
How is something like this going to affect The Phoenyx? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4684942.stm > AOL and Yahoo plan to charge fees of up to one cent (US) per message > to those that sign up for the service. > > Paying the fees means that messages will not go through spam filters, > are guaranteed to arrive and will bear a stamp of authenticity. > > Both AOL and Yahoo said they would start offering the service within > the next few months. I can't help feeling this is not going to be a good thing. Not only will it mean most end-users receiving *more* spam, only this time from big business rather than small-time crooks, but it could easily make life a lot harder for small mailing list operators such as The Phoenyx.
On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Tim Hall wrote: TH>I can't help feeling this is not going to be a good thing. Not only TH>will it mean most end-users receiving *more* spam, only this time from TH>big business rather than small-time crooks, but it could easily make TH>life a lot harder for small mailing list operators such as The Phoenyx. I've been watching the stuff with a mixture of amusement and sadness. I doubt it'll fly, but if it does, no worries: bypassing spam filters is *way* easier than writing them. And I'm very, very, very good at writing them. Plus, the average AOL/Yahoo user will be inclined to use the web-forum version anyway. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net
--- "Karen J. Cravens"wrote: > On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Tim Hall wrote: > > TH>I can't help feeling this is not going to be a good thing. Not > only > TH>will it mean most end-users receiving *more* spam, only this time > from > TH>big business rather than small-time crooks, but it could easily > make > TH>life a lot harder for small mailing list operators such as The > Phoenyx. > > I've been watching the stuff with a mixture of amusement and sadness. > I > doubt it'll fly, but if it does, no worries: bypassing spam filters > is > *way* easier than writing them. And I'm very, very, very good at > writing > them. > > Plus, the average AOL/Yahoo user will be inclined to use the > web-forum > version anyway. Phoenyx has a webforum version? Andrew > -- > Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net >
On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Andrew Janssen wrote: AJ>Phoenyx has a webforum version? Firehawk, the current software, doesn't. (It just has the Mhonarc archives, such as they are.) Gamehawk, the in-progress version, does. Apropos the subject line: if I hadn't had to spend so much time fighting spam, Gamehawk would have been finished about five years ago. We wouldn't be having to buy a new server just to cope with load, either. -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net
Karen J. Cravens wrote: > I've been watching the stuff with a mixture of amusement and sadness. I > doubt it'll fly, but if it does, no worries: bypassing spam filters is > *way* easier than writing them. And I'm very, very, very good at writing > them. I've always maintained that the only way to stop spam would be to nuke Florida. Since it's claimed that the spammers are concentrated in one or two places, it might not be necessary to take out the whole state....
On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Tim Hall wrote: TH>I've always maintained that the only way to stop spam would be to nuke TH>Florida. TH> TH>Since it's claimed that the spammers are concentrated in one or two TH>places, it might not be necessary to take out the whole state.... A small EMP in/over Clearwater would take out most spam AND most scams, yes. The original residents, though, have done such a valiant job of trying to hang onto their town, though, that I'm rethinking the actual nuking thing. It's not their fault the whole Sender: thing got neglected. (Really. If Sender: had been enforced, and mail clients had actually paid attention to it, things would never have reached this point.) -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net
Karen J. Cravens wrote: > The original residents, though, have done such a valiant job of trying to > hang onto their town, though, that I'm rethinking the actual nuking thing. > It's not their fault the whole Sender: thing got neglected. (Really. If > Sender: had been enforced, and mail clients had actually paid attention to > it, things would never have reached this point.) What's the whole Sender: thing, and what would have happened had it not been neglected? I've always wondered whether the proliferation of spam is partly because there are a lot of companies making money out of spam filtering, who would all go out of business if anyone devised a magic bullet to prevent spam.
On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Tim Hall wrote: TH>What's the whole Sender: thing, and what would have happened had it not TH>been neglected? Spam was successful because the From: line is easy to spoof. Period, full stop. Initially, that was a feature, not a bug. You were supposed to be able to send mail from, say, a friend's house, and have it still say "From: Me@my.house" But to indicate where it really came from, you were supposed to say "Sender: Friend@friends.house" *That* was the address that was always, always supposed to be legit. But nobody bothered checking it, in two senses: neither friends.house nor the recipient ever checked to make sure the outbound mail had a proper sender attached, and the recipient's mail software never bothered to indicate "Hey, this says it's from Tim, but he sent it from a friend's house." Now, even if Sender was enforced it would be quite possible to forge From: lines... but because the whole thing was so horribly, horribly lax it gave spammers a huge head start before anybody really realized just what a scale it was happening on. TH>I've always wondered whether the proliferation of spam is partly because TH>there are a lot of companies making money out of spam filtering, who TH>would all go out of business if anyone devised a magic bullet to prevent TH>spam. Oh, definitely. Not just spam filtering, but pink contracts... providing connectivity to spammers is *very* lucrative. There's gotta be some serious bribery involved in the FTC/FDA, too... most spam is fraudulent, and plenty of vigilantes have tracked spam back to its source and had the agencies go "Yeah, so?" -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net
> I've always wondered whether the proliferation of spam is partly because > there are a lot of companies making money out of spam filtering, who > would all go out of business if anyone devised a magic bullet to prevent > spam. There is no magic bullet but, yes, the anti-spam companies (that is, the ones that are *solely* anti-spam) do have a vested interest in keeping spam going. And there have been some verified links between them and spammers, links that are usually hushed up very quickly. Back in 2000 or 2001 my then boss found and verified that at least two of commercial black-list services were funded by and/or provided funding to spammers. He brought this up at a computer security conference, the reactions ranged from "We suspected as much." to "Yeah, we found the same stuff. Can't do anything about it." -- Michael Feldhusen mike_f@io.com caulay@gmail.com
On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Michael Feldhusen wrote: MF>Back in 2000 or 2001 my then boss found and verified that at least two of MF>commercial black-list services were funded by and/or provided funding to MF>spammers. He brought this up at a computer security conference, the MF>reactions ranged from "We suspected as much." to "Yeah, we found the same MF>stuff. Can't do anything about it." I have to admit, I've gone as far as thinking "Dang, I've learned a *lot* about spam filtering. I could make good money crossing over." I'm sure both sides consider that, and that it's not uncommon for it to actually happen. Had I acquired my spam knowledge for an employer instead of defending something I love, that might actually be a temptation for me. Oh, amusing aside: Gizmodo doesn't have too much to say in the article that isn't in the headline, but I like the picture: http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/software/aolyahoo-email-tax-to-stop-spam-why-it-wont-work-152917.php -- Karen J. Cravens silver@phoenyx.net