on wildmats. Far as I can tell, nobody's got a wildmat library on CPAN, and I didn't have time nor inclination to roll my own just now. -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Game(s): The Whole Phoenyx Listowner tools are found at http://www.phoenyx.net/listowners/
